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Posted
1 hour ago, AB90 said:

There are definitely doubts as to whether Welsby is a top 5 player in the world. Your underestimating just how good that is.

A lot of Wigan fans would say Sam Tomkins was a better player than Welsby at the same age with people at the time saying the same thing as what your saying about Welsby. Tomkins was never a top 5, 10 or 20 player in the world which was proven when he played the NRL (He was being compared to a prime Billy Slater before his NRL stint).

Before Luke Thompson went to the NRL there were people in this forum suggesting he was the best prop in the world (he made the world team of the year in 2018 & 2019). That was also proven to be very incorrect.

My point is, it is very hard to judge SL players when they don’t play in the competition where 95% of the players they are being compared against play in. 

I love Welsby as a player however my only doubt is his athleticism especially at full back. Not saying he’s unathletic or anything like that just saying that he doesn’t have those élite athletic traits that majority of NRL fullbacks have. However I would say the same applies to Dylan Edwards & Clint Cutherson and they are both very good. 

 

About Jack Welsby as a player, for me he couldn’t get much better if he tried.

If I was in a lab creating a rugby league player I would probably come up with Welsby.

He is 22 years old, 6,3, 90 KG and he really has no weaknesses in his game.

Firstly he is physically superb, tall, strong, agile and quick. He has the ability to break tackles like it’s nothing and can reach some really quick pace when he gets away.

Though being a physically gifted fullback, he has the vision and IQ of a world class halfback. He’s abilty to throw long passes and make kicks in behind to his winger is a truly remarkable skill, he has already mastered the short side play book at 22. If a centre or Winger drops back or bites in for just a second Welsby has the answer and punishes everyone so quick. Though he is great at this he often gets some passes wrong and this the part of his game he gets the most slack.

Also about IQ, Welsby is exceptional at supporting the play, as any great full back is and he also absolutely world class at offloading the ball.

Combined with this, Welsby has began to master the art of a fullback, his positioning is fantastic and has become more and more comfortable under the high ball this season. This Season Welsby has improved even more and his tackling and defensive positioning has taken leaps and bounds. So many times this season have wingers gotten overlaps in the corner but Welsby is there to make the try saving tackle.

Also this is pretty commonly said but something else I admire about him is his ability forget the past and keep finding ways to break past the defence. His work rate is second to none and if you are playing him, even if makes a mistake or two it’s almost guaranteed he is going to break a hole in the defence at some point.

For Me Jack Welsby is the Eerling Haaland/Kylian Mbappe of rugby league and I don’t think I could praise him more if I tried. There is a lot of great fullbacks around but Welsby’s ability to ball play puts him above everyone else in my eyes. Also with Welsby’s work rate he will only get better and better which is scary to think about. He will go down as all time great.

(As a Roosters fan I’d rather him stay in the SL than have to come up against him in the NRL)

  • Confused 1

Posted
2 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

La Liga has Less Quality than the Prem. SL has less quality than the NRL.

St Helens are the best rugby league club in the world right now, so the Barcelona analogy is completely warranted.

I am not of the same opinion of you in terms of Welsby getting into any NRL side, he is a good player, but he still has things to work on. 

The NRL and SL are different competitions, I believe the best and even the majority of middle-ish players could make it in the NRL if they were signed and given pre seasons, etc. But the NRL is week in, week out intensity that you don't get in SL. They have more top quality players in each team then we have in SL. There is a difference between the competitions for skill sets, etc. It isn't a surprise when you look at the potential player pool that the NRL fish from compared to Super League. 

But the Messi situation really isn't comparable whatsoever. When Messi moved to Barcelona they were probabaly the biggest club in the world, alongside Real Madrid and Manchester United. The premiership has improved since then, but Messi was always getting paid huge amounts of money for Barcelona, he was never going to get huge amounts more to move to the Prem. If anything I imagine as a South American he would grow up watching more matches in La Liga then he would premiership, so that would naturally be the league he would stay in. The disparity between football leagues isn't the same in comparison between SL and the NRL.

Welsby, obviously is now on a marquee contract, so I am not sure exactly how much he is being paid, but it wouldn't be that far of a bad assumption to say he would earn more if he did go to the NRL, like any SL player would.

Posted
1 minute ago, AB90 said:

I wouldn’t call a prime Sam Tomkins as ‘just another super league player in NRL’. Each to their own though.

I didn’t suggest that him playing in SL makes him worse of better. I said that it is very hard to compare Super League players (who have never played in the NRL) on a world level when for the most part the vast majority of the worlds best rugby players don’t play in Super League. 

