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Bad times in West Cumbria


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#41 The Parksider

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 10:54 PM

QUOTE (yanto @ Jul 10 2010, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The amateur scene (where most SL clubs get their talent from excluding the over the hill Aussie imports) is as strong as any in England (see a previous thread about how the young age groups are supplying championship winning sides) but as stated, the demise of both Town and Haven does not attract these youngsters into the local pro game.All they dream about is a SL contract and at the moment quite a few 18 & 19 year old's are at SL clubs.
When I was 17 all I wanted to do was pull on a Town shirt ..now they want a Wigan or Bradford shirt.
CARLA teams can mix it with the best its a crying shame that all the talent developed by these small village clubs are moving out of the county.


I reply to you with the utmost respect re: your playing experience and ability.

Can I ask you about the Cumbria elite youngsters??

Like all team sports there are great "young kids" but only a few make it.

If Cumbria produced great kids, the majority will still come back from SL clubs. If they come back to a skint and depressed Town and Haven will they be interested for a few quid boot money??

If they come back to a Cumbria RL side that is vibrant will that give them a second stab at SL if they do well, or give them the very next best to SL?? I think it would, why not you??

At our local soccer club they love the pro-sides taking the best kids because 99% come back as better players.




#42 dkw

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:41 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jul 11 2010, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I reply to you with the utmost respect re: your playing experience and ability.

Can I ask you about the Cumbria elite youngsters??

Like all team sports there are great "young kids" but only a few make it.

If Cumbria produced great kids, the majority will still come back from SL clubs. If they come back to a skint and depressed Town and Haven will they be interested for a few quid boot money??

If they come back to a Cumbria RL side that is vibrant will that give them a second stab at SL if they do well, or give them the very next best to SL?? I think it would, why not you??

At our local soccer club they love the pro-sides taking the best kids because 99% come back as better players.

The West Cumbria under 18`s coached by Craig "Butch" Barker won Gillette National Youth League Grand Final this season with some outstanding prospects in the team. How may will make it is unknown, how may will stay in cumbria if they are good enough is even less certain. Keith, didnt Yanto send that dutch lad over last season only but we couldnt get a permit for him? I heard he was a real un.

#43 Blind side johnny

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:47 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 10 2010, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agree with the exception of the mention of Doncaster who certainly can't support a team at that level. Better Batley or Dewsbury (or a combined club of the two if mergers take off), OldhamRochdale would be a possible joint side, but as it stands Rochdale would have a better bid due to Oldham's small ground capacity



I'm guessing that you don't follow any of these clubs.

I continue to be amazed how many fans can come up with solutions for other clubs but would recoil in horror if anything similar were suggested for their own. Cas/Wakey seems obvious for example, or what about Leeds/Bradford and surely Warrington/Widnes makes a load of sense.

Existing fans would leave a merged club in droves and new fans would only be attracted if the new club became successful - something of a long haul. Mergers may become necessities but would, in reality, simply be the closure of one club. History has many examples to study from Sydney clubs (many Warringah fans out there?) to Hull and Huddersfield; none of them provide object lessons in the success of such schemes.


Believe what you see, don't see what you believe.


John Ray (1627 - 1705)

#44 bowes

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 07:27 PM

QUOTE (Blind side johnny @ Jul 13 2010, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm guessing that you don't follow any of these clubs.

I continue to be amazed how many fans can come up with solutions for other clubs but would recoil in horror if anything similar were suggested for their own. Cas/Wakey seems obvious for example, or what about Leeds/Bradford and surely Warrington/Widnes makes a load of sense.

Existing fans would leave a merged club in droves and new fans would only be attracted if the new club became successful - something of a long haul. Mergers may become necessities but would, in reality, simply be the closure of one club. History has many examples to study from Sydney clubs (many Warringah fans out there?) to Hull and Huddersfield; none of them provide object lessons in the success of such schemes.

As things stand yes, was more saying if there's that much desperation to stay in the Championship would be likely. As it stands Batley and Dewsbury have more more claim to be in the Championship on their own right than either of the West Cumbrian clubs and certainly far more than Doncaster. I only meant they'd be logical if mergers ever take off, not now

Edited by bowes, 13 July 2010 - 07:28 PM.


#45 The Parksider

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 07:48 AM

QUOTE (Blind side johnny @ Jul 13 2010, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm guessing that you don't follow any of these clubs.

I continue to be amazed how many fans can come up with solutions for other clubs but would recoil in horror if anything similar were suggested for their own. Cas/Wakey seems obvious for example, or what about Leeds/Bradford and surely Warrington/Widnes makes a load of sense.

Existing fans would leave a merged club in droves and new fans would only be attracted if the new club became successful - something of a long haul.


It's a good point Johnny, up to a point, but in Yorks/Lancs there's often no need for mergers when the "successful" clubs can draw the fans and the best players from the nearby unsuccessful clubs. In Cumbria it may be the fans will have nowhere to go but stay at home and the best players will be off to Yorkshire and Lancashire. Whilst rivalries may cause fans to reject each other in a merger, any cumbria merger only become a county side and there's no record of the fans in cumbria recoiling in horror at supporting the county side is there??

