Martyn Sadler - Talking Rugby League

[nadera78]

1. They will so under p and r.

 

2. It's exactly the same situation. You have to leave Cumbria if you want to play SL and, if Boncos are relegated, you will have to leave London to do so.

Not a chance in hell of it happening down here with a club outside SL. You clearly have no idea what it's like, in RL terms, in London.

 

The Broncos get the most minuscule media coverage imaginable. Relegated to the Championship even that would disappear. The Broncos attract tiny levels of sponsorship (we went 18 months with nothing on our shirts) playing in SL. Relegated to the Championship even that would disappear. The Broncos have found it impossible to find investors, David Hughes is doing it because he can afford to and he likes having a team in SL. Relegated to the Championship he'd be gone (he's probably going soon anyway) and who would step forward? No-one, that's who.

 

It would be like going back to the mid-nineties, where London Crusaders struggled along in the second division and had no hope of ever progressing. Like the past 20 years had never happened. It's ludicrous the suggest that the club could grow or develop in any way outside of SL. Just plain ludicrous.

[nadera78]

If your a Hunslet lad and want to play SL for Leeds you will have to leave Hunslet to do so, and move to Leeds. "It's exactly the same situation".

Except it's not, and the point you choose to deliberately completely ignore is the London lads may as well switch back to Union as their first aim.

I don't know about switching "back to union" because lots of the lads coming through these days have never played union, or at least only in small amounts. But, given the choice at 16 years of age, how many would uproot themselves and move to Salford or Wakefield rather than stay at home? And if they'd rather stay at home, how many will want to play for a Championship club going nowhere or try their hand at union in a fully professional environment? 

[The Parksider]

I don't know about switching "back to union" because lots of the lads coming through these days have never played union, or at least only in small amounts. But, given the choice at 16 years of age, how many would uproot themselves and move to Salford or Wakefield rather than stay at home? And if they'd rather stay at home, how many will want to play for a Championship club going nowhere or try their hand at union in a fully professional environment?

Well the free gangway has allowed amateur clubs to spring up in the south east and extend their love of the game to running junior sides and of course as you say many kids have grown up as RL players as the years pass.

And if we abandon professional RL in London they years will pass and I would guess that will have a detrimental effect on the game and people playing it.

All I can offer is that if you look at where junior Rugby league thrives, and you look where the bulk of RL professionals come from it's mainly in Superleague areas. I don't think the junior game thrives outside such areas why would London be any different if pro RL was abandoned in the capital.

[Ackroman]

how many will want to play for a Championship club going nowhere

Lots of questions for you to answer for yourself.

How many Championship clubs are going nowhere now?

How many clubs will be going nowhere in the future if things do change?

What do players do now who play for going nowhere clubs and what will they do in the future?

Also are London are going anywhere now?

FWIW my opinion is that SL don't generate players, it's the system far beneath it that does. Also kids of 16 are way off SL level unless they are exceptional. In these circumstances they'll travel half way round the world to play. The rest take whatever paths exist if they are passionate about it because there will be scouts and coaches in Gloucester and Oxford (for eg)who are looking for talent to justify those efforts.

so at the end of the day does London want RL? It seems yes.

But does London want the Broncos?

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

Well the free gangway has allowed amateur clubs to spring up in the south east and extend their love of the game to running junior sides and of course as you say many kids have grown up as RL players as the years pass.

And if we abandon professional RL in London they years will pass and I would guess that will have a detrimental effect on the game and people playing it.

All I can offer is that if you look at where junior Rugby league thrives, and you look where the bulk of RL professionals come from it's mainly in Superleague areas. I don't think the junior game thrives outside such areas why would London be any different if pro RL was abandoned in the capital.

But I'm not advocating abandoning the pro game in the capital, just dropping down a level. This would mean, given the lower standard, more chances for local players to become first team regulars and possibly be scouted by the Northern SL sides.

[Larry the Leit]

But I'm not advocating abandoning the pro game in the capital, just dropping down a level. This would mean, given the lower standard, more chances for local players to become first team regulars and possibly be scouted by the Northern SL sides.

 

I'm not fully up to date with the finances at that level of the game, but my instinct would be that there's around £1000-£2000 a month plus other benefits available at most union clubs in the second and third tier of that game.  That's enough money to blow the wages that I guess the Skolars are paying out of the water.

 

I'm certain that this money was available about 8-10 years ago, when one of the Myler clan was driving down and playing for Stourbridge in front of two men and the proverbial dog. 

[keighley]

If your a Hunslet lad and want to play SL for Leeds you will have to leave Hunslet to do so, and move to Leeds. "It's exactly the same situation".

Except it's not, and the point you choose to deliberately completely ignore is the London lads may as well switch back to Union as their first aim.

