Dual Reg Link Ups This Season

[SUPERSTUD]

1 hour ago, donald said:

DR worked well at whitehaven for a couple of seasons with St Helens.  We had players like swift forster clough playing nearly every week and others like Gardner makinson percival walker greenwood and others playing now and again . Only downside when it ended we struggled to get locals to sign for us as players had been getting dropped to accommodate saints players it ###### a lot of players off

I am firmly on the side of the local players or the players that have officially signed on and fully committed to any club from the start of the season. DR IMHO is a very divisive system wide open to abuse and subsequently causing irreparable damage to the long term future of the game. It is an extremely short sighted process. Some players have been performing well and are suddenly dropped, stood down or booted out for a supposed SL Superstar on a short term basis requiring game time etc. Then lo and behold local/signed player is suddenly required to come back in. Some of the guys are on garbage money and training three times per week whilst holding a regular job down. Wouldn’t be for me and I would be ofski. DR is a load of short sighted garbage.

[The Blues Ox]

4 hours ago, dealwithit said:

The thing that makes no sense is SL clubs having a reserves team and dual reg. 

It makes perfect sense as the reserves still give them the chance to snap up any junior who has even looked at a rugby ball and promise their parents game time for their kids and untold riches for the player that they are about to become. They then get to play those players at a level that they should be playing at by using DR without the risk of losing those players permanantly. Like I said previously, its a brilliant system for the self interest which is SL.

[Kirmonds pouch]

What a load of old tosh, with added tosh. Clearly people have a very different idea as to how DR works than I do. Nobody is forcing Championship clubs in a DR agreement, to take players they don't want. Wigan can't make Wakefield play one of their players, unless Wakefield want too. A Championship club could be in a DR agreement, but not actually use it if they had an injury free season. However, that's unlikely, and as most Championship clubs don't have a reserve team, then they almost certainly will need access DR players. These mythical youngsters who are missing out are almost certainly doing so because they are either not good enough, or not ready, or simply don't exist.

Only a chip on the shoulder fan can't see the obvious benefits, if it's done right. And the fact is that it falls onto the Championship club to make the right calls. All the SL team can do is offer players, they can't insert them at will. People need to get a grip, or pay twice as much for their tickets so that clubs can run squads of forty plus.

[SUPERSTUD]

2 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

It makes perfect sense as the reserves still give them the chance to snap up any junior who has even looked at a rugby ball and promise their parents game time for their kids and untold riches for the player that they are about to become. They then get to play those players at a level that they should be playing at by using DR without the risk of losing those players permanantly. Like I said previously, its a brilliant system for the self interest which is SL.

For me the issue is this. Deep down SL clubs have no desire to ultimately fund and compete in a testing and meaningful reserves competition. In an ideal world a reserves competition should be mandatory. However it comes back to our sport being stuck in its ways with clubs being quite simply self serving. They do not want a reserves competition and never have done. They would rather abuse the DR system instead on the pretext that it is better for THEIR players.

[SUPERSTUD]

3 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

What a load of old tosh, with added tosh. Clearly people have a very different idea as to how DR works than I do. Nobody is forcing Championship clubs in a DR agreement, to take players they don't want. Wigan can't make Wakefield play one of their players, unless Wakefield want too. A Championship club could be in a DR agreement, but not actually use it if they had an injury free season. However, that's unlikely, and as most Championship clubs don't have a reserve team, then they almost certainly will need access DR players. These mythical youngsters who are missing out are almost certainly doing so because they are either not good enough, or not ready, or simply don't exist.

Only a chip on the shoulder fan can't see the obvious benefits, if it's done right. And the fact is that it falls onto the Championship club to make the right calls. All the SL team can do is offer players, they can't insert them at will. People need to get a grip, or pay twice as much for their tickets so that clubs can run squads of forty plus.

The key element is - If it’s done right.

[Kirmonds pouch]

4 hours ago, dealwithit said:

The thing that makes no sense is SL clubs having a reserves team and dual reg. 

But that's not how it works. You do realise that even if a SL club does have a reserve team, it's not a separate entity, and it never has been. All reserve teams are made up of last year Academy players, ex-Academy players on part time deals, first team fringe players, trialists. There are not 30+ players kicking around who are purely reserve players. That's why reserve games are often called off, because teams simply run out of bodies. DR is primarily a way too allow fringe players and quality youngsters the chance to play in a comp that is of higher quality and intensity than the reserve comp, or the Academy. So it does make sense.

[daz39]

Huddersfield don't, i believe our coaching staff decided to stop it as it wasn't proving beneficial in our players developments, choosing to have them out on loan in a proper club environment instead.

[SUPERSTUD]

45 minutes ago, daz39 said:

Huddersfield don't, i believe our coaching staff decided to stop it as it wasn't proving beneficial in our players developments, choosing to have them out on loan in a proper club environment instead.