Strongly disagree that if you are a star in one league you would be a star in another (from SL to NRL). Do you genuinely believe that Brodie Croft, Lachlan Lam, Bevan French, Jai Field, John Asiata etc would be ‘stars’ in the NRL? 

I don’t think it’s hard to compare players from different leagues at all, just most fans are scared to do so and it isn’t common. 

Of course not every player will star in both but most of them will.

And Yes Croft, Lam, French, Field and maybe Asiata would all star in the NRL. Those first 4 guys were some of the best young prospects in the NRL and they made a move to England and have reached the potential there. People make out as if those guys wouldn’t have gotten better in the NRL and have only gotten better because of the league swap, which is just an unlikely guess. Also a lot of players move to England to find there love for the game again and when they go back to aus they are changed players. Look at Jackson Hastings who has been staring at Newcastle.

Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Click said:

I am not of the same opinion of you in terms of Welsby getting into any NRL side, he is a good player, but he still has things to work on. 

The NRL and SL are different competitions, I believe the best and even the majority of middle-ish players could make it in the NRL if they were signed and given pre seasons, etc. But the NRL is week in, week out intensity that you don't get in SL. They have more top quality players in each team then we have in SL. There is a difference between the competitions for skill sets, etc. It isn't a surprise when you look at the potential player pool that the NRL fish from compared to Super League. 

But the Messi situation really isn't comparable whatsoever. When Messi moved to Barcelona they were probabaly the biggest club in the world, alongside Real Madrid and Manchester United. The premiership has improved since then, but Messi was always getting paid huge amounts of money for Barcelona, he was never going to get huge amounts more to move to the Prem. If anything I imagine as a South American he would grow up watching more matches in La Liga then he would premiership, so that would naturally be the league he would stay in. The disparity between football leagues isn't the same in comparison between SL and the NRL.

Welsby, obviously is now on a marquee contract, so I am not sure exactly how much he is being paid, but it wouldn't be that far of a bad assumption to say he would earn more if he did go to the NRL, like any SL player would.

Firstly Welsby is the First Name on almost every team sheet in the world, should not an argument.

Don’t forget Super League is also Week and week out, (Even more games than the NRL). A lot of Aussies who come over to England say the SL is more of dog fight in the middle of the field than NRL, whilst the NRL is a much quicker game with more set plays and Structure. The SL is more loose and off the cusp which leads to a lot more space. 

The NRL is more talented, quicker and is better quality I’m not denying that, I’m just saying there is still a lot of talent and Skill in the SL and it create some tough players.

Using Another Football Analogy if I were to try and place the exact difference between the NRL and SL I would rank them about the same as the Prem Vs Serie A.

With Welsby it seems money is not very relevant to him so I don’t think that is really a factor. From the podcast the only thing he has said that was driving him to play in the NRL was him wanting to prove Aussies wrong, which strikes me as something he loves doing and is good at.

 

Edited by NRLandSL
Posted
9 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

About Jack Welsby as a player, for me he couldn’t get much better if he tried.

If I was in a lab creating a rugby league player I would probably come up with Welsby.

He is 22 years old, 6,3, 90 KG and he really has no weaknesses in his game.

Firstly he is physically superb, tall, strong, agile and quick. He has the ability to break tackles like it’s nothing and can reach some really quick pace when he gets away.

Though being a physically gifted fullback, he has the vision and IQ of a world class halfback. He’s abilty to throw long passes and make kicks in behind to his winger is a truly remarkable skill, he has already mastered the short side play book at 22. If a centre or Winger drops back or bites in for just a second Welsby has the answer and punishes everyone so quick. Though he is great at this he often gets some passes wrong and this the part of his game he gets the most slack.

Also about IQ, Welsby is exceptional at supporting the play, as any great full back is and he also absolutely world class at offloading the ball.

Combined with this, Welsby has began to master the art of a fullback, his positioning is fantastic and has become more and more comfortable under the high ball this season. This Season Welsby has improved even more and his tackling and defensive positioning has taken leaps and bounds. So many times this season have wingers gotten overlaps in the corner but Welsby is there to make the try saving tackle.

Also this is pretty commonly said but something else I admire about him is his ability forget the past and keep finding ways to break past the defence. His work rate is second to none and if you are playing him, even if makes a mistake or two it’s almost guaranteed he is going to break a hole in the defence at some point.

