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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Just get her on speed of light or forward passes ;)

 

I'm working on it.

 

Do you know that light curves its path when it goes past a body of large mass,

 

Therefore fat forwards could confuse the ref about what is and isn't forward.

 

More obviously a problem int tother rugby game.

Edited by Padge

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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The Caine report 40 years ago said what needed to happen as did Framing the Future, 

 

The lack of will to change is slowly killing this game, tails do not wag dogs.

 

I think that internal division and acrimony among the various bits of the sport will win that race.

 

I know you disagree, but I believe we have here a solution that caters for the big elite clubs, the smaller "big" clubs, the ambitious heartland clubs and the expansion clubs at the same time.

 

As you say, lack of will to change is a bad thing.

Edited by Ponterover
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To invest in what? For what return?? What you mean by so called investment is the pure covering of losses because there are not enough fans, sponsors, pro-players and TV money to support 14 clubs??

 

Every penny Koukash has invested in strengthening his SL team, has weakened the teams he took players off. How many new Salford fans will turn up to watch Rangi Chase, how many old Cas fans will pack it in now Castleford have sold their marquee player?

 

When any business gets in debt it needs sound principles more than ever?

I disagree that because Cas have sold Rangi Chase. their crowds will drop. I would argue their club has gotten used to hardship now, their crowds aren't necessarily higher than they ever have been because of Chase.

RE Your 3rd point-yes, but often our SL clubs have not just been in 'debt' and so introduced better 'principles', although you could argue that Wakefield have been in that position this off season. However, often SL clubs have waited until the real crisis. At that point you need external help. Many clubs have been at that point and still are.

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I agree that it may be harder for say a Featherstone than Bradford to attract attendances, maybe impossible to achieve similar on current averages. But just maybe Featherstone could charge more and fans prepared to pay more than Bradford plus they have some increase from away support of likes of Leeds, etc.   They may be able to exploit the commercial and sponsorship opportunities of being in SL better than a Bradford nowadays. 

 

Not sure we should operate Superleague based on so many "may's".

 

All Featherstone offer is the promise of a rich man. If they replaced Bradford the game would lose several thousand paying fans to a rich man's debt.

 

It's a business no brainer.

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Why not, if it works go for it.

Catalan aren't called Perpignan for a reason !!!

Probably so as not to be confused with the big RU team in the area who do sport the Perpignan name in their title.

Seriously, I do understand the Catalan regional appeal idea but I don't know if it's such a draw as you suggest. There used to be a major league baseball team in the los Angeles area who were called the California Angels but no body from Northern or Southern California followed them. Their market was and is the greater los Angeles conurbation. Today they have dropped the California tag and have Los Angeles in their name.

The Florida Marlins have the same problem. Only people from Miami watch them.

A little nearer to home the London tag has had little success for the Broncos. They had much more success when they were Fulham.

The Skolars might have more local appeal if they were the Tottenham Cockneys or some such.

Do you think any team in the Rhubarb triangle rebranded as Calder or even the Yorkshire Wanderers thousands of extra fans would flock to their games.

Depending on future political developments, Catalan as a name would be better off being reserved for a national team entering World Cups as Catalonia whilst the rest of France compered as France.

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Cas is about more than Rangi Chase.

 

And rugby is about more than Cas

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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I disagree that because Cas have sold Rangi Chase. their crowds will drop. I would argue their club has gotten used to hardship now.....

 

Castleford's crowds have dropped from 7,500 to 6,300 since 2009.

 

Castlefords worst crowd came last year .v.Fartown 3,222.

 

I call these figures a drop. Fans don't want to watch a selling club.

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Not sure we should operate Superleague based on so many "may's".

 

All Featherstone offer is the promise of a rich man. If they replaced Bradford the game would lose several thousand paying fans to a rich man's debt.

 

It's a business no brainer.

 

Meanwhile, back in the real world.....

 

Featherstone are not really likely to replace Bradford.

 

If it's London, there'll be a significant increase in average paying spectators.

 

If it's Widnes, Castleford, Wakefield there'll be either a neutral impact, or neligiable loss.

 

These are the clubs at risk.  Despite their problems, I'm confident Bradford will survive the chop, or at very worse bounce straight back up.

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Not sure we should operate Superleague based on so many "may's".

 

All Featherstone offer is the promise of a rich man. If they replaced Bradford the game would lose several thousand paying fans to a rich man's debt.