#46 yanto

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:30 AM

Just been reading back through all of this.
The thread is "Bad times in West Cumbria".
This seems to have been once again turned into a merger thread.
re name the thread "Bad times in West Cumbria at pro level" as the amateurs and juniors are doing very very well wink.gif

#47 Keith T

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:24 AM

In last weeks League Weekly there was anarticle claiming that the Chairmen of both clubs had held preliminary talks regarding a SL team for Cumbria for 2015. Town's chairman went to great lengths to publicly state that this was "rubbish" and in my opinion once again "kow towing" to the diehards, all 100 of them at Town. How I would have loved to have read that it was true and that both clubs realised it was the only way forward if we are ever to see SL in the west of Cumbria again.

Every passing year it is getting harder and harder for these clubs to make ends meet as individual clubs and both are fighting each other for the same sources of sponsorship and other sources of income, for what? Town mid-table in Championship 1 with crowds around 400 - 500 and Haven looking likely to be relegated from the Championship with crowds of around 800 - 900. Woweeeee, we'll have a couple of local derby matches next season. That'll show which team is top dog in the area or our two team league table.

My message to both chairmen would be to get together and talk seriously about it and let those who cry "over my dead body" walk away, just as thousands have done for the opposite reason over the past 10 - 15 years.

Edited by Keith T, 14 July 2010 - 11:25 AM.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#48 The Parksider

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (Keith T @ Jul 14 2010, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In last weeks League Weekly there was anarticle claiming that the Chairmen of both clubs had held preliminary talks regarding a SL team for Cumbria for 2015. Town's chairman went to great lengths to publicly state that this was "rubbish" and in my opinion once again "kow towing" to the diehards, all 100 of them at Town. How I would have loved to have read that it was true and that both clubs realised it was the only way forward if we are ever to see SL in the west of Cumbria again.

Every passing year it is getting harder and harder for these clubs to make ends meet as individual clubs and both are fighting each other for the same sources of sponsorship and other sources of income, for what? Town mid-table in Championship 1 with crowds around 400 - 500 and Haven looking likely to be relegated from the Championship with crowds of around 800 - 900. Woweeeee, we'll have a couple of local derby matches next season. That'll show which team is top dog in the area or our two team league table.

My message to both chairmen would be to get together and talk seriously about it and let those who cry "over my dead body" walk away, just as thousands have done for the opposite reason over the past 10 - 15 years.


I'm afraid hard times at pro-plevel and merger go hand in hand.

Big city professional RL on five figure crowds has not fully left the NL clubs behind and who knows which way our game will go. If SL heads for the stars Cumbria have no chance, but if there's any sort of a downward trend of the SL game, or retrenchment, the chance for a Cumbria side to make it could present itself.

I also wonder about club chairmen who can't afford tuppence, are really motivated towards SL themselves, because if there was a push towards SL these lads would have to up their input or move over surely??? Are clun chairmen at NL clubs turkeys who themselves won't vote for an SL christmas?


#49 shaun mc

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:28 PM

QUOTE (yanto @ Jul 14 2010, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just been reading back through all of this.
The thread is "Bad times in West Cumbria".
This seems to have been once again turned into a merger thread.
re name the thread "Bad times in West Cumbria at pro level" as the amateurs and juniors are doing very very well wink.gif


The thread should be "Bad times in West Cumbria at pro and amateur level'.
Some amateur clubs aren't doing so well - Elbra failed to complete some games last year and narrowly avoided relegation. Its a very quick downward spiral for them - a top club until very recently


#50 Keith T

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:35 PM

QUOTE (shaun mc @ Jul 14 2010, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The thread should be "Bad times in West Cumbria at pro and amateur level'.
Some amateur clubs aren't doing so well - Elbra failed to complete some games last year and narrowly avoided relegation. Its a very quick downward spiral for them - a top club until very recently


Elbra have now got Ryan MacDonald as their coach, so things will start looking up for them.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#51 yanto

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE (shaun mc @ Jul 14 2010, 11:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The thread should be "Bad times in West Cumbria at pro and amateur level'.
Some amateur clubs aren't doing so well - Elbra failed to complete some games last year and narrowly avoided relegation. Its a very quick downward spiral for them - a top club until very recently


Shaun,
How many small towns like Maryport can sustain THREE top amateur clubs (and real clubs not just teams) plus a union club.
I would reckon the Port has the most clubs compared to population anywhere in the UK.
11,275 residents in 2001 census.



#52 bowes

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 06:55 AM

QUOTE (yanto @ Jul 17 2010, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shaun,
How many small towns like Maryport can sustain THREE top amateur clubs (and real clubs not just teams) plus a union club.
I would reckon the Port has the most clubs compared to population anywhere in the UK.
11,275 residents in 2001 census.

Do Workington have many clubs? Think there's just 1 (Seaton?) in the area but yes Maryport is the real RL playing area up there as well as Whitehaven

#53 dkw

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 09:13 AM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 17 2010, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do Workington have many clubs? Think there's just 1 (Seaton?) in the area but yes Maryport is the real RL playing area up there as well as Whitehaven

Salterbeck have teams through the age groups too.