For Me Jack Welsby is the Eerling Haaland/Kylian Mbappe of rugby league and I don’t think I could praise him more if I tried. There is a lot of great fullbacks around but Welsby’s ability to ball play puts him above everyone else in my eyes. Also with Welsby’s work rate he will only get better and better which is scary to think about. He will go down as all time great.

(As a Roosters fan I’d rather him stay in the SL than have to come up against him in the NRL)

I agree with everything your saying however the only difference is that the NRL full backs your comparing Welsby to play against better players, better teams, bigger/stronger/faster athletes, better defences etc week in week out which has to come into consideration when making comparisons.

For instance, you say he ‘has the ability to break tackles like it’s nothing’ - do you think it’s potentially easier to showcase your tackle breaking ability when your playing against Wakefield, Castleford, Huddersfield, Salford, Leigh, Toulouse etc than opposed to NRL teams?

What do you think would happen if you put Reece Walsh, Kalyn Ponga, Latrell Mitchell etc at full back for Saint Helens? If Jai Field & Bevan French can toy with some super league defences (and win the man of steel award) then imagine the damage and impact on the league these type of players would have. 

Posted
17 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

I don’t think it’s hard to compare players from different leagues at all, just most fans are scared to do so and it isn’t common. 

Of course not every player will star in both but most of them will.

And Yes Croft, Lam, French, Field and maybe Asiata would all star in the NRL. Those first 4 guys were some of the best young prospects in the NRL and they made a move to England and have reached the potential there. People make out as if those guys wouldn’t have gotten better in the NRL and have only gotten better because of the league swap, which is just an unlikely guess. Also a lot of players move to England to find there love for the game again and when they go back to aus they are changed players. Look at Jackson Hastings who has been staring at Newcastle.

Lol I think our definition of star is just different.

Wow If you think Jackson Hastings is a star in the NRL then I’m not to sure what to say!!

Do you think that maybe French, Field, Croft, Lam etc success has anything to do with them playing in a league where the playing standard is lower? Or is that a complete coincidence and that they all would of achieved similar success had they stayed in NRL (I.e they all would be contending for the Dally M award had they stayed in the NRL)?

Posted
11 minutes ago, AB90 said:

I agree with everything your saying however the only difference is that the NRL full backs your comparing Welsby to play against better players, better teams, bigger/stronger/faster athletes, better defences etc week in week out which has to come into consideration when making comparisons.

For instance, you say he ‘has the ability to break tackles like it’s nothing’ - do you think it’s potentially easier to showcase your tackle breaking ability when your playing against Wakefield, Castleford, Huddersfield, Salford, Leigh, Toulouse etc than opposed to NRL teams?

What do you think would happen if you put Reece Walsh, Kalyn Ponga, Latrell Mitchell etc at full back for Saint Helens? If Jai Field & Bevan French can toy with some super league defences (and win the man of steel award) then imagine the damage and impact on the league these type of players would have. 

I do agree with you, Welsby’s running game would definitely not be as effective in the NRL, like I mentioned in a previous post, in the SL there tends to be a lot more space and holes to run in to than the far more structured NRL defences. Though this does not mean that Welsby would be a worser player in the NRL. 

And Yes all of those fullbacks you mentioned would all kill it in the SL, all of those guys probably have better running games than Welsby I’d say, and with the extra space they would be lethal.

Posted
10 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Lol I think our definition of star is just different.

Wow If you think Jackson Hastings is a star in the NRL then I’m not to sure what to say!!

Do you think that maybe French, Field, Croft, Lam etc success has anything to do with them playing in a league where the playing standard is lower? Or is that a complete coincidence and that they all would have achieved similar success had they stayed in NRL (I.e they all would be contending for the Dally M award had they stayed in the NRL)?

My detention of a star is top 5-7 player on a good team and like top 3 or 4 player on a worse team. Hastings has been probably the second most important player on a Newcastle team that won 12 in a row, all whilst not being able to feel his foot.

I never Said Lam, Croft, French etc beginning to star does not have anything to with the Change of League, I just mentioned that a lot of it is just the players themselves reaching there potential. Of course the SL is a lesser quality league and therefore players should usually step up there game when moving to England as there is less talent. I agree with you but to a far lesser extent.

Posted
2 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

My detention of a star is top 5-7 player on a good team and like top 3 or 4 player on a worse team. Hastings has been probably the second most important player on a Newcastle team that won 12 in a row, all whilst not being able to feel his foot.

