50 years of expansion and where are we?

[Anita Bath]

Going back 50 years how has the RFLs expansion worked?  Which of the many teams added to the league are still with us and how are they doing in terms of sustainability. Prior to the introduction of Fulham there were 30 teams in the professional game and this had been the case since the mid 1950s. We now have 34 teams across 3 divisions. A net increase of 4 clubs.

We now have two French based teams…both based on existing clubs so essentially a transfer of teams from the french league to the UK league.  So not expanding the game

We have London (Broncos)….had considerable success (including this year) but never achieved a permanent location resulting in struggles to maintain a reasonable fan base and unable to play an entire seasons home games in one location.

We have North Wales Crusaders….another team who have had reasonable playing success but never achieved a permanent location  and unable to play an entire seasons home games in one location.

We have Midlands Hurricanes, a team that have upped roots and moved lock stock and barrel to another city and do not play all their home games in one location

We have Sheffield Eagles…another team with  reasonable playing record and a short period of being a great success but continually moved location. Hopefully their latest move back to Sheffield will be their last.

And we have Penryn (cornwall)….only 2 years in but appear to have a solid playing base around which to develop a growing fan base.

Of course their have been many more clubs that have entered the league but failed to last the course, some being announced but never playing a game (Northampton, Ottawa) Others who have come and gone quickly and some who stayed the course for a while but ultimately gave up (newcastle, carlisle, both having moved location)

What an absolute mess this is….save the french clubs ( not development, transfers) not one solid club has emerged.

Hang your heads in shame RFL.

[The Lad]

We need to expand the game but all attempts have fallen short or failed. There seems to be a desire to take our sport to the next level, braking free from the heartland and becoming a big sport nationally. From a fans perspective there looks to be no long term plan, the RFL set up a team but give no thought to how it will work.

[ben]

Call me old fashioned, why do people preach about spreading the game, agree with anita it hasn't worked, lets look after our own, if the game ever gets that good people will come to us! 

[Blind side johnny]

4 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Going back 50 years how has the RFLs expansion worked?  Which of the many teams added to the league are still with us and how are they doing in terms of sustainability. Prior to the introduction of Fulham there were 30 teams in the professional game and this had been the case since the mid 1950s. We now have 34 teams across 3 divisions. A net increase of 4 clubs.

We now have two French based teams…both based on existing clubs so essentially a transfer of teams from the french league to the UK league.  So not expanding the game

We have London (Broncos)….had considerable success (including this year) but never achieved a permanent location resulting in struggles to maintain a reasonable fan base and unable to play an entire seasons home games in one location.

We have North Wales Crusaders….another team who have had reasonable playing success but never achieved a permanent location  and unable to play an entire seasons home games in one location.

We have Midlands Hurricanes, a team that have upped roots and moved lock stock and barrel to another city and do not play all their home games in one location

We have Sheffield Eagles…another team with  reasonable playing record and a short period of being a great success but continually moved location. Hopefully their latest move back to Sheffield will be their last.

And we have Penryn (cornwall)….only 2 years in but appear to have a solid playing base around which to develop a growing fan base.

Of course their have been many more clubs that have entered the league but failed to last the course, some being announced but never playing a game (Northampton, Ottawa) Others who have come and gone quickly and some who stayed the course for a while but ultimately gave up (newcastle, carlisle, both having moved location)

What an absolute mess this is….save the french clubs ( not development, transfers) not one solid club has emerged.

Hang your heads in shame RFL.

Whilst, on the other hand, the heartland clubs are thriving thanks to having had 130 years to get their houses in order.

[Anita Bath]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

Whilst, on the other hand, the heartland clubs are thriving thanks to having had 130 years to get their houses in order.

How many clubs who were playing during that period of stability have we lost….blackpool liverpool and bramley. I think that suggests that the clubs around then have been sustainable, and while several are perhaps currently struggling, to what extent has that been caused by these continual failed attempts at expansion and the decisions made on structural issues (eg three divisions) arising from expansion and the associated decisions on the distribution of league funds.

Compare that to post war expansion, Workington, Whitehaven, Doncaster still playing in the same locations after 70 years with only Blackpool having gone under.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Anita Bath
incorrect information

[Anita Bath]

5 hours ago, The Lad said:

We need to expand the game but all attempts have fallen short or failed. There seems to be a desire to take our sport to the next level, braking free from the heartland and becoming a big sport nationally. From a fans perspective there looks to be no long term plan, the RFL set up a team but give no thought to how it will work.

When expansion worked, Workington, Whitehaven, (outside of the heartlands incidentally), it was based on locations with a thriving amateur game and associated fan base. Different to plonking a brand new professional team in an area new to the game.

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, Anita Bath said:

How many clubs who were playing during that period of stability have we lost….blackpool liverpool and bramley. I think that suggests that the clubs around then have been sustainable, and while several are perhaps currently struggling, to what extent has that been caused by these continual failed attempts at expansion and the decisions made on structural issues (eg three divisions) arising from expansion and the associated decisions on the distribution of league funds.

Compare that to post war expansion, Workington, Whitehaven, Doncaster still playing in the same locations after 70 years with only Blackpool having gone under.

 

Belle Vue, but that is nitpicking.

[Anita Bath]

that period of stability I referred to was 50 years ago, when belle vue was already long gone. My reference to Workington, Whitehaven, Doncaster and Blackpool was about post war expansion clubs. Belle Vue do not fit in that category.

[Blind side johnny]

On 15/10/2023 at 23:51, Anita Bath said:

that period of stability I referred to was 50 years ago, when belle vue was already long gone. My reference to Workington, Whitehaven, Doncaster and Blackpool was about post war expansion clubs. Belle Vue do not fit in that category.

