Martyn Sadler - Talking Rugby League

[Larry the Leit]

You live in the 21st century do you? So where in RL land are the village pit teams? Can you name them please because I dont know of any? Being the 'realist' you claim you are please explain to me which of the current RL big city teams are potentially likely to be pulling in crowds of 25k any time soon.

It's a good job P & R existed back in the eighties or your mighty Wigan may not have been where they are now because I remember full well the evening when a famous pit village club put the final nail in the mighty Wigan's coffin and relegated them. Yes those days are in the past but only because of greed and self interest of the clubs which found themselves in the right place at the right time

Who are you to say that Featherstone Rovers, Halifax etc can't return to the big time? As knowledgeable as you profess to be you don't actually know anything about their respective operations and prospective financial backing. None of us do, but wouldn't it be nice to find out? These clubs aren't run by fools you know, let's see by giving them their opportunity.

 

Terry what you're talking about here is sport adhering to sporting principles of chance and opportunity both on and off the field.  Padge seems to subscribe to it being all about the business plans of the selected few, not the business plans of the wider community of clubs.  His club, despite being the second best supported sporting team in his former mining town, is alright Jack.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

You live in the 21st century do you? So where in RL land are the village pit teams? Can you name them please because I dont know of any? Being the 'realist' you claim you are please explain to me which of the current RL big city teams are potentially likely to be pulling in crowds of 25k any time soon.

It's a good job P & R existed back in the eighties or your mighty Wigan may not have been where they are now because I remember full well the evening when a famous pit village club put the final nail in the mighty Wigan's coffin and relegated them. Yes those days are in the past but only because of greed and self interest of the clubs which found themselves in the right place at the right time

Who are you to say that Featherstone Rovers, Halifax etc can't return to the big time? As knowledgeable as you profess to be you don't actually know anything about their respective operations and prospective financial backing. None of us do, but wouldn't it be nice to find out? These clubs aren't run by fools you know, let's see by giving them their opportunity.

 

 

You live in the 21st century do you? So where in RL land are the village pit teams? Can you name them please because I dont know of any? Being the 'realist' you claim you are please explain to me which of the current RL big city teams are potentially likely to be pulling in crowds of 25k any time soon.

It's a good job P & R existed back in the eighties or your mighty Wigan may not have been where they are now because I remember full well the evening when a famous pit village club put the final nail in the mighty Wigan's coffin and relegated them. Yes those days are in the past but only because of greed and self interest of the clubs which found themselves in the right place at the right time

Who are you to say that Featherstone Rovers, Halifax etc can't return to the big time? As knowledgeable as you profess to be you don't actually know anything about their respective operations and prospective financial backing. None of us do, but wouldn't it be nice to find out? These clubs aren't run by fools you know, let's see by giving them their opportunity.

if there had been no promotion and relegation then wigan wouldn't have relegated in the first place

you say there are no pit village teams and then talk about a 'famous pit village team': make your mind up.

 

Wigan were relegated once: they had the resources to ensure it didn't happen again.

 

one of the main problems with promotion and relegation in rugby league was the constant promotion and relegation of the same sorry cadre of clubs and the effect it had on them

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Terry what you're talking about here is sport adhering to sporting principles of chance and opportunity both on and off the field.  Padge seems to subscribe to it being all about the business plans of the selected few, not the business plans of the wider community of clubs.  His club, despite being the second best supported sporting team in his former mining town, is alright Jack.

 

 

Terry what you're talking about here is sport adhering to sporting principles of chance and opportunity both on and off the field.  Padge seems to subscribe to it being all about the business plans of the selected few, not the business plans of the wider community of clubs.  His club, despite being the second best supported sporting team in his former mining town, is alright Jack.

I think you are wrong.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

I'd have been happy to comment on the London situation, but given the way this thread (like so many) has degenerated it would be pointless.

[Larry the Leit]

I think you are wrong.

 

Thanks for that Frank.  Would you care to elaborate a little as I'll need a little more convincing.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Thanks for that Frank.  Would you care to elaborate a little as I'll need a little more convincing.

 

 

Thanks for that Frank.  Would you care to elaborate a little as I'll need a little more convincing.

Dave doesn't need me to speak for him, and I'm sure he'll respond himself.

 

but I'd say from reading his stuff over the years that he doesn't think in such cold self interested terms.

Downsy sends hugs by the way.: well I'm sure he would but I havent seen him for a bit. It must be an interesting time for him right now.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'd have been happy to comment on the London situation, but given the way this thread (like so many) has degenerated it would be pointless.

