The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Griff]

London aren't having a season ticket next season.  If, in future, they still exist and are in partnership with Barnet they will never have a season ticket set up again.

 

Your plan has already failed.

 

Another sneer.  27000+ posts and that's the best you can come up with.

 

Seriously - is that really a problem that cannot be overcome ?  If London have no season tickets then I expect their supporters will be paying at the gate.

[gingerjon]

Another sneer.  27000+ posts and that's the best you can come up with.

 

Seriously - is that really a problem that cannot be overcome ?  If London have no season tickets then I expect their supporters will be paying at the gate.

 

Not another sneer.  You say you've solved it because you've an idea you like.  It's not been debated anywhere else and there's already, off the top of my head, one place where it won't work.

 

So, you've not solved it.

[Griff]

Not another sneer.  You say you've solved it because you've an idea you like.  It's not been debated anywhere else and there's already, off the top of my head, one place where it won't work.

 

So, you've not solved it.

 

Some club choosing not to take part doesn't invalidate the scheme or mean that it fails.

 

This is off topic - if you want to debate it, start another thread.

[gingerjon]

Some club choosing not to take part doesn't invalidate the scheme or mean that it fails.

 

 

If it's about sharing out Challenge Cup/play off  ticket revenue, which I'd thought it was, then it rather does as it would presumably also impact anyone they happened to be playing?

[Griff]

If it's about sharing out Challenge Cup/play off  ticket revenue, which I'd thought it was, then it rather does as it would presumably also impact anyone they happened to be playing?

 

Why ?  They don't have season tickets, their supporters won't be producing any vouchers.  Half of nothing is nothing.  The RFL can still make them honour the opponents' vouchers and the opponents would be deemed to have received the agreed tenner (or whatever) in the gate share calculation.

 

Say what you like, but the clubs were right about one thing - something needs to be done about low crowds at shared gate games. Glibly dismissing ideas as unworkable is fine - if you come up with a better plan.

[gingerjon]

 

 

Say what you like, but the clubs were right about one thing - something needs to be done about low crowds at shared gate games. Glibly dismissing ideas as unworkable is fine - if you come up with a better plan.

 

I'm not actually glibly dismissing anything - more picking up on the idea that one idea solves everything when it hasn't even been tested yet.  I don't have a better plan but I will point out that this problem has been seen in pretty much every sport and has got worse since we all started having no money.  Crowds for cup games at all levels of soccer are consistently lower than their league equivalent for example.  And even the world's richest sport found its most passionate fans struggling:  the NFL didn't sell out the first round of play off fixtures.  3 of the games required additional time to sell enough tickets to ensure games could be shown on TV (local markets can be blacked out in order to encourage fans to attend).

[Griff]

I'm not actually glibly dismissing anything - more picking up on the idea that one idea solves everything when it hasn't even been tested yet.  I don't have a better plan but I will point out that this problem has been seen in pretty much every sport and has got worse since we all started having no money.  Crowds for cup games at all levels of soccer are consistently lower than their league equivalent for example.  And even the world's richest sport found its most passionate fans struggling:  the NFL didn't sell out the first round of play off fixtures.  3 of the games required additional time to sell enough tickets to ensure games could be shown on TV (local markets can be blacked out in order to encourage fans to attend).

 

Solves everything ?  Jeez - I never claimed it was that good.

 

There's a generally held opinion - and there's dozens if not hundreds of posts on these fora saying this - that season ticket holders don't turn up to shared gate games because they have to pay at the gate.  I don't actually think that's the whole story - though it may be partly true.  I think it's more to do with how the game's promoted by the clubs, prospect of one-sided games, short notice at, particularly, play-off games (where the turnaround can be as little as four days) - but, if we don't do something to prove or disprove the theory, then it'll rumble on.  Just as, if we don't do Twelves and Eights next year, it'll be hailed as the saviour of the game - if only we'd gone down that route.

 

Incidentally - season tickets were apparently the frayed thread that was holding the game together a few months ago, on a thread I haven't time to find at the moment.  London aren't having them - interesting.

[gingerjon]

Solves everything ?  Jeez - I never claimed it was that good.

