Halifax in trouble?

[Mumby Magic]

It doesn't come down to relegation, franchising, promotion, middles eights, full time, part time its about how to run your club accordingly. I worked at Batley for on a volunteer basis and they know what they are doing. There target is SL. Eventually. When the time is right. It could be 2020 or 2030 but the club has to have no negative financially when they go up. Clubs need to realise where they are within the game at this moment. Next year Hull KR, London and Bradford MAY have a chance of promotion. Others have a chance to grab more money to fund what should be a mid to long term plan. Many don't. I had no sympathy for my club when we had money troubles but to blame SL, promotion et al is almost unprofessional. Live within your means and build. I'd rather Bulls be Championship for 10 years than go bust (again) than be in SL.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

Its a case of bad management and not using the prize money from the top 4 finish in 2015 wisely.

 

I think Halifax, and Bradford to some degree banked on making the top 4 again and had no plan B.

Is part of bad management expecting your main sponsor to go bust like what has happened at Fax and other clubs or somebody who puts initially a large sum of money in, then for various reasons leave (Leigh, Halifax, Featherstone etc)? Yes all clubs make mistakes and bad management occurs. But sometimes unexpected things happen that put a club in a difficult position. The fact remains that there is NO money in the game and most clubs are in the same position as Fax- one step away from financial problems. The game cant continue like this and something needs to change. Nobody has any real answers, but are happy to say my Section of the game or Comp needs the money and dont care about the rest. No thought has been made for years on whats best for the game, just what is best for certain sections of the game. The real questions that for me RL Journos should be asking the games leaders is where is the game heading and how do we improve things for everybody, not just certain ones. The problem is Journos are happy to hear the spin, but not really challenge it and ask why does the game have such a problems and what is the plan to improve things. Easy to say a club is in trouble, but not to challenge the games leaders. That requires too much work and risk of upsetting people.

 

I dont know that Fax banked on a top 4 finish, as they decided to stay PT. One of the things that didnt help was the player recruitment was poor and didnt improve the squad. A couple of long term injuries to key players like Tyrer and Manning amongst others and then no real quality left Fax struggling. They got in a rut and it just went downhill. So crowds dropped off. Sponsors not paying up and the council wanting 40K for 15 games a year, has not helped. I know Fax are not in a great way, but know for a fact that they are not close to going in to administration at all. Yes they have to cut cloth due to various events over the past 12 months, but you hardly need to be a scientist to work that out. 

[Lounge Room Lizard]

The Football lot have never really likey Haliax being more a Rugby Town than a football one..The Golden Years of the 80s saw the Rugby get lots of exposure and people knew Halifax through the Building Society and Rugby Club. Halifax Town was/is the laughing stock of many. That never went down well with the Footballers who have been bust more times than even the Rugby somehow! The problem between the Football Club and Rugby probably increased when Nigel Wood sold Thrum Hall and then left after saying money from the sale would help develop the Shay. This obviously never happened and Nigel left- probably after paying most of the debts off as nobody really knows where the money from the sale of Thrum Hall went to! No money was ever spent on the Shay.

 

Obviously the Football Club and fans were not impressed. But then again the Football lot did not put any money in to the South Stand either- it was money used from the Football Grant. Then a game of silly beggers was played by both clubs- hiding keys, locking things up the other wanted, making sure the boiler was off and showers cold etc. Fax were still in SL and Sky changed The Shay to The New Shay. Again this annoyed the football lot, who felt they were being pushed out. Fax went bust eventually and the Football lot thought great and this was the start of the Football fans attack on Fax. The Words "Squatters", "Gypsies", "Freeloaders" started being banded about as the Footballers consider the Shay even now there home- even though they have actually never owned the Shay! Fax struggling and again just about escaping going bust in 2004 and the rise of better times for the Football lot saw them hurl all sorts of abuse at Fax and the fans. 

