Full Strength Canada

[Pulga]

18 hours ago, The Parksider said:

1) The Toronto project has several significant problems with the travel distances, this was the major issue raised by most commentators, and it's true. It's not a "negative view". 

Which is largely overstated. If you aren't incompetent and can attempt to get a Visa more than a week in advance there is no problem. Yes, these guys have full time jobs, but SURELY they can have one 4 day trip to Canada sorted out.....

How does Super Rugby do it with Australian, NZ, South African, Japanese and South American teams involved? Once again, unless you are incompetent..... 

 

18 hours ago, The Parksider said:

2) The Toronto project has serious problems with the player recruitment as there are no Rugby League players up to the mark in Canada. Again completely true, not "negative"

This is not a problem at all. Maybe in your head. 

If they only have one Junior make the professional ranks in the next ten years then it's a success.

 

18 hours ago, The Parksider said:

3) The Toronto project has problems once it get's to an SL application with providing a lucrative TV deal to help make it worthwhile for SL chairmen to accept them. The chairmen want this, maybe they are "negative"

Toronto would need to bring 3.3m pound per year to equal the other club's share of the 200 million pound if it were directly divided in 12. It's not though and the number would be much, much less. 
To put this in perspective, the NRL sell $215m worth of licenced clothing PER YEAR. If the WP can grow their brand to even a fraction of an NRL club, they will easily make the money.
The WP's first home game has over 400,000 views and was geoblocked in England. They will ###### this in.

19 hours ago, The Parksider said:

4) The Toronto project has problems converting the £Millions of investment they allegedly have into benefiting the European game such that SL may favour their inclusion. Could they buy a franchise for tens of £Millions to unlock the door?

What are you even talking about? They will be there based on being a competitive team and bringing in money. Why would they waste their money on an existing franchise that is likely hemorrhaging money? Many of the existing franchises have had 120 years to sort themselves out but have apparently been run by a bunch of People like yourself. 

 

19 hours ago, The Parksider said:

5) The Toronto project will have problems creating excitement amongst SL fans in a parochial game. Clubs a distance away don't bring many fans or excite the locals. In short Leigh will be a bigger draw for Wigan than Toronto will be.

 We've seen in a short time in L1 that this is the opposite of what has happened in reality. Will it continue after the novelty has worn off? Maybe not. Keep squeezing that stone though, i'm sure it will bleed eventually. Go on to Google Trends and type in "Toronto Wolfpack" and compare it to "Leigh Centurions". You'll find that TWP has caught up awfully quick. 

19 hours ago, The Parksider said:

6) The Toronto project if it ever did mushroom in Canada into a multi club project will then have serious problems if it tries to muscle in on Superleague in this country. Imagine three Canadian clubs at the top of the championship full of English players looking to displace English clubs.

Boo Hoo. France will be knocking down the door too. If English clubs can't keep up then it's nobody's fault but their own.

You sound like a courier pigeon in the era of the internet. 

19 hours ago, The Parksider said:

7) The Toronto project has grown on on field success. The entry requirement for overseas clubs as regards Super league is by invitation only, as per Les Catalans. As much as they rip it up on the field, that won't matter in terms of gaining SL entry as it stands.

They'll be invited. I suspect they already have been. You're just hoping and praying it isn't the case.

[The Parksider]

5 hours ago, Pulga said:

Which is largely overstated. If you aren't incompetent and can attempt to get a Visa more than a week in advance

This is not a problem at all. Maybe in your head. 

If they only have one Junior make the professional ranks in the next ten years then it's a success.

Toronto would need to bring 3.3m pound per year to equal the other club's share of the 200 million pound if it were directly divided in 12. It's not though and the number would be much, much less. 

To put this in perspective, the NRL sell $215m worth of licenced clothing PER YEAR. If the WP can grow their brand to even a fraction of an NRL club, they will easily make the money.
 