 

Firstly, it's my impression that most youngsters playing in both London and Cumbria are RL players from the get go and not union players so they will not be switching " back" to union and many of them, especially the forwards would not easily adapt to union.

 

The distances between Hunslet and Leeds are so small that there would be no need for such players to move away from home. that's a nonsensical comparison.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Lots of questions for you to answer for yourself.

How many Championship clubs are going nowhere now?

How many clubs will be going nowhere in the future if things do change?

What do players do now who play for going nowhere clubs and what will they do in the future?

Also are London are going anywhere now?

FWIW my opinion is that SL don't generate players, it's the system far beneath it that does. Also kids of 16 are way off SL level unless they are exceptional. In these circumstances they'll travel half way round the world to play. The rest take whatever paths exist if they are passionate about it because there will be scouts and coaches in Gloucester and Oxford (for eg)who are looking for talent to justify those efforts.

so at the end of the day does London want RL? It seems yes.

But does London want the Broncos?

Excellent thought provoking post: thankd

[keighley]

Not a chance in hell of it happening down here with a club outside SL. You clearly have no idea what it's like, in RL terms, in London.

 

The Broncos get the most minuscule media coverage imaginable. Relegated to the Championship even that would disappear. The Broncos attract tiny levels of sponsorship (we went 18 months with nothing on our shirts) playing in SL. Relegated to the Championship even that would disappear. The Broncos have found it impossible to find investors, David Hughes is doing it because he can afford to and he likes having a team in SL. Relegated to the Championship he'd be gone (he's probably going soon anyway) and who would step forward? No-one, that's who.

 

It would be like going back to the mid-nineties, where London Crusaders struggled along in the second division and had no hope of ever progressing. Like the past 20 years had never happened. It's ludicrous the suggest that the club could grow or develop in any way outside of SL. Just plain ludicrous.

 

Looking at the present status of the Broncos and taking on board all the factors you quote in paragraph one of your post. I think the club has not moved forward at all since those days, except that they have Hughes on board. How are they any better now than they were at the start of the SL when they were artificially spooned into the competiton.? They have regressed since then, not progressed

 

Once Hughes has gone i do not see anyone stepping forward to replace him. The other rescued clubs had a lot more going for them than the Broncos and they were all plucked from the fire at the last moment.

 

If no investor steps forward, then the only alternative will be to play in the lower divisions, so the Broncos had better start a business plan for such an eventuality./

[petesmithfan]

Just popping in to let you all know its rather sunny out in the real world today........................................................................................ so come on guys ditch those hypothesises for an hour, knot them hankies and chill.

[Lobbygobbler]

Not a chance in hell of it happening down here with a club outside SL. You clearly have no idea what it's like, in RL terms, in London.

The Broncos get the most minuscule media coverage imaginable. Relegated to the Championship even that would disappear. The Broncos attract tiny levels of sponsorship (we went 18 months with nothing on our shirts) playing in SL. Relegated to the Championship even that would disappear. The Broncos have found it impossible to find investors, David Hughes is doing it because he can afford to and he likes having a team in SL. Relegated to the Championship he'd be gone (he's probably going soon anyway) and who would step forward? No-one, that's who.

It would be like going back to the mid-nineties, where London Crusaders struggled along in the second division and had no hope of ever progressing. Like the past 20 years had never happened. It's ludicrous the suggest that the club could grow or develop in any way outside of SL. Just plain ludicrous.

Actually Nadera, London Crusaders did pretty well in the second division and were within a whisker of promotion just before they were artificially put into SL. I think they may well have got their on their own steam within a few years and this would have been better for the club.

Btw I was in South Ealing yesterday near Lionel Rd. Why doesnt the club link up with Brentford FC? Seems like a no brainer to me. In fact imagine if the club had stayed at Brentford.....

[nadera78]

Actually Nadera, London Crusaders did pretty well in the second division and were within a whisker of promotion just before they were artificially put into SL. I think they may well have got their on their own steam within a few years and this would have been better for the club.

Btw I was in South Ealing yesterday near Lionel Rd. Why doesnt the club link up with Brentford FC? Seems like a no brainer to me. In fact imagine if the club had stayed at Brentford.....

My first season watching the club was 1993/94 when Tony Gordon took them so very very close to winning promotion. A superb team that played some stunning rugby. But my recollection is that the club was broke and being run by the RFL until Brisbane Broncos bought them halfway through the season. After the play off final they sacked Tank and appointed Gary Greinke, who made Rob Powell look a dead cert for Coach of the Year. 1994/95 was a poor season, undoing all the good work from the previous year, with a mid-table team coached by a man out of his depth and owners who'd assumed they would walk the second division. They might have rectified things after this but Brisbane's involvement in London got off to a bad start.