 

It's a business no brainer.

Featherstone need a few more years outside SL and I think they'll be ready then. They're heading in the right direction, and when they land (to metaphorically speak) I think they could well and be a real asset, better than a skint Bradford. This year, though, that Bradford offer more at present

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Castleford's crowds have dropped from 7,500 to 6,300 since 2009.

 

Castlefords worst crowd came last year .v.Fartown 3,222.

 

I call these figures a drop. Fans don't want to watch a selling club.

 

Or could it be that no one wants to watch a team that has no hope of winning anything under the current structure and as such is a Zombie team making up the numbers.  3x8 gives Cas fans something to cheer later in the season. 

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Meanwhile, back in the real world.....

 

Featherstone are not really likely to replace Bradford.

 

If it's London, there'll be a significant increase in average paying spectators.

 

If it's Widnes, Castleford, Wakefield there'll be either a neutral impact, or neligiable loss.

 

These are the clubs at risk.  Despite their problems, I'm confident Bradford will survive the chop, or at very worse bounce straight back up.

 

In the real world losing London will put up SL average crowds. Losing Widnes, Castleford and Wakefield as well will really put up average crowds to 9613 from 8473.

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Featherstone need a few more years outside SL and I think they'll be ready then. They're heading in the right direction, and when they land (to metaphorically speak) I think they could well and be a real asset, better than a skint Bradford. This year, though, that Bradford offer more at present

 

Aye, two more to be exact.

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Castleford's crowds have dropped from 7,500 to 6,300 since 2009.

 

Castlefords worst crowd came last year .v.Fartown 3,222.

 

I call these figures a drop. Fans don't want to watch a selling club.

 

Think it's more to do with the fact they're a losing club rather than a selling club, and without relegation there becomes nothing to play for. The result is a drop in crowds-as you've illustrated. Wigan sell all the time and their crowds are solid.

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Probably so as not to be confused with the big RU team in the area who do sport the Perpignan name in their title.

Seriously, I do understand the Catalan regional appeal idea but I don't know if it's such a draw as you suggest. There used to be a major league baseball team in the los Angeles area who were called the California Angels but no body from Northern or Southern California followed them. Their market was and is the greater los Angeles conurbation. Today they have dropped the California tag and have Los Angeles in their name.

The Florida Marlins have the same problem. Only people from Miami watch them.

A little nearer to home the London tag has had little success for the Broncos. They had much more success when they were Fulham.

The Skolars might have more local appeal if they were the Tottenham Cockneys or some such.

Do you think any team in the Rhubarb triangle rebranded as Calder or even the Yorkshire Wanderers thousands of extra fans would flock to their games.

Depending on future political developments, Catalan as a name would be better off being reserved for a national team entering World Cups as Catalonia whilst the rest of France compered as France.

 

Bad marketing is bad marketing regardless. London is a country within a country, marketing London is like trying to market Newcastle as Great Britain.

 

I can see the immediate desirre to be the 'London' sommerts, I don't see the advantage for the team other than the game gates to advertise itself with having a London team.

 

Its a paradox you want the name London but you don't.

 

Maybe we should be looking at,if we need the name London,  the North, South, East and West London Cockerknees, Watchrer,s Leavitouts and Watchyoulookingats.  

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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Or could it be that no one wants to watch a team that has no hope of winning anything under the current structure and as such is a Zombie team making up the numbers.  3x8 gives Cas fans something to cheer later in the season. 

 

Well this is the BIG question. Will dropping out of superleague because your not good enough and playing extra fixtures against the same losers as you, and four second tier clubs really get your fans cheering.

 

To assume more fans will turn up for games outside Superleague flies in the face of the figures??

 

Castleford dropped out of Superleague losing most of their games and came back winning most of their games. The crowds were 2,000 down for the winning side

Edited by The Parksider
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Slightly moronic comment.  Can't see anybody was arguing that. Are you L'Angelo in disguise?

 

Why is it moronic, could you please expand.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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Bit mean spirited that Mr. K??

 

You got it spectacularly wrong with Perpignan/Catalans. The idea of one SL club basing itself in a sizeable place but catering to a wider audience to get the maximum fans/sponsors/players etc is sound.

 

The "Catalans" area crosses into Spain where Les Catalans attracted an 18,000 crowd in Barcelona for their home tie with Warrington. Remember that?