What are you even talking about? They will be there based on being a competitive team and bringing in money. Why would they waste their money on an existing franchise . 

 We've seen in a short time in L1 that this is the opposite of what has happened in reality.

France will be knocking down the door too. If English clubs can't keep up then it's nobody's fault but their own.

Thanks for the opposite view. No need to have the childish digs at me, keep it entirely to the points raised.

1. Travelling - this wasn't the visa point as much as incurring additional costs on clubs. If Toronto will always pay the travelling bills fine that solves that Travelling also includes the lack of away fans at games.

2. Junior development is a problem as it's currently a pre-requisite of all clubs to develop their own players. That may be falling apart a bit, but the overseas quotas are still there. If Toronto are allowed to forget junior development then all the other clubs may as well not bother either. You need to note SL clubs currently require new entrants outside Britain to develop players. There is little chance M62 SL clubs will give way to overseas clubs who stock their teams with M62 talent.

You say it's "not a problem". It is a problem. A big one.

3. Toulouse were required to bring in a TV contract. If that can be replace simply by Toronto providing the money instead then maybe the SL clubs would go for that. SL shares the SKY contact, Toronto don't get a share but pay money into the pool if there's no Canada TV contract.

4. What I am talking about is how new overseas clubs have to increase the wealth of SL if they want to enter. It's no good them being wealthy themselves if the European SL clubs see nothing of this money.

5. Crusaders, London and Catalans bring few away fans to SL grounds and many SL fans don't bother with these fixtures. These clubs outside the M62 depress crowds at a significant cost. Attendances are very very important - the whole structure of the game was changed on this issue.

6 & 7. Nobody outside Britain can get into super league unless Superleague authorises this through invitation. This is a major problem for Toronto and any other north american club.

Again thanks for having a stab at the points raised, but the bottom line is that an influx of Canadian clubs into Superleague will pretty much unbalance and damage the British game. Canada would be irresistible if it offered a new player pool, more money for SL clubs and eventually International competition

But your post collapses on the idea "If they only have one Junior make the professional ranks in the next ten years then it's a success".

If Les Catalans only had one french player they would not be in Superleague now.

Having a Canadian club in CC1 has been a real novelty that has stirred people up and is great fun, but eventually when Toronto are knocking on the door of  SL their entry has to be dependant on what they can bring to the game??.

An English team in Canadian  jerseys will not be enough. Why do you or anyone else think it will be??

[The Parksider]

21 hours ago, Kayakman said:

I'm not dismissing what you are saying Parksider....no one says that there are not problems..some of them hard to overcome.  You obviously have spent alot of time on this and thought out some things.

But you've also got to admit that there are also positives and you seem to focus on the difficulties rather than the good things.  Some times when something good and exciting happens you just have to go with it and watch it grow. 

I've just dealt with a rather long post dismissing all the problems, worst of all giving us the idea that developing Canadian players is unnecessary to the progress of Toronto and I assume to the progress of other Canadian and even United States teams who may follow. 

Do you really think Toronto or anyone else will get away with buying in English teams once in Superleague? The euphoria over Toronto and the aggressive rejection of anyone who doesn't "get excited" has stifled the debate somewhat, but beyond the character assassinations that supposedly pass for debate we may be getting somewhere.

I'm sorry that all my enthusiasm for expansion internationally was exhausted over the entry of Les Catalans in 2006. Ten years later they do produce French professionals, but "succeed" largely on an imported team, to the disappointment of many in the game. Their inability to provide an adequate international team has been an abject failure and as a drawcard on the fixture list of SL clubs they often draw their English counterparts their lowest crowds.

So what is exactly new about Toronto? The Paralellels with Les Catalans are very close, so close that if you want to see where Toronto are heading look at the ground the French clubs trod. Look at the disappointments Les Catalans brought to SL and look at Toulouse who are openly admitting the door to SL is closed on them.

That is where Toronto are heading, into a queue with Toulouse.