 

There's a generally held opinion - and there's dozens if not hundreds of posts on these fora saying this - that season ticket holders don't turn up to shared gate games because they have to pay at the gate.  I don't actually think that's the whole story - though it may be partly true.  I think it's more to do with how the game's promoted by the clubs, prospect of one-sided games, short notice at, particularly, play-off games (where the turnaround can be as little as four days) - but, if we don't do something to prove or disprove the theory, then it'll rumble on.  Just as, if we don't do Twelves and Eights next year, it'll be hailed as the saviour of the game - if only we'd gone down that route.

 

Incidentally - season tickets were apparently the frayed thread that was holding the game together a few months ago, on a thread I haven't time to find at the moment.  London aren't having them - interesting.

 

London not having them is pretty stupid in my opinion but then London don't even really exist any more.  There are having a membership scheme (I honestly don't know how it works) because that's what Barnet FC have.  Still, a month from the start of the season and you can't buy one yet anyway.

 

There is a problem with the play off element of the season at the minute and that's that the Top 8 isn't particularly exciting and it's easy to disparage.  It doesn't help that we have a small media presence and within it virtually all of them like to lead with doom and gloom: so a dull match in a system they don't like in front of a lower than average crowd and they can barely type for the bulge in their trousers.

 

I don't know if the crowd problems were replicated in the Championships but I'd be surprised if it was as noticeable - not least because the set up seems to produce a more enjoyable competition.

 

I'm just instinctively wary of anything that further makes rugby league a budget sport.  We're already about half the price of the lowest level of professional soccer and you can get to see our World Cup final for a tenner.  Now we're selling the play offs and cup cheap and hoping to god people have got space in their diary to show ...  This at a time when the movement at Red Hall is to create *more* professional clubs ...

[Dave T]

This is where we disagree.  It accentuates the split between the top eight and the rest, making it even harder to break into the real $uperleague, which is the top eight not the top twelve.

 

That's why it's bad for the game as a whole.

All 12 teams will play 23 games in Super League. The bottom 4 will then play in playoffs against lower teams instead of their season just ending. I'm not sure why you think that will widen the gap between the top 8 and bottom 4. They should still be looking to make improvements for the following year in just the same way as happens now.

[Griff]

Membership scheme = season ticket + a few extras.

 

It's not about being a budget sport.  Giving a free Challenge Cup voucher away was about being a budget sport.  Charging for a Challenge Cup voucher included in your season ticket is not about being a budget sport.

 

That was the point.  The concept was right - the finances were not

[Griff]

All 12 teams will play 23 games in Super League. The bottom 4 will then play in playoffs against lower teams instead of their season just ending. I'm not sure why you think that will widen the gap between the top 8 and bottom 4. They should still be looking to make improvements for the following year in just the same way as happens now.

 

Because I'd expect the bottom four of the top twelve to have significantly lower gates.  See Parky's excellent posts and analysis.

[gingerjon]

Because I'd expect the bottom four of the top twelve to have significantly lower gates. 

 

Probably lower match sponsorship and other revenues too.

 

But I suspect: not any reduced expenditure.

[Dave T]

Because I'd expect the bottom four of the top twelve to have significantly lower gates.  See Parky's excellent posts and analysis.

It depends on how they are sold.

 

Season tickets can be sold based on current rates - 13/14 home games. I'd be stunned if this is voted in and we suddenly get a price reduction in Season Tickets and we drop to 11 home games.

 

Playoffs can't currently be included in season tickets as there are no guarantees you will be in them, now this is guaranteed.

[Dave T]

We also haven't heard what will happen with gate money. IIRC at the moment playoff games go into a shared pot. Who has said this won't happen with the extended playoffs from 2015 - therefore stopping the rich getting richer?

[Griff]

We also haven't heard what will happen with gate money. IIRC at the moment playoff games go into a shared pot. Who has said this won't happen with the extended playoffs from 2015 - therefore stopping the rich getting richer?

 

There's a lot of questions to be answered.  Although I suspect that clubs will keep their home gates in the Eight-phase, enabling them to include them in their season tickets.

 

Whether this is a good thing, I'm not sure.  You could get 14 or 15 games for your money and no guarantee which.

