The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Southerner]

Why not the top four? Obvious to me

That could mean 4 SL teams relegated in one season. That would certainly make the middle tier interesting along with the top tier for normal reasons but not sure of the significance of the third tier!

[Ponterover]

 I would like to hear what the benefits are for Championship clubs that are not in the top four?

 

There's a good article in League Weekly this week, that shows the proposed distribution of monies and they're based on league position, plenty for the clubs outside the top 4 to play for.

[nadera78]

That could mean 4 SL teams relegated in one season. That would certainly make the middle tier interesting along with the top tier for normal reasons but not sure of the significance of the third tier!

You want to see what will happen when the 4 SL teams meet the 4 Championship teams? Sheffield v London was last week.

 

The only remote chance the 3x8 system has of working is if all the clubs get the same funding - and there isn't enough money in the game to do that. If there was we wouldn't need this ridiculous format.

[Ponterover]

You want to see what will happen when the 4 SL teams meet the 4 Championship teams? Sheffield v London was last week.

 

 

 

Except it won't

 

The "new" championship will look nothing like the current one.  For starters there will be two ex-Super League clubs, plus there is more money from the RFL and the bigger clubs like Fax, Fev, Leigh and maybe Sheffield will be able to move towards a more full time environment.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.

[nadera78]

Except it won't

 

The "new" championship will look nothing like the current one.  For starters there will be two ex-Super League clubs, plus there is more money from the RFL and the bigger clubs like Fax, Fev, Leigh and maybe Sheffield will be able to move towards a more full time environment.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Now, if you'd read the whole post instead of jumping in at the first line you'd have realised I mentioned the funding issue.

 

The only way this can work is if all the clubs receive the same funding. And, at the moment anyway, it doesn't look like they will be.

[Griff]

That could mean 4 SL teams relegated in one season. That would certainly make the middle tier interesting along with the top tier for normal reasons but not sure of the significance of the third tier!

Possible but highly unlikely.

The likelihood is that no teams are relegated in most seasons.

[Ponterover]

Now, if you'd read the whole post instead of jumping in at the first line you'd have realised I mentioned the funding issue.

 

The only way this can work is if all the clubs receive the same funding. And, at the moment anyway, it doesn't look like they will be.

 

Of course they won't receive the same funding.

 

It would be absurd to give the same money to the 1st and 2nd divisions.

 

The point that I don't think you're getting is that the 2nd division will receive enough money (up to £0.5m per year depending on league position) to fund a near full time set up.

 

The Sheffield/London game demonstrated (along with the Fev/Cas, Fev/Wigan and Batley/London games last year) that a team spending less than £300k on players isn't a million miles away from those spending £1.2m-1.6m.

 

There will be at least 4 championship clubs that can spend around £1m on players, do you think they will struggle so badly against the poorer SL teams?

[Pottsy]

Possible but highly unlikely.

The likelihood is that no teams are relegated in most seasons.

And that's what the RFL is banking on. Only Mark Aston seems to have wised up to this so far though.

[nadera78]

Of course they won't receive the same funding.

 

It would be absurd to give the same money to the 1st and 2nd divisions.

 

The point that I don't think you're getting is that the 2nd division will receive enough money (up to £0.5m per year depending on league position) to fund a near full time set up.

 

The Sheffield/London game demonstrated (along with the Fev/Cas, Fev/Wigan and Batley/London games last year) that a team spending less than £300k on players isn't a million miles away from those spending £1.2m-1.6m.

 

There will be at least 4 championship clubs that can spend around £1m on players, do you think they will struggle so badly against the poorer SL teams?

1) The point you're not getting is that if funding is dependent on finishing position then it won't be paid until after the season is completed so it will be no use to them until the following season at the earliest. And even then they'll only win that prize money if they finish in certain positions - unlikely if they're part-timers and the 4 other clubs are all full-time. 

 

2) Those games, with the exception of Fev/Cas and at the time Cas were in all sorts of difficulties, showed that there is still a gulf between the two leagues. And that was only in one-off games. If Sheffield were to follow up last weeks game against London with a fixture against another SL club this week the scoreline would be even greater. And again the following week. RL does not allow room for differences in skill level between pro teams, it certainly doesn't allow room for differences in fitness levels.

 

You're deluding yourself if you think the 3x8 format is designed for anything other than 4 SL clubs being re-promoted each year.