 

But then Halifax Town a couple of years later went bust and replaced by a brand new club. But still they saw Fax as the enemy and happy to keep on saying "Squatters" etc. The war between officials at the clubs didnt improve at all over this time and was made worse when the new clubs rent was a lot less than Fax because of the level they were playing at. The Council helped the Football Club a fair bit but didnt really do much to help the Rugby club so the envy on both the Rugby and Football increased to a situation where we are at today. The Council wanted to charge Fax over 40K a year (15 games plus office and Shop). The Football had worked itself up to conference level and payed less than half of what Fax were paying despite having around 30 games with a good 1/3 under floodlights. They had no shop but had a few tables they stored that they would be set up to sell stuff etc. Fax have felt this was grossly unfair and took it to an Ombudsmen this year. We then had the Tony Abbott story (He wanted to buy the shay) which further added oil to the fire and basically things got way out of hand with slanderous comments made and the war between the two clubs was at its worst. The Rugby club and Council are talking and looks like some common sense has prevailed. The Football club have turned down all offers of any help from the Rugby Club since the new club was setup. Malcolm Powell, who was involved in the running of the Shop tried to work something with the Football lot, so that they could use a corner of the Fax Shop to sell stuff, but they refused to listen. From what I understand the Football and Rugby dont talk to each other at all now. The mistrust and hatred between a large  number of Football fans and anything to do with the Rugby is well known as can be seen on the Football Forum. The Rugby Forum with the odd exception make no comment about the Football. SOme fans (Not many) support both. I cant see anytime soon where things will change as too much has gone on and the wounds are too deep. Worst thing Fax did was move down The Shay and lost control of things. Now they own nothing, are forced to pay OTT rent and have no real hope for the future, unless some money man comes in. A few fans still think Fax is a big club, but in reality they are a club struggling to survive like the rest.

[The Parksider]

It doesn't come down to relegation, franchising, promotion, middles eights, full time, part time its about how to run your club accordingly. I worked at Batley for on a volunteer basis and they know what they are doing. There target is SL. Eventually. When the time is right. It could be 2020 or 2030 but the club has to have no negative financially when they go up. Clubs need to realise where they are within the game at this moment. Next year Hull KR, London and Bradford MAY have a chance of promotion. Others have a chance to grab more money to fund what should be a mid to long term plan. Many don't. I had no sympathy for my club when we had money troubles but to blame SL, promotion et al is almost unprofessional. Live within your means and build. I'd rather Bulls be Championship for 10 years than go bust (again) than be in SL.

 

Nicholas said recently "Whether we could achieve Superleague and compete who knows.......the only thing holding us back is our crowds" He didn't say the target was SL he did say the crowds, which haven't built in many years, were a problem. 

 

The Bulls as you know averaged over 15,000 in Superleague, so it'd be a tragedy for that fan base to fade away year on year. I note some big crowds for Bradford City recently. It does come down to getting promotion for the Bulls who will never build anything whilst in the second tier, rather the reverse.

 

Outside the top four and prize money Halifax are at risk of crowd levels dropping, I don't yet know the average for 2016, for 2010 it was 2,345. Last year 2,135 but I fear there will be no "building" there either.

[sweaty craiq]

£40k for 15 games is dirt cheap.

[The Parksider]

Its a case of bad management and not using the prize money from the top 4 finish in 2015 wisely.

 

I think Halifax, and Bradford to some degree banked on making the top 4 again and had no plan B.

 

Would it have been wise to have spent it on professional players when the club was struggling financially? AFAIK Halifax turned to their plan B and used the prize money to pay their debts? Isn't that good management?

 

Bradford have put plan B into action and cut their cloth further isn't that good management as well?

 

If you want examples of bad management just look at how much "prize money" is handed to Championship clubs to try to make this system work - yes this is a "Halifax in trouble"  thread but before the ghouls start, the future for all Championship clubs may be a lot rosier if they get it back to being a semi-pro league.  

[The Parksider]

Seems to me, most people are either missing - or (understandably) trying to avoid the essential truth?

