England v Spain , Will You Be Watching?

[EagleEyePie]

I don't think Kane deserves the criticism that he's getting. He had a poor tournament but he's a quality player. Best player in the Bundesliga this year and banging goals in for fun as he always does. He's a talented player who plays a certain way. It's no secret that he likes to drop deep. He's essentially a false 9. Sometimes you have to pick the best team rather than the best players and play a certain style or team selection that gets the best out of certain individuals, sometimes at the expense of others. If you play Kane you know he'll drop deep so you pick players around him who will push ahead. If you aren't going to play that way then don't pick Kane.

I'd argue we had the most balanced striking options of any nation in the competition - a false 9 (Kane), a target man (Toney) and a player who likes to get in behind (Watkins) but I don't think Southgate necessarily used them to their full effect. He seemed to take a 'Kane is 1st choice and first choice always starts' approach, when I think you could argue he should have viewed it as having 3 quality strikers who could be chosen to do a specific job based on the opposition. Given how different the options were it was frustrating that we never really went for 2 up top except in injury time (then extra time) against Slovakia and one minute before full time tonight. At least then our more direct style of play would have a focal point.

[Gerrumonside ref]

There’s always a scapegoat when England are eliminated from a tournament it seems, even when reaching a final.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Gerrumonside ref

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

There’s always a scapegoat when England are eliminated from a tournament it seems, even when reaching a final.

I don't think there is a scapegoat as such. Sure I think we could have done stuff better but as a team Spain were technically far superior.

[Gerrumonside ref]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't think there is a scapegoat as such. Sure I think we could have done stuff better but as a team Spain were technically far superior.

Yes, I’m talking more about the tabloid press than anything.

[Maximus Decimus]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I don't think there is a scapegoat as such. Sure I think we could have done stuff better but as a team Spain were technically far superior.

I don't think it's scapegoating to be question why Kane was so bad. 

It wasn't just his lack of pace, but his touch was really bad too. There have been questions that he hasn't been fit and maybe they're true cos the reality is he has been totally ineffective this tournament.

We were always likely to be second best against Spain in most areas, but it didn't help having a striker who was for whatever reason a passenger.

Until we have someone willing to pick the best team and but the best players, we'll always have this issue.

[Maximus Decimus]

49 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think Southgate’s coaching team have probably reached the end of the road this time, but there is no natural English successor waiting in the wings to take over.

Statistically if not stylistically, he will go down as the second greatest England manager so far and his achievement is even amplified by the absolute mess he inherited.

I believe the squad was right this time, but the first XI were fitful and disappointing  on the whole despite reaching the final.

Graham Potter seems the obvious choice. 

Southgate's legacy will likely be one of success from a historical England perspective , but the question will always be was he just very lucky? After this tournament, it's hard to argue against that proposition.

[Futtocks]

A good effort, that made a better opposition side work really hard. Not a brilliant spectacle, but Football finals rarely are.

The difference being that their fans don't see an ordinary game as the end of the world.

[Gerrumonside ref]

20 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Graham Potter seems the obvious choice. 

Southgate's legacy will likely be one of success from a historical England perspective , but the question will always be was he just very lucky? After this tournament, it's hard to argue against that proposition.

Graham Potter after his failure at Chelsea?!

Shows what a lack of options we have to take things forward.

Not sure reaching two finals, a semi final and a quarter final can be written off as luck either whatever his failings.

[Futtocks]

There will be loud calls for a badge-kissing "pride an' passion" type to supplant Southgate.

That will, as usual, take us backwards, but temporarily sate the red-tops' jingoistic blood lust.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Futtocks

[EagleEyePie]

6 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Graham Potter after his failure at Chelsea?!

Shows what a lack of options we have to take things forward.

Not sure reaching two finals, a semi final and a quarter final can be written off as luck either whatever his failings.

I'm not suggesting he's the right option, but you could just have easily said why Southgate after his failure at Middlesbrough. In fact lots of people did.

Not being successful at a particular club doesn't necessarily make someone a bad manager. In defence of Potter, he was brought into Chelsea two months into the season after they'd just spent a load of money on players with no plan of how they'd actually fit into a team. It was hard enough for Tuchel (who almost certainly didn't deserve to be sacked) never mind a new manager. After Potter was sacked results got worse. Pochettino may have got them to 6th this season but Chelsea were in pretty much the same position in April 2024 as they were in April 2023. It was a bad career move, but it doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager.