TBH I don’t have a problem with a long term loan. Let’s say Huddersfield player at least a year off knocking on first team door. Requires development in Championship for arguments sake. No problem at least there is some form of longevity in it. It’s the constant dropping in and out of DR players that does me. 

[iffleyox]

1 hour ago, SUPERSTUD said:

TBH I don’t have a problem with a long term loan. Let’s say Huddersfield player at least a year off knocking on first team door. Requires development in Championship for arguments sake. No problem at least there is some form of longevity in it. It’s the constant dropping in and out of DR players that does me. 

Exactly - loans are different, young player gets sent to wherever for a few months or a season and you can integrate them. It’s the parachuting in at the last minute and demanding they have game time that’s damaging 

[Kirmonds pouch]

20 hours ago, SUPERSTUD said:

The key element is - If it’s done right.

Exactly, but that's the fault of the clubs, most specifically their coaching staff. There are two good reasons for a Championship club to use DR. One is if they are suffering an extreme injury crisis, most specifically if it's a certain position. The other is a more long term approach, where the DR player is of real interest to the recipient. Thats either a player unlikely to play SL that season and thus available long term, ie a long term loan. Or, a player that the SL club feels they are unlikely to re-sign, but may be of interest to the Championship team as a future signing. Especially useful the the Championship clubs with a real chance of promotion. Just because a player can't break in at Wigan for example, doesn't mean they can't make it big elsewhere.

Where it's wrong is when a player is just inserted for a couple of games and then expected to perform miracles to revive a failing team. Although Trinity were not a DR recipients last season, that was exactly what we were guilty of at times. Don't blame the system, blame the user imo.

[The Blues Ox]

9 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Exactly, but that's the fault of the clubs, most specifically their coaching staff. There are two good reasons for a Championship club to use DR. One is if they are suffering an extreme injury crisis, most specifically if it's a certain position. The other is a more long term approach, where the DR player is of real interest to the recipient. Thats either a player unlikely to play SL that season and thus available long term, ie a long term loan. Or, a player that the SL club feels they are unlikely to re-sign, but may be of interest to the Championship team as a future signing. Especially useful the the Championship clubs with a real chance of promotion. Just because a player can't break in at Wigan for example, doesn't mean they can't make it big elsewhere.

Where it's wrong is when a player is just inserted for a couple of games and then expected to perform miracles to revive a failing team. Although Trinity were not a DR recipients last season, that was exactly what we were guilty of at times. Don't blame the system, blame the user imo.

You miss a 3rd and very important reason, which is to save money. For my own team I think we have used DR pretty decently overall. We have a number of players in our squad currently who spent time with us on DR and gave both parties a try before you buy option. We also turned down some players who we had chance to sign because of that same chance and how they were at the club when on DR. I think the system is narrow minded and fuelled by self interest but again if you are a SL club then its total madness not to use the system to your advantage.

[JonM]

To add to the previous post about who was partnered with who, Castleford have confirmed the link-up with Batley, and Huddersfield announced partnership with Dewsbury. Still no dual-reg partner announced by St. Helens, Leigh, Salford or Hull FC.

[The Blues Ox]

17 hours ago, daz39 said:

Huddersfield don't, i believe our coaching staff decided to stop it as it wasn't proving beneficial in our players developments, choosing to have them out on loan in a proper club environment instead.

Must have realised it was too good an opportunity to pass up again.

[JonM]

32 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Must have realised it was too good an opportunity to pass up again.

Indeed - https://dewsburyrams.co.uk/2023/11/27/giants-dual-registration-agreement/ - announced earlier in the week.

[The Phantom Horseman]

1 hour ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Exactly, but that's the fault of the clubs, most specifically their coaching staff. There are two good reasons for a Championship club to use DR. One is if they are suffering an extreme injury crisis, most specifically if it's a certain position. The other is a more long term approach, where the DR player is of real interest to the recipient. Thats either a player unlikely to play SL that season and thus available long term, ie a long term loan. Or, a player that the SL club feels they are unlikely to re-sign, but may be of interest to the Championship team as a future signing. Especially useful the the Championship clubs with a real chance of promotion. Just because a player can't break in at Wigan for example, doesn't mean they can't make it big elsewhere.

Where it's wrong is when a player is just inserted for a couple of games and then expected to perform miracles to revive a failing team. Although Trinity were not a DR recipients last season, that was exactly what we were guilty of at times. Don't blame the system, blame the user imo.

I disagree with a couple of aspects of this.

Firstly, saying one good reason for using DR is an extreme injury crisis, most specifically if it's a certain position. That's surely more a reason to hit the loan market - where you can target a club with players available that specifically meets your club's needs - than DR, where you're dependent on whether 1 club has players free in the positions you need.