 

OK the mountains are in the way, but not so at Wigan who can attract fans from a wide area. During Salford's poor performances anecdotal evidence is such that fans would get on the train in Manchester, get in cars in Oldham, and travel down the M6 from north Lancashire, Chorley, Preston, etc to support the Wigan club.

 

It doesn't matter what the club is called. Everton attract fans from all over North Wales, and that matters. They do not have to be called North Wales Crusaders.

 

If we want to attract the maximum number of fans, fans need maximum access to attractive clubs.

You are losing the plot here, Parky, my old sparring partner. The point being made Padge is that Catalans are named that to appeal to the greater catalan area rather than Perpignan itself. So, if all these people journey from all over Lancashire and beyond to watch a team named after a small town named Wigan, it suggests that the same thing would happen in Catalonia even if the team were named Perpignan Dragons

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What I find pathetic Lizzy is that we have a MONEY problem and we are trying to work out a STRUCTURAL solution.

 

The game and the clubs have a number of problems. Money is one major problem, but there are also a number of others that are just as important. Many, including the RFL and Clubs are focussing on structural changes and believing that a new League system will solve things- it wont and the same problems affecting the various areas of the game now, will still be there no matter what structural system you have in place. The various problems and issues affecting the game need to be included in any Structural reform. Just changing a Structural format down to 10 clubs or throwing all the money at 10 clubs will not make Rugby League a better sport or have more people attracted to it. There are a number of issues, some of which I have mentioned that need to be looked at before making any structural changes. Whether SL has 10 or 12 Clubs is unimportant compared to the solving or better handling of some issues in the game thats killing the game off. 

 

Giving 10 clubs 5 Million a year might make SL better but it still doesnt solve many other issues which are killing the game. Issues such as lack of Development Officers, BARLA v RFL, Pro and Amateur clubs fighting over use of youngsters, lack of development of the game not just in dvelopment areas, but in Heartland areas should not be ignored in any changes to the game. Should SL clubs get more Sky and RFL money to waste when that money could be better spent elsewhere in the game (Development Officers for example)? The Structural argument is making people miss what really needs sorting and quickly.

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Well this is the BIG question. Will dropping out of superleague because your not good enough and playing extra fixtures against the same losers as you, and four second tier clubs really get your fans cheering.

 

To assume more fans will turn up for games outside Superleague flies in the face of the figures??

 

If I was a Cas fan (shudder), I'd be much more interested if there was a possibility of seeing Michael Shenton lift a bit of silverware at the end of the season than I would knowing that there's pretty much nothing to play for from Febuary onwards.

 

Past performance under one arrangement is not an effective tool for predicting the future under an alternative arrangement.

 

I know plenty of Cas fans, in fact more than I do rovers fans.  I've asked them all (market research!!) They share this opinion, as does the Cas BOD, their CEO is on record as stating that 3x8 is their preferred option.

Edited by Ponterover
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Think it's more to do with the fact they're a losing club rather than a selling club, and without relegation there becomes nothing to play for. .

 

When Castleford started the 2006 season their crowds steadily dropped as the club failed to win and headed for relegation. At the end of the season the interest was less than at the start. There's no actual evidence that crowds are excited by their clubs losing all the time and facing relegation. RL World did a full study and relegation does not excite fans.

 

When Cas were no longer under threat of relegation their crowds did not drop.

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Why?

 

You can call a club what you like and for any number of reasons

 

There's no such place as wasps, Saracens, or battleships: for their own reasons

 

Grimsby town play in cleethorpes, Patrick thistle play in Maryhill for their own reasons

 

Catalan dragons aren't called perpignan for their own reasons

 

There used to be a rugby league team called unos dabs...no such place

 

Open your mind old cock. It's never too late

I've never met anybody who can lose the plot as well as you. old cock.

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If I was a Cas fan (shudder), I'd be much more interested if there was a possibility of seeing Michael Shenton lift a bit of silverware at the end of the season than I would knowing that there's pretty much nothing to play for from Febuary onwards.

 

Past performance under one arrangement is not an effective tool for predicting the future under an alternative arrangement.

 

I know plenty of Cas fans, in fact more than I do rovers fans.  I've asked them all (market research!!) They share this opinion, as does the Cas BOD, their CEO is on record as stating that 3x8 is their preferred option.

 

I think I'll pass on your market research. Cas are so heavily in debt according to Mr. Sadler the end to licensing and the 3x8 will relieve the pressure on the club. I am sure their board is thinking about money not silverware.

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