 

 

I'd have been happy to comment on the London situation, but given the way this thread (like so many) has degenerated it would be pointless.

as a believer in the Broncos I'd love to know what your thoughts are.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

as a believer in the Broncos I'd love to know what your thoughts are.

I'm not sure that you would! In spite of all the talk about the past when the club had marvellous support, if you look at the reality of the situation whenever the club's moved there's an intial splurge of enthusiasm followed by gates dropping back to the 2.5 - 3k that they were before. The only time we've been owned by a successful and experienced businessman  was under Richard Branson, who ended up seeing the only way forward being letting Leigh have our SL place and providing the intial funding for a Championship (as the comp is now) club in the capital. This chimed in with what I've always thought - that there isn't the market for a top level RL club in London. Something might have been done in the eighties but the structure of the game at the time just wasn't there. No, for me the only way forward now is in the Championship (the Hive would be a good venue) which, as the Crusaders have shown, can be quite a nice place to be. This is a bit of a simplification of what I want to say, but i haven't the time at the moment so please excuse the rather broad brush nature of this.

[petesmithfan]

No you miss the point, some clubs have a maximum size to which they can grow, they are penned in by geography and demographics.

 

No matter how successful some clubs are there is a limit to what they can do. Unless of course you change the demographic of the area they are working in.

 

In the 21st century (the one us realists live in) you are not going to get village pit teams pulling in crowds of 25,000, some fantasists may believe that any current club with a bit of sky cash and a few wins can be all conquering and take on the world, I've got a bit of breaking news for you, they can't and they won't.

You talk business, but you lack one thing and that is real vision.  There are many ways for smaller clubs with vision to gain income other than "attendance" at the match.  The world is getting smaller and smaller.  Take Featherstone for example.  Your argument is that we are help back buy our size. I think our size is a massive selling point! its all about how you market yourselves and sell the dream.................  And we are have one of the greatest histories in the game if not British sport, our David V Goliath Storey is one of Hollywood Blockbusters.  The thing is when a perceived small team do well it gives their fans a greater buzz than some will ever taste........... And the thing is in this modern world you talk of this is now more accessible to people, people have better transport options now and will travel that little bit further to be part of something unique.  Its called thinking out of the box, all this talking about what went on in the 70s crowed wise is pointless.  We need to embrace the times and Tv funding to build a firm base from which we can grow.  And I still say our biggest problem is Players Wages.

[petesmithfan]

Here is an example of what I am saying.  Say the clubs spent on average 150k Less on players each a year and instead bought 8000 shirts or what how ever many you could get and got the players to give them out to every school child in the area along with a ticket to a match and invitation to the official shirt launch where they would be photographed with the players, interviewed by media etc etc.  I think this would be much more healthy for the long term future of the game. Simples

[petesmithfan]

please tell me you have not read every post I've ever made, which is what you would have to do to support that statement, which is completely erroneous at best.

True though Although I could be wrong.........................................see it its easy to say when you get into the swing.  I am sure if you ever discover the power of humility you will get PLENTY of practice. 

[thirteenthman]

I'm not sure that you would! In spite of all the talk about the past when the club had marvellous support, if you look at the reality of the situation whenever the club's moved there's an intial splurge of enthusiasm followed by gates dropping back to the 2.5 - 3k that they were before. The only time we've been owned by a successful and experienced businessman  was under Richard Branson, who ended up seeing the only way forward being letting Leigh have our SL place and providing the intial funding for a Championship (as the comp is now) club in the capital. This chimed in with what I've always thought - that there isn't the market for a top level RL club in London. Something might have been done in the eighties but the structure of the game at the time just wasn't there. No, for me the only way forward now is in the Championship (the Hive would be a good venue) which, as the Crusaders have shown, can be quite a nice place to be. This is a bit of a simplification of what I want to say, but i haven't the time at the moment so please excuse the rather broad brush nature of this.

 

Interesting. Not sure I'd agree that there isn't a market for top level RL in London. I just don't feel it's been properly tested for any great length of time. Proper management and lots of money are needed.

 

What I don't think there is, is enough money in the game to fully support a London game to the degree that would be needed to really push the sport in the capital. I also doubt there is anyone foolish enough to want to pump really serious amounts of money in - much more than David Hughes does now - and to take over running the Broncos in SL.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

True though Although I could be wrong.........................................see it its easy to say when you get into the swing. I am sure if you ever discover the power of humility you will get PLENTY of practice.

Yet again: for third time on this thread you know nothing about me.