[Ponterover]

1) The point you're not getting is that if funding is dependent on finishing position then it won't be paid until after the season is completed so it will be no use to them until the following season at the earliest. And even then they'll only win that prize money if they finish in certain positions - unlikely if they're part-timers and the 4 other clubs are all full-time. 

 

2) Those games, with the exception of Fev/Cas and at the time Cas were in all sorts of difficulties, showed that there is still a gulf between the two leagues. And that was only in one-off games. If Sheffield were to follow up last weeks game against London with a fixture against another SL club this week the scoreline would be even greater. And again the following week. RL does not allow room for differences in skill level between pro teams, it certainly doesn't allow room for differences in fitness levels.

 

You're deluding yourself if you think the 3x8 format is designed for anything other than 4 SL clubs being re-promoted each year.

 

1 - No **** Sherlock.  Have you heard of outside investment, gate money and sponsorship? You are making an assumption that the top championship teams will part time, they won't.

 

2 - Again you are assuming that Fev and Sheffield will be part time.  I can't speak for Sheffield, but Fev will certainly be full or near full time.

 

I am under no illusion that movement between the leagues will be challenging, if it was easy, who would bother watching?   There won't be any 4 up, 4 down years (sorry Lobby), but you will see regular movement, but it will be one or two at most per year. And yes, some years there will be no movement.

[nadera78]

1 - No **** Sherlock.  Have you heard of outside investment, gate money and sponsorship? You are making an assumption that the top championship teams will part time, they won't.

 

2 - Again you are assuming that Fev and Sheffield will be part time.  I can't speak for Sheffield, but Fev will certainly be full or near full time.

 

I am under no illusion that movement between the leagues will be challenging, if it was easy, who would bother watching?   There won't be any 4 up, 4 down years (sorry Lobby), but you will see regular movement, but it will be one or two at most per year. And yes, some years there will be no movement.

There will be many more years with no movement at all than years with even one club moving up. See how long your 'outside investment' lasts when that becomes clear.

 

Do you honestly think the bottom end SL clubs would be going along with this if they thought there was a realistic chance of them getting relegated?

Edited July 19, 2013 by nadera78

[thundergaz]

There will be many more years with no movement at all than years with even one club moving up. See how long your 'outside investment' lasts when that becomes clear.

Do you honestly think the bottom end SL clubs would be going along with this if they thought there was a realistic chance of them getting relegated?

Well if both leagues are full time which by the sounds of it that's what the RFL are aiming for. Then the gulf between the bottom end of SL and the top of the championship won't be anywhere near as big as it is now. The salary cap plays a big part in the gulf but IMO the full time against part time plays a bigger part. Their is plenty of championship players who could easily make the step up to SL rugby as we've seen over the last few years as the players that have been picked up most have easily stepped up and been counted. I personally don't like the 3x8 idea I would much prefer one up one down or two up two down.

[ckn]

There will be many more years with no movement at all than years with even one club moving up. See how long your 'outside investment' lasts when that becomes clear.

 

Do you honestly think the bottom end SL clubs would be going along with this if they thought there was a realistic chance of them getting relegated?

It's not a full league season, it's a few extra games that won't allow for levelling out of team strengths over a season.  All it needs is one "cup spirit" performance from the SL2 side while the SL1 side has a shocker and they're a game down and right in the drop zone.  Even a single lost game from a SL1 side against a SL2 side could easily see them get relegated.

 

As an aside, I also don't really get relegation dogfight games.  It's rare that you ever get a quality game, they're exciting for those with a vested interest in the outcome but usually they're nervy affairs of the worst sides in the league with both sides trying not to make mistakes.  In this format, the SL2 sides will have nothing to lose but the SL1 sides will be in full relegation dogfight mode.

[thundergaz]

And that's what the RFL is banking on. Only Mark Aston seems to have wised up to this so far though.

The only reason Aston is against the idea is because I very much doubt the eagles will be able to go full time( I could be wrong) But if that is the case they will get left behind and I think that's what Aston is more worried about that the 3x8 idea.

[Griff]

There will be at least 4 championship clubs that can spend around £1m on players, do you think they will struggle so badly against the poorer SL teams?

Will there ? Who are they ?

[Griff]

Well if both leagues are full time which by the sounds of it that's what the RFL are aiming for.

They might be talking the talk but they're definitely not walking the walk when they propose such a funding gulf. No championship club can go full time without a sugar daddy (many $uperleague sides can't do it).

Then there's the question of getting players to sign for you. Players are generally optimistic about the team's abilities, they're more likely to sign for a team already in the top 12 than one with ambitions to do so.