 

The issue is clearly a serious lack of money across the game, right?

 

I'd say that is more of a symptom than a cause! The REAL issue is far, far too few people are going to watch their team play. Far too few younsgsters and families on the terraces, where the fanbase at so many clubs is increasingly the older die-hards.

 

And it is a terrble, vicious circle. Fewer supporters = less income (gates, sponsorship, corporate) = worse squads & worse facilities = worse performance & worse spectator experience = fewer supporters...

 

The only way all but the upper echelons of SL can advance - or in some cases survive - is through the largesse of a dedicated and generous (or daft!) fan owner.  Leigh showed how it is done. But outside of the owner, the opportunities for these "other" income streams that some people seem to demand those clubs somehow "find" are extremely limited.

 

All the argument seems to be about how to divvy up a cake that is already far too small. Some who recognise the problem argue that it is up to clubs to go out and bake a bigger cake, but rarely have practical proposals for how to do it "that is for the club owners, not me". (And I have sod all ideas either).

 

Getting thousands more bums on seats, feet on terraces would transform the situation, from Salford to Sheffield to Swinton to South Wales.  And of course for the likes of Bradford. Absent that - and I have few ideas how it can be achieved, as Koukash and Davy have discovered - IMO the problem is only likely to get worse.

 

Come to Hunslet and see the age of the crowd there, fair play to them so many wear the replica jerseys. You say the "only way championship clubs can advance" is through a rich owner.

 

Well that is especially true with the current circumstances in which Leigh's advancement is down to very large sums being paid out by Mr. Beaumont. Having said that as was pointed out by Leyther Rob

that has been the case since 1996 when promoted clubs came with a Ted Richardson, a John Wilkinson, a Neil Hudgell, a Jack Fulton or a Steve O'Connor.

 

The mantra for the financial troubles of our Championship clubs has been "live within your means" and if you look at Batley they do just that. That seems to be the collective solution offered by many on here so what's wrong with that?

 

Of course the "means" in 1996 was 2,400 fans a game, by 2014 it was 1,095.  But to stay alive the simple solution is to downsize (that can be done right down into CC1, it's not a "league of death") and the ambition remains as it always has done to wait for a (VERY) rich man to come along. 

 

You talk about "Getting thousands more bums on seats, feet on terraces"  but the issue here is that the RFL have always wanted thousands more bums on seats, but we may forget that they want them on Superleague Terraces and Superleague seats, paying into the games flagship.

 

So Bulls went to sell season Tickets in Batley with RFL approval.

 

It was Championship clubs like Oldham, Sheffield, Featherstone and Workington who refused to play the game with the RFL and merge into Superleague and no doubt Batley, Dewsbury, Leigh and Keighley would have refused too had they been invited. A desperate Halifax opened talks to merge with Bradford IIRC

 

Should you look back at that now and declare a missed opportunity?

 

The championship has been no more than a reserve league for SL, clubs allowed in if their chairmen bring money, clubs with no rich owner randomly refused (Hunslet and Dewsury) then a blanket ban on entry even if you could show you were more viable than Broncos or Crusaders, now some money but only for the top four to act as fall guys for SL jeopardy.

 

Even when the RFL bring back straight P & R their eyes will not be on the championship clubs, their hope will be that Toulouse and Toronto will step on all their heads on their way to bringing new money into Superleague.

 

As long as Supeleague remains everything the championship will just be used to suit. It's not something that excites new fans, it's attraction is historical and a niche attraction for those deindling numbers  who still want a cheap, steady local day out for their RL fix.  

[Bleep1673]

No TV deal doesn't help the Championship clubs either.

[Spidey]

No TV deal doesn't help the Championship clubs either.

There is a deal so much as Sky own the rights. They're just not televising games

[ivans82]

the championship has never worked because of unequal funding . finish in the top4 get more money , spend it on improving the team . following season finish outside top4 less funding , club ends up in crisis , season after a least one club goes through the same scenario . its all short term game and no long term planning .