Suggest you back up your views with actual information hth

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'm not sure that you would! In spite of all the talk about the past when the club had marvellous support, if you look at the reality of the situation whenever the club's moved there's an intial splurge of enthusiasm followed by gates dropping back to the 2.5 - 3k that they were before. The only time we've been owned by a successful and experienced businessman was under Richard Branson, who ended up seeing the only way forward being letting Leigh have our SL place and providing the intial funding for a Championship (as the comp is now) club in the capital. This chimed in with what I've always thought - that there isn't the market for a top level RL club in London. Something might have been done in the eighties but the structure of the game at the time just wasn't there. No, for me the only way forward now is in the Championship (the Hive would be a good venue) which, as the Crusaders have shown, can be quite a nice place to be. This is a bit of a simplification of what I want to say, but i haven't the time at the moment so please excuse the rather broad brush nature of this.

Thanks for that CC

You say the only way forward is the championship. What do you mean by forward? A sustainable championship club? Back to SL? I'm not sure what you mean.

I do feel as you suggest that a move from the stoop is a must. I don't know why - and maybe you can give some insight, but it doesn't seem to have worked out. I think an elite club in London is extremely important.

What input did Branson have with the club? I can't imagine it being much. I thought he put his name to it because his son was a fan.

I see what you mean about the structure of the game in he eighties: the club was lucky to come through it

[petesmithfan]

Yet again: for third time on this thread you know nothing about me.

Suggest you back up your views with actual information hth

Just taking you as I find you on here.  In the Words of the the great Roy Walker "say what you see" ................................... I shall leave you now to have the last word ;-)

Edited May 28, 2013 by petesmithfan

[Steve Slater]

if there had been no promotion and relegation then wigan wouldn't have relegated in the first place

you say there are no pit village teams and then talk about a 'famous pit village team': make your mind up.

 

Wigan were relegated once: they had the resources to ensure it didn't happen again.

 

one of the main problems with promotion and relegation in rugby league was the constant promotion and relegation of the same sorry cadre of clubs and the effect it had on them

If Wigan hadn't been relegated they wouldn't be where they are today - It was the best thing that ever happened to them. Likewise with Hull a couple of years earlier, both clubs were a poor reflection of their former selves at the time. In all sports relegation can be a great springboard on which clubs can come back stronger.

Before Super League relegation was no big deal, the best clubs always knew they'd get back within a year or two, but what changed all that was the one-up, one down scenario which made a quick return not as certain. All Super League clubs thought they had to avoid it like the plague, so they had to get rid of it!

[Padge]

You talk business, but you lack one thing and that is real vision.  There are many ways for smaller clubs with vision to gain income other than "attendance" at the match.  The world is getting smaller and smaller.  Take Featherstone for example.  Your argument is that we are help back buy our size. I think our size is a massive selling point! its all about how you market yourselves and sell the dream.................  And we are have one of the greatest histories in the game if not British sport, our David V Goliath Storey is one of Hollywood Blockbusters.  The thing is when a perceived small team do well it gives their fans a greater buzz than some will ever taste........... And the thing is in this modern world you talk of this is now more accessible to people, people have better transport options now and will travel that little bit further to be part of something unique.  Its called thinking out of the box, all this talking about what went on in the 70s crowed wise is pointless.  We need to embrace the times and Tv funding to build a firm base from which we can grow.  And I still say our biggest problem is Players Wages.

If it was that easy wouldn't everybody already be doing it.

[nadera78]

Thanks for that CC

You say the only way forward is the championship. What do you mean by forward? A sustainable championship club? Back to SL? I'm not sure what you mean.

I do feel as you suggest that a move from the stoop is a must. I don't know why - and maybe you can give some insight, but it doesn't seem to have worked out. I think an elite club in London is extremely important.

What input did Branson have with the club? I can't imagine it being much. I thought he put his name to it because his son was a fan.

I see what you mean about the structure of the game in he eighties: the club was lucky to come through it

Even Branson made mistakes with the club. He assumed that simply putting a good team on the pitch would bring people flocking to games - it didn't work because it failed to account for the almost non-existant profile RL has in London. As an example, in the season we made the Cup Final, our crowds fell after the final despite selling 10,000 tickets for Wembley. When the club contacted people to find out why they hadn't returned the reply from many was "we thought the season was over". "Build it and they will come" is no real plan at all.

 

For the club to progress (or even survive) it needs a stable and appropriate home, a big marketing push, a competitive team, astute back room staff, leadership who see the club as more than a hobby, players who don't regard the club as being lucky to have them, and to find a way to re-connect with a fan base that has become utterly disillusioned. In short, the club needs to be everything it currently isn't. 