As for blaming the user rather than the system, I'd say the opposite. You're always going to struggle to get anything other than short-term availability either for DR or loans because of the attrition rate that all SL squads suffer during a season. Ask fans of any Championship club and they'll tell you that even supposed "season-long loans" tend to be that in name only, with no-recall clauses increasingly a rarity. And the minumum loan period is now 14 days, so there's actually not much difference between loans and DR these days, other than the one outlined above where you can pick and choose the clubs you target for loanees. So saying it's wrong to just bring players in for a couple of games is a bit naive, because quite often that's all you'll get before they're hauled back by the parent club.

So for me it's a tighter set of rules that are needed, perhaps restricting DR to players under the age of, say, 25/26, or players who have played fewer than a certain number of SL games, and maybe restrict the number of DR players from say 4 to 2. Until that happens, it's understandable that Championship clubs are going to take advantage of being offered better-quality players than they may feel they have at present, especially in the current financial climate where TV money/central funding has been decimated (in the literal sense of the word in some cases!) and they can't compete with SL clubs for these fringe-type players.

[dealwithit]

On 30/11/2023 at 22:35, phiggins said:

I think the SL reserves only play once a month, or something like that. So we seem to be keeping one bad thing (DR), to compensate for doing the good thing (reserves) badly. DR seems even more stupid now you can do 2 week loans now.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. 
 

With IMG points up for grabs for performance, perhaps we’ll get to a point of no more DR as bottom SL clubs are worried about advancing B grade clubs.  

[George1992]

 

On 29/11/2023 at 09:49, JonM said:

Wigan - Wakefield Trinity

Catalans - was Toulouse in 2023

St. Helens - Was Swinton in 2023, haven't seen any announcement for 2024

Hull KR - Featherstone R

Leigh - Rochdale H in 2023, haven't seen any announcement

Warrington - Widnes

Salford - ?

Leeds - Halifax

Huddersfield - ?

Hull - was Newcastle Thunder in 2023, haven't seen any announcement

Castleford - expected to be Batley

London - nope

Not sure where you got that from but Featherstone is Leeds's feeder team. 

I disagree with those who don't like the idea. They need to see that the system allows those players who struggle to get in the the SL team to have the opportunity to get some game time with the other team whilst they get to strengthen up their own squad.  

[George1992]

 

On 29/11/2023 at 09:49, JonM said:

Wigan - Wakefield Trinity

Catalans - was Toulouse in 2023

St. Helens - Was Swinton in 2023, haven't seen any announcement for 2024

Hull KR - Featherstone R

Leigh - Rochdale H in 2023, haven't seen any announcement

Warrington - Widnes

Salford - ?

Leeds - Halifax

Huddersfield - ?

Hull - was Newcastle Thunder in 2023, haven't seen any announcement

Castleford - expected to be Batley

London - nope

Not sure where you got that from but Featherstone is Leeds's feeder team. 

I disagree with those who don't like the idea. They need to see that the system allows those players who struggle to get in the the SL team to have the opportunity to get some game time with the other team whilst they get to strengthen up their own squad.  

[George1992]

 

On 29/11/2023 at 09:49, JonM said:

Wigan - Wakefield Trinity

Catalans - was Toulouse in 2023

St. Helens - Was Swinton in 2023, haven't seen any announcement for 2024

Hull KR - Featherstone R

Leigh - Rochdale H in 2023, haven't seen any announcement

Warrington - Widnes

Salford - ?

Leeds - Halifax

Huddersfield - ?

Hull - was Newcastle Thunder in 2023, haven't seen any announcement

Castleford - expected to be Batley

London - nope

Not sure where you got that from but Featherstone is Leeds's feeder team. 

I disagree with those who don't like the idea. They need to see that the system allows those players who struggle to get in the the SL team to have the opportunity to get some game time with the other team whilst they get to strengthen up their own squad.  

[Click]

22 minutes ago, George1992 said:

 

Not sure where you got that from but Featherstone is Leeds's feeder team. 

I disagree with those who don't like the idea. They need to see that the system allows those players who struggle to get in the the SL team to have the opportunity to get some game time with the other team whilst they get to strengthen up their own squad.  

Don't think Featherstone & Leeds have had a formal partnership for a few seasons now.

[Harry Stottle]

On 30/11/2023 at 12:59, donald said:

DR worked well at whitehaven for a couple of seasons with St Helens.  We had players like swift forster clough playing nearly every week and others like Gardner makinson percival walker greenwood and others playing now and again . Only downside when it ended we struggled to get locals to sign for us as players had been getting dropped to accommodate saints players it ###### a lot of players off

Exactly and quite rightly so,

And then the clubs start moaning that lads don't want to play for us, when all the while the clubs just want their cake and h'penny.

