The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Yup, it wasn't my phrase.

I know mate Edited January 10, 2014 by l'angelo mysterioso

[Griff]

The thing is Parky, all 24 clubs in the top two divisions will be able to advance sell their "play off" games on the season ticket, because they will all get a guaranteed number of "play off" games.

 

But not a guaranteed number of home games.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

You can't say at the start of the season that they'll be guaranteed home fixtures.

You can't guarantee that there'll be 3-4 home fixtures during the last quarter of the season under the proposed format?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

But not a guaranteed number of home games.

So they'll actually have MORE games on the season tickets regardless?

The fact that there may or may not be an extra home game is irrelevant. They used to have the 4th round of the CC on the season ticket regardless of whether it was home or away. Hardly a difficult issue.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Wellsy4HullFC

[Dave T]

But not a guaranteed number of home games.

14 guaranteed home games. You may get 15, but 14 are guaranteed.

[Griff]

14 guaranteed home games. You may get 15, but 14 are guaranteed.

 

So do you set your price on 14 or 15 ?

[Dave T]

So do you set your price on 14 or 15 ?

You set a price that people will pay that will bring in the required income.

 

The prices are quite varied between clubs for current season tickets, in fact that are varied within a club due to renewals, early birds etc. The prices are pretty much made up anyway.

[Griff]

You set a price that people will pay that will bring in the required income.

 

Easier said than done.

[yipyee]

Membership scheme = season ticket + a few extras.

It's not about being a budget sport. Giving a free Challenge Cup voucher away was about being a budget sport. Charging for a Challenge Cup voucher included in your season ticket is not about being a budget sport.

That was the point. The concept was right - the finances were not

what if your teams not at home?

[yipyee]

The thing is Parky, all 24 clubs in the top two divisions will be able to advance sell their "play off" games on the season ticket, because they will all get a guaranteed number of "play off" games.

I though there was going to be play offs after the split....

Top 4 in SL 8 in straight knockout?? So who will buy these tickets?

[Ponterover]

I though there was going to be play offs after the split....

Top 4 in SL 8 in straight knockout?? So who will buy these tickets?

 

We're talking about the 7 games after the split, which essentially is the first phase of the play offs.  Every one of the twenty four will get at least 3 and possibly 4 extra home games to sell.

[yipyee]

So they'll actually have MORE games on the season tickets regardless?

The fact that there may or may not be an extra home game is irrelevant. They used to have the 4th round of the CC on the season ticket regardless of whether it was home or away. Hardly a difficult issue.

it is though, who will pay the stadium costs for that extra game?

Didnt the RFL pick up the tab for the free CCup games?

[yipyee]

We're talking about the 7 games after the split, which essentially is the first phase of the play offs. Every one of the twenty four will get at least 3 and possibly 4 extra home games to sell.

so would I be buying 3 or 4 games? Would I get a refund for just 3?

also it doesn't solve the problem that the REAL playoffs will be a hard sell as per usual!

Edited January 10, 2014 by yipyee

[redjonn]

Last go now.

 

Warrington averaged 10,465 last year but if they had not played Salford and London and it had been a 12 clubs league they would have averaged 10,888.

 

Under 2x12 = 3x8 they would play the 11 and then play some top clubs again. That could have the effect of pushing the crowds to an average of 11,000.

 

13 games x 10,465 = 136,045 fans through the gate this year. 

 

Under the proposed 2x12=3x8 Warrington woould likely get 159,500 fans through the gate with more and better fixtures. Yes it will benefit Warrington at the expense of lower SL clubs.

 

I do think the figures say that what this is about is Superleague cutting to eight and letting the moaning minnies who find it too rich for them down gently.

 

All dressed up as "All for the good of the game" an attitude which after 120 years will be a massive sea change?

 

I agree with your general premise, but not so sure on the potential increase in attendance being sustained for the super 8.   No evidence but purely speculation of playing the teams so many times may dilute desire to always attend as the seasons go over the years. 

 

That is will play each team  x3 times minimal, one team at least x4 times taking account of magic weekend.  Then have the final top 4 play-off round will mean at least 4^th time played that team and possible x5 times depending on magic weekend.  Ignoring the final which will always be a special occasion.  I guess it will also depend how they package the season tickets for the first play-off “league” rounds in the x8 league when some teams will have more home games and can not guarantee will be in top 8 when first selling the season tickets at beginning of season.

 

I wonder how it will further hit the challenge cup as years go on if playing the teams so often in the "normal" league structure.

Edited January 10, 2014 by redjonn

[yipyee]

I agree with your general premise, but not so sure on the potential increase in attendance being sustained for the super 8. No evidence but purely speculation of playing the teams so many times may dilute desire to always attend as the seasons go over the years.

That is will play each team x3 times minimal, one team at least x4 times taking account of magic weekend. Then have the final top 4 play-off round will mean at least 4^th time played that team and possible x5 times depending on magic weekend. Ignoring the final which will always be a special occasion. I guess it will also depend how they package the season tickets for the first play-off “league” rounds in the x8 league when some teams will have more home games and can not guarantee will be in top 8 when first selling the season tickets at beginning of season.

I wonder how it will further hit the challenge cup as years go on if playing the teams so often in the "normal" league structure.

I agree here If the games were packaged I would only buy the super8s package, it will also definitely hit the cup...

[redjonn]

it is though, who will pay the stadium costs for that extra game?

Didnt the RFL pick up the tab for the free CCup games?

 

How do they do it now as the play-offs gate money currently goes to RFL and is then shared. I assume the RFL pick up tab for stadium costs now given they take the gate-money now.