 

Unlike the Chronicler, I do believe there is a place for a London club in an elite RL competition, but it needs a huge turnaround. And I'd say this to all those who can see and understand the role such a club would play in our game: if we miss the opportunity now there won't be another one for decades to come.

[nadera78]

You talk business, but you lack one thing and that is real vision.  There are many ways for smaller clubs with vision to gain income other than "attendance" at the match.  The world is getting smaller and smaller.  Take Featherstone for example.  Your argument is that we are help back buy our size. I think our size is a massive selling point! its all about how you market yourselves and sell the dream.................  And we are have one of the greatest histories in the game if not British sport, our David V Goliath Storey is one of Hollywood Blockbusters.  The thing is when a perceived small team do well it gives their fans a greater buzz than some will ever taste........... And the thing is in this modern world you talk of this is now more accessible to people, people have better transport options now and will travel that little bit further to be part of something unique.  Its called thinking out of the box, all this talking about what went on in the 70s crowed wise is pointless.  We need to embrace the times and Tv funding to build a firm base from which we can grow.  And I still say our biggest problem is Players Wages.

I don't know if you're being serious or not, so I'm assuming you are. I hate to break it to you but, outside of RL, you'd struggle to find anyone who has even heard of Featherstone never mind associate it with tgg. You'd find it even harder to find someone who knows the club's history.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

If Wigan hadn't been relegated they wouldn't be where they are today - It was the best thing that ever happened to them. Likewise with Hull a couple of years earlier, both clubs were a poor reflection of their former selves at the time. In all sports relegation can be a great springboard on which clubs can come back stronger.

Before Super League relegation was no big deal, the best clubs always knew they'd get back within a year or two, but what changed all that was the one-up, one down scenario which made a quick return not as certain. All Super League clubs thought they had to avoid it like the plague, so they had to get rid of it!

All sports? Only a small number of sports have such a system. Would you like a list of clubs that have vanished into obscurity and/or penury within that system in sports that do have a version of it? How come it was in your view at any rate the making of Wigan but the near and long lasting destruction of so many other clubs? Same goes for hull fc

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Even Branson made mistakes with the club. He assumed that simply putting a good team on the pitch would bring people flocking to games - it didn't work because it failed to account for the almost non-existant profile RL has in London. As an example, in the season we made the Cup Final, our crowds fell after the final despite selling 10,000 tickets for Wembley. When the club contacted people to find out why they hadn't returned the reply from many was "we thought the season was over". "Build it and they will come" is no real plan at all.

For the club to progress (or even survive) it needs a stable and appropriate home, a big marketing push, a competitive team, astute back room staff, leadership who see the club as more than a hobby, players who don't regard the club as being lucky to have them, and to find a way to re-connect with a fan base that has become utterly disillusioned. In short, the club needs to be everything it currently isn't.

Unlike the Chronicler, I do believe there is a place for a London club in an elite RL competition, but it needs a huge turnaround. And I'd say this to all those who can see and understand the role such a club would play in our game: if we miss the opportunity now there won't be another one for decades to come.

Interesting insights and quite a telling verdict

[Padge]

Thanks for that Frank.  Would you care to elaborate a little as I'll need a little more convincing.

 

You obviously haven't a clue about me our my thoughts on the game. Your 'I'm alright jack' remark is so way off beam as to be almost offensive.

[Larry the Leit]

You obviously haven't a clue about me our my thoughts on the game. Your 'I'm alright jack' remark is so way off beam as to be almost offensive.

 

Well I'm glad it's only almost.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Larry the Leit

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I've read enough of your thoughts on how the mythical "Calder area" clubs should merge, and when faced with counter argument you simply re-state them.

You never seem to state that Leigh/Wigan and Saints should merge.

I've had four PMs telling me how I'm wrong about you today, but at times all I see is a Wigan fan telling others how great Wigan are and how their clubs should be more like Wigan but can't ever be.

Calm down you silly ######

[petesmithfan]

If it was that easy wouldn't everybody already be doing it.

Cant recall anyone doing it for any sustained period, if you think that less marketing is better i disagree.  And I would say it is just part of the answer.  I think a lot of cllubs need to define who they are let that narrative run thru everything they do, give people something tangible to follow and believe in.  Its all about the customer.  The game is making inroads into marketing itself better but at a snails pace, the recent TV adverts and Shared themed match adverts. So their is a perceived value to marketing more, we just need to commit more income too it.  When the TV monies were first mentioned the mantra was that it was not going to be wasted on players that it would be used to secure the games future.