I think one thing that sometimes gets overlooked when debating who will be the next national team manager is ability at club management doesn't necessarily mean they'll be a good manager at international level. Luis de la Fuente has a very average CV at club level but did well with national teams through age group levels. Lionel Scaloni had no experience of management at all but has been massively successful with Argentina.

If Southgate leaves, the FA need to select the right person for the job, not worry about what people might think of their decision. 

[HawkMan]

And the 23/24 football season finally ends, other sports can now get the oxygen of coverage until the next football season starts in.....er three weeks time.

August 4th Scottish Premier,  August 11th EFL and August 18th EPL. Those with Premier Sports the new season started on Saturday with the Scottish League Cup. I watched Queen of the South vs Aberdeen. Next year it's Women's Euros as the Lionesses defend the title and FIFA's mad Men's club world cup. Its all year round, it's not sustainable,  what the answer is I've no idea.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

2 hours ago, HawkMan said:

And the 23/24 football season finally ends, other sports can now get the oxygen of coverage until the next football season starts in.....er three weeks time.

August 4th Scottish Premier,  August 11th EFL and August 18th EPL. Those with Premier Sports the new season started on Saturday with the Scottish League Cup. I watched Queen of the South vs Aberdeen. Next year it's Women's Euros as the Lionesses defend the title and FIFA's mad Men's club world cup. Its all year round, it's not sustainable,  what the answer is I've no idea.

Just 2 weeks until the start of the new NCEL season! Cmon Beverley!! Beavers!! Beavers!!

[Gerrumonside ref]

3 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I'm not suggesting he's the right option, but you could just have easily said why Southgate after his failure at Middlesbrough. In fact lots of people did.

Not being successful at a particular club doesn't necessarily make someone a bad manager. In defence of Potter, he was brought into Chelsea two months into the season after they'd just spent a load of money on players with no plan of how they'd actually fit into a team. It was hard enough for Tuchel (who almost certainly didn't deserve to be sacked) never mind a new manager. After Potter was sacked results got worse. Pochettino may have got them to 6th this season but Chelsea were in pretty much the same position in April 2024 as they were in April 2023. It was a bad career move, but it doesn't necessarily make him a bad manager.

I think one thing that sometimes gets overlooked when debating who will be the next national team manager is ability at club management doesn't necessarily mean they'll be a good manager at international level. Luis de la Fuente has a very average CV at club level but did well with national teams through age group levels. Lionel Scaloni had no experience of management at all but has been massively successful with Argentina.

If Southgate leaves, the FA need to select the right person for the job, not worry about what people might think of their decision. 

Southgate’s experience with a group of players coming through at England u21 level got him the England job rather than his Middlesbrough record.

All we know from Potter’s record is he struggled to manage the top players at Chelsea and whatever he achieved at Brighton was at least emulated by his successor.

If Potter gets the England job based on his record then I would be very surprised.

[Maximus Decimus]

12 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Graham Potter after his failure at Chelsea?!

Shows what a lack of options we have to take things forward.

Not sure reaching two finals, a semi final and a quarter final can be written off as luck either whatever his failings.

I don't know much about Potter tbh, but he's the favourite and did have some success as a PL manager before Chelsea.

I'm a fan of Southgate, and defended him on here before the tournament. His record is unprecedented in our lifetimes and IMO people were all too quick to forget what it was like in 2016. The idea that all we needed was a good manager and we'd be world beaters just didn't stand up to any scrutiny.

I was also quite annoyed to read today that he'll likely step down because he's 'failed at 4 tournaments.' It is a very narrow yard stick to class two second places as failure in the England context. In some ways, I think 1966 did us no favours because it created the illusion that we're a team that should be in the conversation when usually we're not.

However, you cannot deny that he's been very lucky in this tournament and in 2018. In 2021 we grew into the tournament and in 2022 we were probably the best we were under Southgate. This tournament was largely poor with flashes of something good.

One of the things that feels so bad today, is the reality that we might be much better and not get the luck we had this time. The chances of making a final are so slim and it just feels like we might have missed an opportunity we won't necessarily get again.