 

As for Brentford, well yes it does make sense to some extent. But there are two things we don't know: 1) if Brentford would be interested (although I think so as there is a shortfall in their funding) and 2) what Dave Hughes' plans are. If he is off at the end of next year then all bets are off.

[The Parksider]

Firstly, it's my impression that most youngsters playing in both London and Cumbria are RL players from the get go and not union players so they will not be switching " back" to union

I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying if you dump the regions professional club then as time goes by good young sports players will choose league less and less so there'll likely be a switch back to the days when London didn't produce many players at all.

In the good old north in regions where there's no fully pro club the production of professional players is at a low level, but keep ignoring that as you always do.

The argument that it's OK to dump the Broncos needs some meat to it and not the assertion that with no local professional club the area will just go on churning out pro players.

[audois]

How are they any better now than they were at the start of the SL when they were artificially spooned into the competiton.? They have regressed since then, not progressed.

Back 17 years where they producing players & developing players like LMS, Sarginson & Dixon. Recently their U19s have turned over Bradford, Featherstone & Castleford. They are loaning out lads regularly to the Skolars & Hemel.

[DeadShotKeen]

Looking at the present status of the Broncos and taking on board all the factors you quote in paragraph one of your post. I think the club has not moved forward at all since those days, except that they have Hughes on board. How are they any better now than they were at the start of the SL when they were artificially spooned into the competiton.? They have regressed since then, not progressed

 

Once Hughes has gone i do not see anyone stepping forward to replace him. The other rescued clubs had a lot more going for them than the Broncos and they were all plucked from the fire at the last moment.

 

If no investor steps forward, then the only alternative will be to play in the lower divisions, so the Broncos had better start a business plan for such an eventuality./

A Koukash type would fund London in a heartbeat. All they need is a guaranteed franchise in an elite league. And it won't happen, because Featherstone, Leigh and Halifax must be allowed their chance to build towards their glass ceiling of Super League mediocrity.

European rugby league has failed London as it has failed all other development areas and will almost certainly die (through lack of investment and wider indifference) in the heartland areas from whence it came.

[Robin Evans]

I thouht you'd done with us??

[keighley]

I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying if you dump the regions professional club then as time goes by good young sports players will choose league less and less so there'll likely be a switch back to the days when London didn't produce many players at all.

In the good old north in regions where there's no fully pro club the production of professional players is at a low level, but keep ignoring that as you always do.

The argument that it's OK to dump the Broncos needs some meat to it and not the assertion that with no local professional club the area will just go on churning out pro players.

 

You always make the assumption that kids take up RL with a view to turning it into a professional career. i think nothing can be farther from the truth. I think kids take up RL because they want to try it and then keep playing because they like it. The vast majority will never be either pro or semi pro. This is true anywhere amateur RL is played from Cumbria to London.The ones who do become good enough will , in the case of London, turn semi pro with the Broncos or the Skolars or Hemel and, if they become stars at that level, will move to SL clubs as countless Cumbrian youngsters have done.

 

A select few will be so good that they will come to the attention of SL clubs early and will move away to join the junior programmes at the SL clubs directly, as, again, youngsters have done from Cumbria.

 

I think you correlate the  impressive amateur and junior development of RL in the South and in London with the existence of the Broncos as a SL team and I, personally, don't think they are connected. i have mentioned this before but where is the amateur game strongest in London, Brixton, South of the river near Greenwich. in the Gillingham area. Near the skolars in Haringay.

 

Why is is not dominant in Richmond and Twickenham and Brenftord on the doorstep of the Broncos ? According to your theories that is where the strength of the amateur game in London should be fostered by the allure of the SL Broncos in the area.

 

I don't think this theory holds water. The junior/amateur game is similarly making prgress in Wales and the North east and the Midlands with nary a whiff of a SL club on the horizon.

 

 

The added option, hopefully, in the future, will that the Broncos will be psuhing for readmission to SL via promotion and will keep some of these stars on the premise that they can get to the top level by helping the club get promoted.

 

To summarise, I think junior RL will continue to thrive in London irregardless of the professional level of the Broncos and talented youngsters will still be able to gravitate to the higher levels if the game.

 

This has been the case in Cumbria for the last twenty years since Workington were the last SL club in the area. Why should the same scenario not be applicable to London.

[DAZROVER1985]

A Koukash type would fund London in a heartbeat. All they need is a guaranteed franchise in an elite league. And it won't happen, because Featherstone, Leigh and Halifax must be allowed their chance to build towards their glass ceiling of Super League mediocrity.

European rugby league has failed London as it has failed all other development areas and will almost certainly die (through lack of investment and wider indifference) in the heartland areas from whence it came.

is that the same glass ceiling hull kr have hit?

[The Parksider]

1. You always make the assumption that kids take up RL with a view to turning it into a professional career.

2. I think junior RL will continue to thrive in London irregardless of the professional level of the Broncos and talented youngsters will still be able to gravitate to the higher levels if the game.