[The Parksider]

This figure of 3328 would probably represent nearly a 100% improvement in attendances for leigh compared to their 2013 CC average (don't have exact figure at my finger-tips) so I am sure they would be pleased if they got that again or even topped it

 

Leigh's "ageing fanbase" (their own words) is down to 1,556 now.

[The Parksider]

We also haven't heard what will happen with gate money. IIRC at the moment playoff games go into a shared pot. Who has said this won't happen with the extended playoffs from 2015 - therefore stopping the rich getting richer?

 

We await the fine detail which may only come once/if they decide to do it.

 

If ths 3x8 is a "play off" be warned how poor playoff crowds are wether SL or CC1.

 

If all fixtures are league fixtures on a season ticket then they will be less likely to share the money.

[The Parksider]

I get the top 8 is the real Super League, it's pretty clear there are 6 clubs in there that can't really hack it.

 

Question is, do we continue and have a bit of a shambolic competition or change it to allow those 6 (+2) to find a level that they can hack?

 

Do we want zombie clubs making up the numbers, or do we want a vibrant competition at all levels?

 

Interesting point and the "Zombie" club chairmen have made it clear they don't like the glass ceiling, but it depends which way the vote goes.

 

You seem to be ambiguous here in stating that Zombie SL clubs and Zombie CC clubs can get together for a competition at Zombie level.

 

Yet somehow that will be  a"Vibrant" competition???  How so??

 

I think your choice of words needs thinking about Ponte??

[Dave T]

We await the fine detail which may only come once/if they decide to do it.

 

If ths 3x8 is a "play off" be warned how poor playoff crowds are wether SL or CC1.

 

If all fixtures are league fixtures on a season ticket then they will be less likely to share the money.

So the onus is on clubs to sell season ticket. No difference to now. 

 

Still don't understand how this is going to make things worse.

[Dave T]

There's a lot of questions to be answered.  Although I suspect that clubs will keep their home gates in the Eight-phase, enabling them to include them in their season tickets.

 

Whether this is a good thing, I'm not sure.  You could get 14 or 15 games for your money and no guarantee which.

I think you are right, but then I do think that is good value.

 

I suspect that after 23 rounds if you have been losing the majority of these, I think you'll enjoy the battle of the playoffs where you are playing for your SL future.

[Ponterover]

Interesting point and the "Zombie" club chairmen have made it clear they don't like the glass ceiling, but it depends which way the vote goes.

 

You seem to be ambiguous here in stating that Zombie SL clubs and Zombie CC clubs can get together for a competition at Zombie level.

 

Yet somehow that will be  a"Vibrant" competition???  How so??

 

I think your choice of words needs thinking about Ponte??

 

In terms of a 14 club, closed off SL, there are 6 zombies.

 

A more suitable structure gives them something to play for will revitalise these clubs (IMHO), I know you'll disagree.

[Dave T]

Interesting point and the "Zombie" club chairmen have made it clear they don't like the glass ceiling, but it depends which way the vote goes.

 

You seem to be ambiguous here in stating that Zombie SL clubs and Zombie CC clubs can get together for a competition at Zombie level.

 

Yet somehow that will be  a"Vibrant" competition???  How so??

 

I think your choice of words needs thinking about Ponte??

I think it is clear that the zombie reference is about clubs where they have little to play for and just go through the motions. If this new proposal comes in there is no way you can just go through the motions. Surely you can appreciate that this may be more vibrant and attractive to some?

[Ponterover]

We await the fine detail which may only come once/if they decide to do it.

 

If ths 3x8 is a "play off" be warned how poor playoff crowds are wether SL or CC1.

 

If all fixtures are league fixtures on a season ticket then they will be less likely to share the money.

 

The thing is Parky, all 24 clubs in the top two divisions will be able to advance sell their "play off" games on the season ticket, because they will all get a guaranteed number of "play off" games.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I think it is clear that the zombie reference is about clubs where they have little to play for and just go through the motions. If this new proposal comes in there is no way you can just go through the motions. Surely you can appreciate that this may be more vibrant and attractive to some?

Two of those 'zombie' teams were four points off the play offs

One of them was five points off

Some zombies

[Dave T]

Two of those 'zombie' teams were four points off the play offs

One of them was five points off

Some zombies

Yup, it wasn't my phrase.