[Gerrumonside ref]

6 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I don't know much about Potter tbh, but he's the favourite and did have some success as a PL manager before Chelsea.

I'm a fan of Southgate, and defended him on here before the tournament. His record is unprecedented in our lifetimes and IMO people were all too quick to forget what it was like in 2016. The idea that all we needed was a good manager and we'd be world beaters just didn't stand up to any scrutiny.

I was also quite annoyed to read today that he'll likely step down because he's 'failed at 4 tournaments.' It is a very narrow yard stick to class two second places as failure in the England context. In some ways, I think 1966 did us no favours because it created the illusion that we're a team that should be in the conversation when usually we're not.

However, you cannot deny that he's been very lucky in this tournament and in 2018. In 2021 we grew into the tournament and in 2022 we were probably the best we were under Southgate. This tournament was largely poor with flashes of something good.

One of the things that feels so bad today, is the reality that we might be much better and not get the luck we had this time. The chances of making a final are so slim and it just feels like we might have missed an opportunity we won't necessarily get again.

In 2018 my expectations were wildly exceeded given the squad available and Southgate himself.

The Italy Euros final was an opportunity missed but not a failure.

I agree with you about the criticism and think that Southgate’s legacy is that he’s raised the bar significantly for what is expected from England at tournaments even if he didn’t do it in great style.

Edited July 15, 2024 by Gerrumonside ref

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

I was really pleased with the first half performance, we didn't have much possession but we defended really well, at the start of the 2nd half Spain went up another level, we did well to equalize but we could have easily lost 4-1, then again goals change matches, if we'd had scored from that double goal line clearance at the death, you never know.

There's no doubt that Southgate has closed the gap between England and the top of the international game but last night Spain took it up another couple of notches.

[ivans82]

Kane didn`t look fit all tournament and the selection of Mainoo didn`t come off  . We need to be a bit more bold  , Were Southgates substitutions inspired , or were these players the ones who should have started .

[gingerjon]

7 hours ago, HawkMan said:

And the 23/24 football season finally ends, other sports can now get the oxygen of coverage until the next football season starts in.....er three weeks time.

August 4th Scottish Premier,  August 11th EFL and August 18th EPL. Those with Premier Sports the new season started on Saturday with the Scottish League Cup. I watched Queen of the South vs Aberdeen. Next year it's Women's Euros as the Lionesses defend the title and FIFA's mad Men's club world cup. It’s all year round, it's not sustainable,  what the answer is I've no idea.

Edit - comment deleted as reread post and my reply was saying something already in it 

Edited July 15, 2024 by gingerjon

[Maximus Decimus]

3 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

In 2018 my expectations were wildly exceeded given the squad available and Southgate himself.

The Italy Euros final was an opportunity missed but not a failure.

I agree with you about the criticism and think that Southgate’s legacy is that he’s raised the bar significantly for what is expected from England at tournaments even if he didn’t do it in great style.

I've been saying for a long time that he's done some things behind the scenes that cannot be underestimated. Take the penalties thing for instance, we've gone a long way to removing that demon.

I think when the dust fully settles, the Italy one in 2021 will be seen as the truly missed opportunity. We went a goal up and it just threw us, and even then just lost on pens.

Last night was a case of coming up against a team better than us. We had a chance, but it would have been fortunate.

There have been other changes from the last 10 years or so that are starting to bear fruition. It is why for instance we have so many good players to choose from all of a sudden.

We're likely going to be in the discussion for some time, it just feels like you need a mixture of things including the stars to align to even make a final. Like I said, I think we were best in 2022 but came across France in a game that could've gone either way. 

[Hopie]

If Southgate wants to continue he should be allowed to, nobody even comes close to his record of results, but I would expect the hounding of the press and the booing of the fans can build up over the years and a happy retirement/easy money as a pundit may look appealing. Should be up to him and he should be allowed time if he wants it.

Southgate set England up as difficult to beat, and they went through the tournament without a defeat until the final, previously England have blasted out of the gates in games and scored early, then tried to hang on and got beat or knocked out on penalties because they didn't have the right mentality. There has been a lot of criticism about style of play and lack of intent, but it is football and you don;t have to be the "best" team to win.  Seems like the players are willing to play for him, he still has the passion and if he carries on hopefully he will learn from some of the smaller mistakes like not dropping his captain when he was unfit/under performing.