[Harry Stottle]

On 30/11/2023 at 14:35, Kirmonds pouch said:

What a load of old tosh, with added tosh. Clearly people have a very different idea as to how DR works than I do. Nobody is forcing Championship clubs in a DR agreement, to take players they don't want. Wigan can't make Wakefield play one of their players, unless Wakefield want too. A Championship club could be in a DR agreement, but not actually use it if they had an injury free season. However, that's unlikely, and as most Championship clubs don't have a reserve team, then they almost certainly will need access DR players. These mythical youngsters who are missing out are almost certainly doing so because they are either not good enough, or not ready, or simply don't exist.

Only a chip on the shoulder fan can't see the obvious benefits, if it's done right. And the fact is that it falls onto the Championship club to make the right calls. All the SL team can do is offer players, they can't insert them at will. People need to get a grip, or pay twice as much for their tickets so that clubs can run squads of forty plus.

Well I am a supporter of one such club like yours who should not have needed the services of a SL club to 'donate' player's on a ad hock basis, we had Saints you have Wigan, don’t kid yourself for one minute that Wigan like Saints were are thinking of anyone else but themselves with this situation.

Going forward KP can you see yourself stood/sat at a game cheering on these  guests who may be there one week knowing full well that they are nothing whatsoever to do with your club, they may wear the same colour of shirt and go through the same motions but at the end of the day they are nothing, zilch, zero, sweet #### Adams to do with Wakefield Trinity and their heart is elsewhere, I absolutely hated it when we played such player's and I could not identify with them.

That is not a chip on the shoulder attitude as you put it, that is the attitude of a fan who would sooner his club does well on its own merits without outside influence and moreso for a club who should be able to stand on its own two feet, at end of the day it is the owner and coach who do not have enough faith in their own abilities to provide the team for the task ahead of them.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[The Blues Ox]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well I am a supporter of one such club like yours who should not have needed the services of a SL club to 'donate' player's on a ad hock basis, we had Saints you have Wigan, don’t kid yourself for one minute that Wigan like Saints were are thinking of anyone else but themselves with this situation.

Going forward KP can you see yourself stood/sat at a game cheering on these  guests who may be there one week knowing full well that they are nothing whatsoever to do with your club, they may wear the same colour of shirt and go through the same motions but at the end of the day they are nothing, zilch, zero, sweet #### Adams to do with Wakefield Trinity and their heart is elsewhere, I absolutely hated it when we played such player's and I could not identify with them.

That is not a chip on the shoulder attitude as you put it, that is the attitude of a fan who would sooner his club does well on its own merits without outside influence and moreso for a club who should be able to stand on its own two feet, at end of the day it is the owner and coach who do not have enough faith in their own abilities to provide the team for the task ahead of them.

Had arguments over this with a number of Fax fans over the years and I do not like this system one little bit but I am of the opinion that I will support whoever is playing for my team. We have a big thing at Fax where people want local players playing for us and to be honest I couldn't give a toss where players are from and as long as they are seen to be giving their all they will do for me.

[Harry Stottle]

On 30/11/2023 at 14:44, Kirmonds pouch said:

But that's not how it works. You do realise that even if a SL club does have a reserve team, it's not a separate entity, and it never has been. All reserve teams are made up of last year Academy players, ex-Academy players on part time deals, first team fringe players, trialists. There are not 30+ players kicking around who are purely reserve players. That's why reserve games are often called off, because teams simply run out of bodies. DR is primarily a way too allow fringe players and quality youngsters the chance to play in a comp that is of higher quality and intensity than the reserve comp, or the Academy. So it does make sense.

For those of us who are of a certain age, it was once a joy to attend 'A' team fixtures - to give it it's proper title - and they were proper structured leagues.

It was a proper rugby league, played with pride in your club, and what a learning ground it was for young players, the intensity full on with a mix of seasoned pro's, first teamers returning from injury, or those out of favour for the first team with something to prove, others who would not have made the first team but their career was in the 'A' teams and they couldn't have played any harder, and of course the wannabes, who if they were any good would be targeted by the hard men of the opposition and protected by their old pro teammates they either survived or drifted off.

So when the mention of reserves comes up, I think of what once was not this namby pamby excuse we are running today, there are those who say everything is much better today and there are those living in the past, but believe me if we still had the same system along with academies with all a clubs player's kept 'in house' training under the direction of the clubs coach ready and aware of game plans to step up, there would be no need whatsoever for this present day abomination of DR and the game would be in a much healthier state for it.

 

[JonM]

7 hours ago, George1992 said:

Not sure where you got that from but Featherstone is Leeds's feeder team. 

I got it from the announcements in the last week or two about Leeds partnership with Halifax and Hull KR's with Featherstone.

Leeds had dual reg with Bradford this past season, not Fev.