They will need more than an English team in Canadian jerseys to open that door.

[The Parksider]

7 hours ago, hunslet ramone said:

 Parksider can't run on the Hunslet forum on here never mind your pack as he, a so-called Hunslet fan  Bet Parksider don't even go to Hunslet's home games so he has no chance of running anywhere near you. 

Got any comments on the actual debate as regards Toronto?

[Kayakman]

Parksider I've read what you said and I want to wish you all the best.  You keep making references to the French teams etc.

But Toronto is not Toulouse and Canada is not France (Or England for that matter)!

Watch the crowd today at the game and say we are are not on the right track then?

Can't you cut us any sort of break over here?  In your mind do we have no chance of succeeding?

Turn from the darkside Parksider...look to the light as the Sun rises in the east...Toronto is rising...move into the light Parksider and jump on board: admit it, Toronto Wolfpack is here to stay!  Secretly, in your heart of hearts, we all know you yearn to become a member of the Pack!

It appears you were kicked out of your old pack...you are welcome to join us on one condition...you have to change your attitude and drop the negativism...only positive thoughts.

Turn that frown upside down!

[The Parksider]

10 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Parksider I've read what you said and I want to wish you all the best.  You keep making references to the French teams etc.

But Toronto is not Toulouse and Canada is not France 

Watch the crowd today at the game and say we are are not on the right track then?

Can't you cut us any sort of break over here?  In your mind do we have no chance of succeeding?

Toronto and Toulouse are both overseas pro-RL clubs hankering after admission to Superleague. Why do you believe Toronto would get favouritism over Toulouse? Make me a case why Toronto would be a better bet for inclusion than Toulouse??

The crowd today is not the point, I have listed many great crowds that new clubs who are now gone or are championship fixtures pulled in in their opening games and seasons. Your crowd will fill the coffers of your directors who are already very rich. Few will come over here and fill the coffers of English SL clubs.

I can't "cut you a break"? A break in what?? Having a realistic discussion about Rugby League??

Of course you have a chance of succeeding, but it all depends on how you define success. If it is being a successful Championship club you will certainly succeed by this time next year. Is that enough for you?

If you start a junior game and that grows and grows along with grid iron and RU players turning to League (an ambition your directors have stated) you will have your success and we will all rejoice in it the world over. You'll get Superleague.

If you get Canadian TV interested to the point of $$Millions you will again have your success and Superleague may beckon you to be a part of it.

You have the chance of succeeding in the joint aims of both the European game and the Canadian game to get Rugby league to grow it's player pool and TV revenues.

But with respect I believe Toronto should be cut no slack at all on the idea they can just march into Super league with an all English team and nothing else.

[Kayakman]

Just now, The Parksider said:

TBut with respect I believe Toronto should be cut no slack at all on the idea they can just march into Super league with an all English team and nothing else.

I've tried with you Parksider...I really have.

I know eventually you will come on board!  Eventually you will see the light.

All the best and only good thoughts but I can't agree with you...sometimes in life its just not all about the money.

You've got to turn that frown upside down Parksider.

[CanaBull]

To answer your points.

1. Regardless of concerns, they were accepted, you need to accept them too and move on.
2. Perez favours a top down approach to build brand awareness.  It’s not a ‘serious problem’ it’s a start point with (I would hope) milestones in their sustainability plan which, of course, we don’t know anything about until something official is put out.  This is the same for any new market, but I suppose it depends on whether your glass is half full or not.  This is my main concern for the future.
3. This is speculation until something official materialises.
4. I don’t know, how much further speculation will give you a satisfactory answer? See #3.
5. So what?  If there is a commensurate value add what does it matter? How could you possibly know what the state of Toronto’s support will be if they make it to SL?  Many people have Toronto as their second side in the UK so it’s not beyond imagination for them to go to games should they wish; we simply do not know until that day comes.  See #3 & #4.  Not having massive throngs of travelling away fans doesn’t hurt sports on this side of the pond though and there won’t be many away fans coming to Toronto either, but I suppose that’s different.
6.  Again, all speculative and based on unlikely assumptions too.  No hard facts to go off, see #3, #4 & #5.
7. Agreed.  Getting out of the Championship won’t be as easy as some people seem to think either.  When and if that happens, we can start entertaining notions about what the real Super League implications will be.