[sweaty craiq]

Halifax went long term planning. Took the 750k on offer, stayed part time and are now luvved. Probably used the money to pay off some loans etc which is how the vast majority of the Championship would use the money hence no real point in spreading the funding evenly. If you are going to spread it evenly there must be a caveat that you spend a minimum of £300k above central funding on the squad before you get the money.

[The Parksider]

Halifax went long term planning. Took the 750k on offer, stayed part time and are now luvved. Probably used the money to pay off some loans etc which is how the vast majority of the Championship would use the money hence no real point in spreading the funding evenly. If you are going to spread it evenly there must be a caveat that you spend a minimum of £300k above central funding on the squad before you get the money.

 

Great post Craiq!!

 

You highlight exactly why Mr. Lenegan and his chums are fuming.

 

SL money is given to Halifax to compete for Promotion and they spend it on paying debts!

 

No doubt Batley won't be going professional any time soon, and will find better things to do with the SL money than chase a dream, maybe some ground improvements.

 

Mr. Hughes at London can use his to reduce the burden on his family finances.

 

And Featherstone can use theirs to pay off some debt or avoid having to DR with Leeds.

 

and Bradford finished fifth, so they're downsizing.

 

So who is the next club to follow Leigh??

 

(Silence)

[LeytherRob]

Great post Craiq!!

You highlight exactly why Mr. Lenegan and his chums are fuming.

SL money is given to Halifax to compete for Promotion and they spend it on paying debts!

No doubt Batley won't be going professional any time soon, and will find better things to do with the SL money than chase a dream, maybe some ground improvements.

Mr. Hughes at London can use his to reduce the burden on his family finances.

And Featherstone can use theirs to pay off some debt or avoid having to DR with Leeds.

and Bradford finished fifth, so they're downsizing.

So who is the next club to follow Leigh??

(Silence)

So what if batley want to spend money on ground improvements? There's more than just an on field team to building a club up. Also who are Mr Leneghans chums who are apparently fuming now?

[The Parksider]

So what if batley want to spend money on ground improvements? There's more than just an on field team to building a club up. Also who are Mr Leneghans chums who are apparently fuming now?

 

I've set out why Mr. Lenegan and his fellow chairmen don't like the money going to championship clubs clearly enough.

 

If Batley need to be built up then make a case for them being in SL for that is what the money is for, and that is the point.

 

If you don't get it fine. We agree to disagree.....

[LeytherRob]

I've set out why Mr. Lenegan and his fellow chairmen don't like the money going to championship clubs clearly enough.

If Batley need to be built up then make a case for them being in SL for that is what the money is for, and that is the point.

If you don't get it fine. We agree to disagree.....

Why do clubs need to have immediate ambitions to be in superleague to justify improving their infrastructure?

You've set out your opinion on the matter but that doesn't make it fact. Show me a recent quote from another chairman agreeing with Leneghans recent comments?

[Angelic Cynic]

Halifax went long term planning. Took the 750k on offer, stayed part time and are now luvved. Probably used the money to pay off some loans etc which is how the vast majority of the Championship would use the money hence no real point in spreading the funding evenly. If you are going to spread it evenly there must be a caveat that you spend a minimum of £300k above central funding on the squad before you get the money.

 

  

 

Great post Craiq!!

 

You highlight exactly why Mr. Lenegan and his chums are fuming.

 

SL money is given to Halifax to compete for Promotion and they spend it on paying debts!

 

     It would help if people posted after checking the veracity of their statements.

 

     There is no suggestion,anywhere that Halifax 'paid debts'.

 

      There was a suggestion,fairly recently,that they sought,and probably paid for legal advice regarding their payments for the use of their stadium;now resolved without going through the courts.

 

      Their Supporters Trust did pay towards the starting and upkeep of their reserve side but this website did report on Halifax back in May and gave an update on how the money they received for last years playing results was actually spent

 

      http://www.totalrl.com/curious-case-halifax/

[The Parksider]

     It would help if people posted after checking the veracity of their statements.