I never Said Lam, Croft, French etc beginning to star does not have anything to with the Change of League, I just mentioned that a lot of it is just the players themselves reaching there potential. Of course the SL is a lesser quality league and therefore players should usually step up there game when moving to England as there is less talent. I agree with you but to a far lesser extent.

Very Interesting definition of ‘star’! So according to your theory there are circa 100 NRL stars and circa 60 Super League stars.

Posted (edited)

Tomkins was a better runner of the ball (he was truly sensational before his injuries slowed him down) but Welsby is the better all round player IMO.

Welsby will play in the NrL at some point I’m sure and will play against NRL players in an England shirt until then.

People used to say Roby should go to the NrL to prove himself but anybody with eyes could see he was clearly better than most of his peers in that competition. Same goes for Welsby.

It’s so important to have a meaningful international calendar to give players the opportunity to compete against the best without leaving these shores. That said I’m supportive of any player heading to the NRL as it is clearly the worlds premier competition.

Edited by FearTheVee
  • Like 4
Posted
11 hours ago, M j M said:

Good for the comp but a surprising lack of ambition for Welsby.

He's definitely the big fish in the small pond, is it a lack of ambition or of wanting to keep his high profile, personally I have always thought that if you want to be regarded as the best you have to compete with and against the best, so Messers Tedesco, Ponga, Walsh, Turbo, Mitchell, Papenhausen, Edward's and quite a few more can rest easy that their reputations are not going to be challenged.

I would have loved to have seen him perform in that kind of company.

Posted

I'm not buying into the argument that Welsby has to go to the NRL to prove himself.

Of course the NRL is a higher and more competitive standard than the Super League, anyone can see that.

But equally, I can also see that James Roby or Paul Sculthorpe were among the very best players in the world over the last 20 years.  I don't need to see them play in the NRL to recognise that, I just need to evaluate their qualities as a Rugby League player.

As for going and succeeding in the NRL, that is not always guaranteed but it is not just as simple as a player being good enough or not.  There are many factors that come into play, not least injuries – look at Ryan Hall who suffered a serious injury just before he went and had to play out of rehabilitation or Sam Tomkins who had a very good first season and was then cut down by an injury that disrupted his next two or three seasons.

Both were absolutely top quality at their best and injury disrupted spells in the NRL does not prove otherwise.

  • Like 4

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

Posted

I think it's the right move for a young lad who has years of playing ahead of him, he will get other opportunities to go to the NRL should he want to, while building his skill and knowledge of the game. 

He's still a kid, he is one of the best players in RL currently and will only get better, hopefully without and serious injury setbacks he will peak in 3 or 4 years. Its good we will get to see him build into that player.

  • Like 3
Posted
1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

You didn't need to say anything else.

Well, I could have if I didn't want to make my point but I wanted to make my point so I didn't.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

Posted
2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not until he proves it consistently in that competition he isn't.

You do not have to play in the best competition in the world to be the best player in the world. Welsby is a top 5 player in the world, he does not have to “prove himself” to any NRL fanatic. Reputation is a completely different thing to quality, SL players will never be as reputable as the Aussies but that does not mean they can’t be as good.

I thought when Jack Welsby won the WCC all this nonsense about needing to prove yourself in the NRL would be a thing of the past but I guess not.

This is the same argument Ronaldo fans to criticise Messi for not playing in the Prem.

Posted

Jack Welsby could go to the NRL at some point or he might not. If he continues at the rate he is at he will go down as one of the greatest players in history, no matter of which leagues he’s played in.

No English player should ever be pressured to move on the other side to prove themselves. It is unfair, Jack Welsby could stay at St Helens his entire career and still become the Greatest of all time.

Rugby League is not Like the NBA, UFC, NHL etc where there is one stand alone comp in the world, in RL there is 2 the SL and the NRL. If you are an all time great in one of those comps you are an all time great RL player.

Imagine being a young kid from bloody Dewbury or something and you dream of become the greatest rugby league player of all time, yet you can never be that unless you move to the other of the world according to some people, it’s silly.

Also this goes to show how important have a good international setup is. Rugby league is completely divided between Europe and Oceania, this no universal conversation and 99% of the fans are one or the other. A consistent international game would give the best players the correct reputation and help educate more people about the gap between the two leagues.

Posted

Smart business all round. 

A 4 year contract for a federation trained marquee player makes him affordable for Saints, keeps the fans happy but crucially provides a decent transfer fee if he decides to move early.