Your argument is very selective.

I would argue that many of the "heartland" clubs have contributed very little to the sport over the past 50 years, mine and yours included. Survival isn't really a contribution to success, is it?

[Excolt 1]

Wasn’t there a meeting yesterday at the RFL to decide the format for Championship and League One structure. I can’t find anything in the press.

[ornit4ever]

Not sure that Newcastle have given up on competing next season as there’s a meeting planned next week with everyone concerned with the club including their loyal supporters. Would dearly love them to continue, in this area of the northeast, which is a hotbed for sport and hopefully rugby league.

[Excolt 1]

Apparently there are 5 proposals for League structure next week. One of them is adding 4 Super League A teams to League One. If that happens I’m finished with game.

[sheddingswasus]

Ridiculous suggestion to be honest. Once again the selfish clubs in SL seem to want it all their own way. 

[Blind side johnny]

5 hours ago, Excolt 1 said:

Apparently there are 5 proposals for League structure next week. One of them is adding 4 Super League A teams to League One. If that happens I’m finished with game.

I also heard this but that they wouldn't actually be part of the league, just serious friendlies. This would effectively give all C1 clubs four extra home games against SL second teams - more experience for both sets of players, something to entertain the home spectators and maybe an extra hundred or so on the gate from visiting fans. It wouldn't attract me to be honest but it could be a reasonable one season only compromise.

[Anita Bath]

Yes, time to pack up and go home if thats the chosen ‘solution’. 

[glemiln]

16 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

just serious friendlies. This would effectively give all C1 clubs four extra home games against SL second teams - more experience for both sets of players, something to entertain the home spectators

A second meaningful competition would help!
The RFL/IMG has to get a grip and ensure, preferably with majority cooperation from clubs ( below Super League), that there is a second meaningful competition to attract players, spectators, perhaps new clubs and commercial interests for a new era.  Surely, it cannot be that difficult!

[Billy King's Boots]

23 hours ago, Excolt 1 said:

Apparently there are 5 proposals for League structure next week. One of them is adding 4 Super League A teams to League One. If that happens I’m finished with game.

This happens in Scottish football.

 

[Anita Bath]

They are not in the Scottish leagues though are they? They seem to be in the lowland league ( equivalent of national league south).

[Derwent Parker]

On 22/10/2023 at 11:12, Excolt 1 said:

Apparently there are 5 proposals for League structure next week. One of them is adding 4 Super League A teams to League One. If that happens I’m finished with game.

As long as they stop Dual Reg and short term loans permanently

and no promotion to any A teams

Season long loans only

Should not be able to play for 2 different teams in a season - unless a proper transfer.

 

[Rovers13]

3 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

As long as they stop Dual Reg and short term loans permanently

and no promotion to any A teams

Season long loans only

Should not be able to play for 2 different teams in a season - unless a proper transfer.

 

DR is terrible should never of been brought in skews league table too, as one week you get a player beat say Batley week after don’t get him lose to swinton, horrible it is.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rovers13

[Derwent Parker]

18 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

I also heard this but that they wouldn't actually be part of the league, just serious friendlies. This would effectively give all C1 clubs four extra home games against SL second teams - more experience for both sets of players, something to entertain the home spectators and maybe an extra hundred or so on the gate from visiting fans. It wouldn't attract me to be honest but it could be a reasonable one season only compromise.

Yes that will be fair when - [to use Wigan as example] 

most teams play Wigan A - full of Kids and then one team plays Wigan A with French and Field playing [coming back from injury] and run riot.

JUST AN EXAMPLE - of what could happen in that scenario

[Billy King's Boots]

1 hour ago, Anita Bath said:

They are not in the Scottish leagues though are they? They seem to be in the lowland league ( equivalent of national league south).

Correct. But reserve teams play in a competitive league at a lower level - and they can't get promoted.

[Billy King's Boots]

20 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

I also heard this but that they wouldn't actually be part of the league, just serious friendlies. This would effectively give all C1 clubs four extra home games against SL second teams - more experience for both sets of players, something to entertain the home spectators and maybe an extra hundred or so on the gate from visiting fans. It wouldn't attract me to be honest but it could be a reasonable one season only compromise.

You make a good point. The RFL can't restrucure for 2024 given that clubs are already recruiting for the Championship/L1 - so an interim structure is needed for next year, so that all clubs know what they're playing for (remember a few years back where they decided to relegate more clubs to League 1 half way through the season? Hornets finished in a position that would have kept us up in any other year).

As a one year interim, I'd be open to reserve teams playing - but, for me, they'd have to be branded as discrete entities (i.e. not play under their parent club name).

Edited October 23, 2023 by Billy King's Boots

[Blind side johnny]

5 hours ago, glemiln said:

A second meaningful competition would help!
The RFL/IMG has to get a grip and ensure, preferably with majority cooperation from clubs ( below Super League), that there is a second meaningful competition to attract players, spectators, perhaps new clubs and commercial interests for a new era.  Surely, it cannot be that difficult!

There are discussions about a rejigged 1895 cup; these discussions were taking place before the Newcastle blow. It is suggested, but not yet agreed, that clubs would be formed into groups of 3 or 4 with home and away matches played and the winners plus others (?) going on to a knock out stage.

[Rovers13]

11 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

There are discussions about a rejigged 1895 cup; these discussions were taking place before the Newcastle blow. It is suggested, but not yet agreed, that clubs would be formed into groups of 3 or 4 with home and away matches played and the winners plus others (?) going on to a knock out stage.

That’s the best idea I’ve heard so far tbh. Keeps league one going and fev bulls etc visiting will fill their coffers too, better than reserve sides or conferences.