Everyone's getting carried away with the possibility of promotion without considering the reality.

[The Parksider]

They might be talking the talk but they're definitely not walking the walk when they propose such a funding gulf. No championship club can go full time without a sugar daddy (many $uperleague sides can't do it).Then there's the question of getting players to sign for you. Players are generally optimistic about the team's abilities, they're more likely to sign for a team already in the top 12 than one with ambitions to do so.Everyone's getting carried away with the possibility of promotion without considering the reality.

IMHO Ponte & Nadera are probably half right each. Initially we may not be able to predict the ups and downs whilst in time a big gap may appear between the two fours. Maybe the gap will be between 5 clubs and 3 clubs or whatever.

Where the middle clubs will be in a couple of years and beyond will depend on investment from rich men. If castleford were relegated next year and went skint and Nahaboo funds Fev heavily you have a switch there. If Halifax are funded by Abbot & Co. they'll be looking to pick off such as Broncos.

Beyond that it looks bleak for Sheffield who have no resources and leigh who have little more. These clubs who are big fish in a small pond may drop back in terms of success on the pitch in an SL2 which would affect crowds and there's no sign of investors for them.

The competition will be for me a competition to see who will invest the most in their team, and for me that's why they are doing this. To get more private money into the game the RFL/SLE appear to be making it easy for chairmen to drop on a club, spend all their money on players and ride into SL.

Perhaps Dessie will be back for Barrow?

Edited July 19, 2013 by The Parksider

[a.n Other]

Everyone's getting carried away with the possibility of promotion without considering the reality.

Of course they are, it's what sport all about. A possibility of being promoted for what you do on the pitch is better than what we have had during licensing.

You may not like the sport side of rugby, but I do and can't wait for the new structures to come in.

[Griff]

Of course they are, it's what sport all about. A possibility of being promoted for what you do on the pitch is better than what we have had during licensing.

You may not like the sport side of rugby, but I do and can't wait for the new structures to come in.

I can't help thinking what a disaster it would have been for RL in Barrow had we had automatic promotion in 2009.

[DeadShotKeen]

Of course they are, it's what sport all about. A possibility of being promoted for what you do on the pitch is better than what we have had during licensing.

You may not like the sport side of rugby, but I do and can't wait for the new structures to come in.

 

So how do you account for the massive success of NFL, NRL, NBA, NHL etc.? Clearly for an enormous chunk of the world sports viewership (probably the majority), P&R is not "what sport is all about".

 

Sport for me is about thrills, spills, unpredictability and the best going up against the best week in-week out and P&R is actually IMHO (and in the opinion of many) detrimental to achieving those ends.

[South Wakefield Sharks]

Has there been anything about salary caps? That will be important for the middle 8 play-offs.

 

Better funding for the clubs outside the top 12 will be important, but it'll be for the individual clubs to find ways to get hold of the rest of the money they'll need. If Fev can do that on the back of a sugar daddy, good on them. If Sheffield can't because no-one wants to invest in them, that's just life.

[The Parksider]

P&R is not "what sport is all about".

 

What's your considered take Keeney on Neil Hudgel declaring he's no longer investing and is standing down due to the "glass ceiling" then when these changes come along all of a sudden he's no longer standing down?

[nadera78]

I've just read the article on the Fev website about their new investment. Mr Nahaboo makes an astonishing statement. 

 

"We believe we now have the strategy, plan and financial resource to compete with the top two or three clubs in the UK"

 

Good luck with that one! 

[Griff]

Has there been anything about salary caps? That will be important for the middle 8 play-offs.

This is the key for me. Instead of deciding on a format and then putting together some totally inadequate funding proposal, the whole thing needs to be done together.

 

Better funding for the clubs outside the top 12 will be important, but it'll be for the individual clubs to find ways to get hold of the rest of the money they'll need. If Fev can do that on the back of a sugar daddy, good on them. If Sheffield can't because no-one wants to invest in them, that's just life.

Rugby League needs to decide whether it wants to fund itself by sugar daddies. If it does, fine, but you then need to get rid of the salary cap, which would make no sense, and stop whinging when clubs go bust/hit very very hard times when the sugar daddy pulls the plug.

[Griff]

I've just read the article on the Fev website about their new investment. Mr Nahaboo makes an astonishing statement. 

 

"We believe we now have the strategy, plan and financial resource to compete with the top two or three clubs in the UK"

 

Good luck with that one!

Very bold statement.