 

     There is no suggestion,anywhere that Halifax 'paid debts'.

 

It would also help if "people" (I'm the much reviled "Parky" by the way) would kindly provide corrections if statements are wrong. do not worry I will not go into a long sulk and chase you about the board if you prove me to be wrong ......

 

This may not be a "fact" either (but the RFL are not good on publishing easy to look up facts) but as I understand it Mr. C. Halifax were paid £450.000 in prize money for their fourth place finish last year. I also understand it that the purpose of such money (maybe not enshrined in an RFL rule, maybe just an understanding) is to strengthen the team to provide cannon fodder (no sorry I have to correct my self there) erm provide "professional opposition" to compete with SL clubs for an SL place and thereby restore P & R and jeopardy and raise crowds accordingly. 

 

That they did not do this led me to believe, along with the League Weekly article stating they are in financial difficulty (which I call debt) that they probably used the money for that, and as it was stated they now want to cut players wages, that seemed to confirm matters.

[The Parksider]

Why do clubs need to have immediate ambitions to be in superleague to justify improving their infrastructure?

You've set out your opinion on the matter but that doesn't make it fact. Show me a recent quote from another chairman agreeing with Leneghans recent comments?

 

"recent quote"?

 

Your on the daft bandwagon of every RL chairman must be happy because the SL clubs voted 11 clubs for the system. 

 

SL Chairmen have been unhappy with the RFL since 1996 when they went off and opened their own offices and company and in particular the period January 2014 to date, I've shown this board every quote from the big argument set out by Sadler, the publshed article by Lenegan and supporting articles from Pearson and Hudgell, Hudgell published threats, all Koukashes stuff,  the threat of civil war, and Ken Davey's recent scathing attack.

 

I think I've done enough over the last two years and I aren't your servant, get off your lazy backside and look it up.

[LeytherRob]

"recent quote"?

Your on the daft bandwagon of every RL chairman must be happy because the SL clubs voted 11 clubs for the system.

SL Chairmen have been unhappy with the RFL since 1996 when they went off and opened their own offices and company and in particular the period January 2014 to date, I've shown this board every quote from the big argument set out by Sadler, the publshed article by Lenegan and supporting articles from Pearson and Hudgell, Hudgell published threats, all Koukashes stuff, the threat of civil war, and Ken Davey's recent scathing attack.

I think I've done enough over the last two years and I aren't your servant, get off your lazy backside and look it up.

It's usually the job of the person making the wild statements to back them up with proof. But as usual you have nothing.

Yes at differing times all those chairman have spoken out about the RFL. Except for different things at different times. You keep trying to lump them all into one group to fit the narrative in your head. Chairmen upset in 1996 is hardly an argument against a financial distribution introduced in 2015 is it? In truth the only person who has publicly taken the same stance on championship funding as Ian Lenegan is Jamie Peacock. Do you think Jamie still stands by his statement?

[sweaty craiq]

It would also help if "people" (I'm the much reviled "Parky" by the way) would kindly provide corrections if statements are wrong. do not worry I will not go into a long sulk and chase you about the board if you prove me to be wrong ......

 

This may not be a "fact" either (but the RFL are not good on publishing easy to look up facts) but as I understand it Mr. C. Halifax were paid £450.000 in prize money for their fourth place finish last year. I also understand it that the purpose of such money (maybe not enshrined in an RFL rule, maybe just an understanding) is to strengthen the team to provide cannon fodder (no sorry I have to correct my self there) erm provide "professional opposition" to compete with SL clubs for an SL place and thereby restore P & R and jeopardy and raise crowds accordingly. 

 

That they did not do this led me to believe, along with the League Weekly article stating they are in financial difficulty (which I call debt) that they probably used the money for that, and as it was stated they now want to cut players wages, that seemed to confirm matters.

Halifax won 750k for this year as it's the platings in the 8's that won the cash, Leigh got 450k