For a player yet to achieve his full potential ( his striking weakness being the ease with which the opposition can get under his skin ) time to establish himself as the one the NCL clubs MUST have ,with a current contract short enough to wait if he has to ( and collect a massive sign on bonus for himself ) and move  when he should be at the peak of his career.

  • Like 1
Posted
4 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

Jack Welsby could go to the NRL at some point or he might not. If he continues at the rate he is at he will go down as one of the greatest players in history, no matter of which leagues he’s played in.

No English player should ever be pressured to move on the other side to prove themselves. It is unfair, Jack Welsby could stay at St Helens his entire career and still become the Greatest of all time.

Rugby League is not Like the NBA, UFC, NHL etc where there is one stand alone comp in the world, in RL there is 2 the SL and the NRL. If you are an all time great in one of those comps you are an all time great RL player.

Imagine being a young kid from bloody Dewbury or something and you dream of become the greatest rugby league player of all time, yet you can never be that unless you move to the other of the world according to some people, it’s silly.

Also this goes to show how important have a good international setup is. Rugby league is completely divided between Europe and Oceania, this no universal conversation and 99% of the fans are one or the other. A consistent international game would give the best players the correct reputation and help educate more people about the gap between the two leagues.

Respectfully disagree with everything other than your last point which is good. Your correct in saying that the rugby league world is split between Europe (a small pocket in the north of England and an even smaller pocket in the south of France) and Oceania (Australian eastern seaboard, NZ North Island & PNG) with fans being one or another (NRL or SL).

However the vast majority of rugby league fans (people that support a team and/or watch or attend games each week) are based in the Oceana region. If I was guessing, I would say it would be roughly a 80%/20% split between Oceania/Europe (I’m excluding PNG in all this). 

So if Jack Welsby stays in SL his entire career then the vast majority of the planets rugby league fans would have barley any clue who he is let alone know how good he is/was. Which is why I and lot of posters on this forum believe you do have to prove yourself in the NRL especially if you are expecting people to believe he is a top 5 player in the world.

Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Respectfully disagree with everything other than your last point which is good. Your correct in saying that the rugby league world is split between Europe (a small pocket in the north of England and an even smaller pocket in the south of France) and Oceania (Australian eastern seaboard, NZ North Island & PNG) with fans being one or another (NRL or SL).

However the vast majority of rugby league fans (people that support a team and/or watch or attend games each week) are based in the Oceana region. If I was guessing, I would say it would be roughly a 80%/20% split between Oceania/Europe (I’m excluding PNG in all this). 

So if Jack Welsby stays in SL his entire career then the vast majority of the planets rugby league fans would have barley any clue who he is let alone know how good he is/was. Which is why I and lot of posters on this forum believe you do have to prove yourself in the NRL especially if you are expecting people to believe he is a top 5 player in the world.

We have Differing opinions about the influence of Reputation on someone’s quality.

I personally Believe someone’s Reputation has absolutely nothing to do with how good a player is, especially in a sport in which the fans are so segregated. But for you it seems you need a player playing bright lights for them to reach the top.

Also I’ll mention Jack Welsby is definitely house hold name down here in aus after the World Cup and especially the WCC. I think NRL fans are very aware that Welsby is special, most don’t know to how much extent he is special but he’s still pretty popular.  Some NRL clubs have reportedly offered almost 1 Mil a year for Welsby, which would be make him around 7-8 highest paid player in the comp, if some NRL clubs rank him that highly I think it’s fair to say most people in Oceania have “a clue who he is”. 

Edited by NRLandSL
Posted
3 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

You do not have to play in the best competition in the world to be the best player in the world. Welsby is a top 5 player in the world, he does not have to “prove himself” to any NRL fanatic. Reputation is a completely different thing to quality, SL players will never be as reputable as the Aussies but that does not mean they can’t be as good.

I thought when Jack Welsby won the WCC all this nonsense about needing to prove yourself in the NRL would be a thing of the past but I guess not.

This is the same argument Ronaldo fans to criticise Messi for not playing in the Prem.

Two things you say

"Reputation is a completely different thing to quality, SL players will never be as reputable as the Aussies but that does not mean they can’t be as good"

So how other than proving yourself to be the best in the best competition do you aquire that reputation? Of course it does not mean they can't be that good but the proof of the pudding is doing it.

Secondly, 

"This is the same argument Ronaldo fans to criticise Messi for not playing in the Prem"

What is this fatuation than many posters have in quoting the round ball game as though it substantially improves their argument, it means nothing to me when footballers are mentioned.

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