[yipyee]

How do they do it now as the play-offs gate money currently goes to RFL and is then shared. I assume the RFL pick up tab for stadium costs now given they take the gate-money now.

it will be a percentage of gate money or a set figure.....

but the suggestion is to sell a ticket for 3 games and then open it for free for a 4th if necessary. ...but nothing is free WHO WILL PAY??????

[redjonn]

I agree here If the games were packaged I would only buy the super8s package, it will also definitely hit the cup...

 

Worse case is a team could play another team x6 times in a season depending upon magic weekend and challenge cup draw and how well a team does in making the final round of play-offs.  Especial more likely for those teams likely to be in top 4 spots on a regular basis, say a wigan or warrington. I like watching us play Wigan but 6 times would weaken my desire and interest - may as well just wait until it really matters games.

[yipyee]

Worse case is a team could play another team x6 times in a season depending upon magic weekend and challenge cup draw and how well a team does in making the final round of play-offs. Especial more likely for those teams likely to be in top 4 spots on a regular basis, say a wigan or warrington. I like watching us play Wigan but 6 times would weaken my desire and interest - may as well just wait until it really matters games.

Exactly, and you could pick and choose one off additional games I.e. Easter etc....

[Ponterover]

it will be a percentage of gate money or a set figure.....

but the suggestion is to sell a ticket for 3 games and then open it for free for a 4th if necessary. ...but nothing is free WHO WILL PAY??????

Edited January 10, 2014 by Ponterover

[redjonn]

it will be a percentage of gate money or a set figure.....

but the suggestion is to sell a ticket for 3 games and then open it for free for a 4th if necessary. ...but nothing is free WHO WILL PAY??????

 

your right of course wouldn't make sense financially.  Could have an approach that charge max amount, say x4 games and if only x3 the extra monies gets carried over onto your season ticket/membership card for the following season.

[redjonn]

 

it will be a percentage of gate money or a set figure.....

but the suggestion is to sell a ticket for 3 games and then open it for free for a 4th if necessary. ...but nothing is free WHO WILL PAY??????

 

my mistake in quoting 

Edited January 10, 2014 by redjonn

[keighley]

There's not enough stats to work on but in 2006 Castleford averaged a crowd of 7,499 against the top eight in a 12 club Superleague inc. London and Salford. They averaged only 6,497 against their fellow bottom club strugglers Catalans, Wakefield and Huddersfield.

 

If they had played those games again and added games against top CC sides at the time - Halifax, Sheffield, Leigh and Widnes - which they DID DO the following season because they went down and scrapped with those clubs for promotion back into Superleague then the average comes out at 5,770.

 

There's an example of a club going down but successfully regaining their Superleague place. If anyone doesn't like the stats do your own, but the principle was then that if you get demoted and lose league fixtures against the top sides, but instead get league fixtures against Championship sides..............

 

Your crowds will go down. It doesn't even needs the stats to know that.  KPMG are a figures based outfit and I suggest they haven't done them. Castleford actually won all but one league game getting back to SL at first go so even on the field success could not replace all the lost fans.

 

If winners lose crowds "dropping down" then lord help the rest. RL fans don't like their clubs dropping down, RL fans don't like second tier stuff. Even the winners of the "Middle 8" face a drop in attendances on figures, logic and reason.

 

The 6497 average against the bottom tier includes the derby against Wakefield which is usually a big attendance to that might inflate that average a little from what ti would have been without the derby.

 

However, be that as it may the difference between that and the 2nd div average is only 727. How many of that number were visiting fans from the SL opposition. the actual loss of true blue Castleford fans might have been only around 600.

 

I think it's a given that the crowds go down on relegatioin, after all, the relegated club is coming off a bad and losing season, but in the case od Castleford it was not really that bad.

[keighley]

Let's look at Leigh. 2005 bottom four of Superleague with Salford, Wakefield and Widnes. Average SL crowd 4,750. Average league crowd against those three clubs they were trying to overtake to stay up was 4,289.

 

They went down, but stayed competitive and scrapped to return to superleague with HKR, Widnes, Whitehaven and Rochdale. They held second spot for most of the season.

 

Just add the league crowds they had over the period they were fighting to stay in SL and then fighting to get back, against those seven clubs who would have been their "Middle 8" and the average is 3,328.

 

KPMG appear to say that this middle 8 will bring the crowds in, the figures say otherwise.

 

What the figures say to me is the top 8 Superleague clubs is where the crowds will go right up. It's only my opinion and I respect others opinions but the choice is whether we believe that the top eight clubs are voting for this because it will be great for the game as a whole, OR whether it will be great for the top 8 clubs crowds???

 

Finally pushing clubs down a division historically does them a lot of damage. Anyone care to have a thought for the  Championship clubs already struggling badly who will be downgraded to third and fourth grade??

 

I'd guess not, not after 2761 posts of them being ignored.

 

You are right. This 3 x 8 format is designed to perpetuate a top 8. It will hurt the clubs in the middle and the clubs at the bottom will be in serious trouble. It almost seems like a gigantic plot to create a small elite top level and get rid of all the stragglers in the lower divisions by pushing them down and keeping them there. 1 up and 1 down for me.

[yipyee]

You are right. This 3 x 8 format is designed to perpetuate a top 8. It will hurt the clubs in the middle and the clubs at the bottom will be in serious trouble. It almost seems like a gigantic plot to create a small elite top level and get rid of all the stragglers in the lower divisions by pushing them down and keeping them there. 1 up and 1 down for me.

after reading this I am starting to like the sound of this new format.....