 

3. This has been the case in Cumbria for the last twenty years since Workington were the last SL club in the area. Why should the same scenario not be applicable to London.

1. No I don't we have discussed this. The best kids who play RL eventually think about playing pro. I can only tell you in running a kids soccer team the kids were scouted at 10 years old and by 11 they were dreaming of being professionals. This was my experience. I can't speak for the 7 year olds but on intake they sported man U, Liverpool, Barcelons and Leeds shirts before they'd kicked a ball.

2. Again I'm sorry but you continue to ignore in big professional RL places like Leeds, Wigan and Hull they produce loads of young players.

In places where Rl is played at a lower level e.g. Doncaster, York, keighley, they produce hardly any professionals.

You say the "think" but i am giving you actual facts and experiences.

3. Yes there's half a dozen Cumbrians playing SL first team, and yes maybe in 10 years time there'll also be half a dozen londoners playing SL first team.

We need more pro players from outside the M62.

London is delivering a professional junior system and it's ludicrous to say that doesn't need a professional club.

It was also silly to say leigh delivered 200 more fans than Broncos on Saturday. This is about producing professional RL players and London produce more than leigh and have only been at it a few years...

[The Parksider]

But I'm not advocating abandoning the pro game in the capital, just dropping down a level.

That IS abandoining professional RL in London.

One level down is hand to mouth semi professionalism that fails to deliver professional players to the game in any number. See above

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

That IS abandoining professional RL in London.

One level down is hand to mouth semi professionalism that fails to deliver professional players to the game in any number. See above

No it isn't. If you think about it the real problem with the Championship is Neanderthaloid boards that can't accept that the world's changed, that the mines, mills and fishing industries are gone and we can't carry on as we used to. Clubs like Batleyand the Crusaders show that life outside SL can be rather good if you're prepared to smell the coffee and adapt.

[nadera78]

No it isn't. If you think about it the real problem with the Championship is Neanderthaloid boards that can't accept that the world's changed, that the mines, mills and fishing industries are gone and we can't carry on as we used to. Clubs like Batleyand the Crusaders show that life outside SL can be rather good if you're prepared to smell the coffee and adapt.

True enough, but it's also true to say that Broncos in the Championship would never be able to build a business strong enough to gain entry to SL. The club would be ignored - by the press, sponsors, investors, fans - even more than they are now. They'd also see the best academy players go up north or to union and be left with the middling players, and combining this with the lack of northerners coming down here they'd never be able to build a squad capable of challenging for promotion (assuming it's re-instated) or the title. Result? No chance of a SL presence in London for at least a generation.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

True enough, but personally I don't think that there is, or ever has been, a market for top level RL in London. I may be ploughing a lone furrow here, but nothing's happened in the capital so far to make me change my mind.

[keighley]

Back 17 years where they producing players & developing players like LMS, Sarginson & Dixon. Recently their U19s have turned over Bradford, Featherstone & Castleford. They are loaning out lads regularly to the Skolars & Hemel.

 

Is this due to the Broncos efforts or is it due to the great advances in amateur and youth Rugby from the london amateur clubs producing many more players and Boncos have benefitted from that and reaped the rewards.

 

If London are better now at producing players due to this, they are failing on other fronts, i.e. their playing record is abysmal, their crowds are abysmal and their ground situation is precarious whereas before they once averaged around 5,000, beat an Australian team on the WCC, came second in the league and got to the Cup Final and they were playing at Charlton which seemed to be a better draw for the spectators than The Stoop.

 

On balance i would say they have regressed more than progressed. Let's hope they start to turn the corner and, at least, get to the Cup semi finals this season but I think there might be a banana peel lying in their path at Sheffield.

[keighley]

A Koukash type would fund London in a heartbeat. All they need is a guaranteed franchise in an elite league. And it won't happen, because Featherstone, Leigh and Halifax must be allowed their chance to build towards their glass ceiling of Super League mediocrity.

European rugby league has failed London as it has failed all other development areas and will almost certainly die (through lack of investment and wider indifference) in the heartland areas from whence it came.

 

 I think any investor would be seriously put off by the lack of a ground and the long downward trend of attendances. i do hope i am wrong. A strong Broncos would be great for the game but the trend is of a seriously long term decline.

 

Despite the downward trend in attendances this season, I think the heartlands are still reasonably strong, stronger than London at any rate. Catalans are an expansionary area for SL, despite having a previous history in the game, and they are going in exactlt the opposire direction to the Broncos.

 

Sheffield. another expansion area, also are making encouraging progress and, if the new stadium comes off, and they get to SL, their crowds will soon equal those of the Broncos. They are only about 900 off the pace playing in the Championship.