#54 shaun mc

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 02:48 PM

Its not a million years ago that Maryport supported many more teams of both rugby codes than it does now.

I started off at Maryport under 11's, then to football, then to Glasson Rangers, back to football, then to Netherhall RU starting off in the 4th team.

Now a good proportion of the juniors are merged teams and Netherall can barely raise a first team without some forty-somethings playing.

The playing numbers overall are well down, but yes there are still 3 clubs in Glasson, Maryport and Elbra

#55 yanto

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 03:30 PM

QUOTE (bowes @ Jul 17 2010, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do Workington have many clubs? Think there's just 1 (Seaton?) in the area but yes Maryport is the real RL playing area up there as well as Whitehaven


Seaton is a village in its own right.
As dkw states only Salterbeck are based in the town and over the last 20 odd years they had only two more I can think off,Westfiled and Derwent Park Rangers (youth age groups.)

Whitehaven have had more success but still only have two clubs actually in the town Hensingham and Kells.

Smith Brothers,Mirehouse,Corckickle have all come and gone as have village teams such as Dearham,St Bees,Brigham(Twinames),Broughton Moor,Dalston (and a host of other Carlisle based clubs who went into the CARLA divisions) Aspatria and Penrith of the top of my head.

Still the traditional well established clubs like Kells,Wath Brow,Egremont,Broughton,Maryport.Glasson and Hensingham have (and still are) producing top class amateur players that if they had a higher level of local proffesional teams to look to would not be moving out of the county.

I would say the last real succesful "local pro" side was the town team of the late seventies wink.gif who held their own in the top flight for four or five years and boasted 95% local players.
In the 79 Lancashire cup final (fourth in four years) against Widnes (Cup kings at the time) only Harry Beverley and Iain McCourcadale did not come from the local amatuer scene.
1.Charlo (Kells) 2.Corkey (Oldham RU??) 3.Kevin Maughan (Red Rose) 4.Tomo (Red Rose) 5 Becky (Clifton) 6.Chuddy (W.Brow) 7.Boxer (Kells) 8.Bev (Dewsbury) 9.Banksy (Egremont) 10.Gary Wallbanks (Red Rose) 11.Ray Lewis(Hensingham??) 12.Ian Hartley (Egremont) 13.Dobie (Red Rose) 14 Sol (Kells??) 15 Varty (Red Rose)

Maughan,Tomo,Chuddy,Becky,Wallbanks,Lewy,Sol and Hartley would all be under 22 at the time.

Its hard to see that type of local representation taking either Town or Haven to higher levels in the future.

#56 dkw

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 06:43 PM

Your being a bit harsh on some of the teams you played in Yanto, they werent too bad though obviously not as successful as the side you named. I played for Rangers for a few years, shame they went under they were good times, except when we were getting flogged up and down the steps/ramp onto cloffocks car park. Man that hurt.

#57 Keith T

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 07:17 PM

QUOTE (dkw @ Jul 17 2010, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your being a bit harsh on some of the teams you played in Yanto, they werent too bad though obviously not as successful as the side you named. I played for Rangers for a few years, shame they went under they were good times, except when we were getting flogged up and down the steps/ramp onto cloffocks car park. Man that hurt.

And I remember prior to DP Rangers, playing for Workington Town B and we trained on the car park behind the grandstand with just one light on the wall. Oh, happy days.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#58 yanto

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 07:47 PM

QUOTE (dkw @ Jul 17 2010, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your being a bit harsh on some of the teams you played in Yanto, they werent too bad though obviously not as successful as the side you named.

Forgot Billy Pat (Cockermouth) and Derek Mcmillan (Kells) who was injured.

Not really being harsh, I was just pointing out what a load of young local kids could achieve.The 5-2 win at Barrow in the semi final was fantastic biggrin.gif

The team of the 76,77 and 78 Lancashire cup finals was being broken up.
Peter and Les Gorley,Eddie Bowman,Bobby Blackwood,Rizzo,Taff Wilkins,Ian Wright had all moved on or retired and for a side like the one mentioned, full of young guys plucked out of the local amateurs, to take on the mighty Widnes and just lose 11-0 (Fluke Dave Moran try of a Mick Adams bomb) was a credit to the team and CARLA.
10-0 at half time and the only score in the second half was a drop goal from Keith Elwell (I think).

Widnes won the Lancs cup,Wembley,Floodlit and premiership that season.
Town began their yo yo years sad.gif

Edited by yanto, 17 July 2010 - 07:50 PM.


#59 yanto

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE (Keith T @ Jul 17 2010, 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And I remember prior to DP Rangers, playing for Workington Town B and we trained on the car park behind the grandstand with just one light on the wall. Oh, happy days.

Would that be a gas lamp Keith wink.gif

#60 dkw

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Posted 17 July 2010 - 07:56 PM

QUOTE (yanto @ Jul 17 2010, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Town began their yo yo years sad.gif

Which was pretty much when I started to watch them, my uncles to blame. Started going about 1978/79, saw some terrible seasons but none worse than the stupid one with only 6 (I think) in a league when we ended up playing Carlisle about 6 times. Was ridiculous and crowds were appalling.