It is rather telling that you ask about allaying your fears; I doubt that I, or anyone else for that matter, ever will be able to as you don’t give us a threshold beyond which that will happen. I highly doubt it will be based on these 7 points only; like teeth in a shark jaw I suspect that there will be a whole new set of hypotheticals just waiting to take their place and have a bite.

You are obviously a smart man, have keen insight for picking through posts and a knack for putting forward questions that no-one could ever have answers to, demanding a level of specificity that is impossible to satisfy with the information available.  You want definite answers to hypothetical situations which could be years away and it’s obvious now why you don’t see your negativity.  Toronto will never be up to scratch in your eyes, there will always be something.

Just because you don’t have the answers you’re looking for doesn’t necessarily mean your concerns are well founded, or they could be right on the money too, we just don’t know.  I have balls, just not crystal ones and at the end of the day none of this is discussion, it’s idle speculation, and to satisfy your admitted personal fears at that.

For the record, based on my own experiences over here I share some of your concerns, but in the absence of any further information, constantly banging on about them simply becomes demoralising and counter-productive to all concerned.  Why continue going around in frustrated, negative circles which are highly unlikely to be satisfied in the short term?  Let them get the first season under their belt and we will all see what transpires and go from there.

Better information will come to light as the season progresses but these same points have been brought up over and over since Toronto came on the scene; no-one could answer them then and they are just as impossible to answer now, so in the meantime we might as well talk Toronto up instead and create some good vibes for the marketers in the US & Canada to pick up on.  The bigger the splash, the longer and further the ripples will go.

I think we can all agree on that.

[The Parksider]

39 minutes ago, CanaBull said:

For the record, based on my own experiences over here I share some of your concerns, constantly banging on about them simply becomes demoralising and counter-productive to all concerned.  

Better information will come to light as the season progresses but these same points have been brought up over and over since Toronto came on the scene.

It's not the case that the points I raised have been brought up over and over since Toronto appeared.

They may, when they have been brought up, been shouted down and ignored a good number of times. Insults aplenty may have been hurled to avoid answering them.

It's only this last few days that begrudgingly a couple of people have finally been decent enough to at least recognise the hurdles, and start to discuss them

What you will find if you have a proper look and a fair mind is that all the banging on has come from those who are quite sure Toronto are going to march all the way into SL in double quick time, after which more North american clubs will follow, and this expansion will save the game.

The idea talking about these things is "demoralising and counter productive" has no fair basis. This is a discussion forum populated by a small number of fans and anything discussed will have no bearing on Toronto's success or failure whatsoever. This nonsense almost sets me up to be blamed if they did fail.

You say I want answers to questions that can't be given. All I'd like is some sort of polite acknowledgement there are big hurdles to over come, and a chat about how they may be overcome rather than be browbeaten into turning a "non-existent frown upside down" I want this mob to succeed and want to discuss how they may go about that. Not be told it's already a success so go away.

[Davo5]

Best post on here for a long time Canabull,but your talking to a brick wall when it comes to everyone's favourite poster !

[Big Picture]

On 5/19/2017 at 3:02 AM, The Parksider said:

Without doubt you can only define things by two extremes.

Without doubt you put people in the "positive" and "negative" camp when neither concept has any relation to the facts of the matter.

Doing this enables the "positives" to lord it over the "negatives", doing this enables the positives to shut down discussion because positive people are somehow better than negative people, who should go away.

1) The Toronto project has several significant problems with the travel distances, this was the major issue raised by most commentators, and it's true. It's not a "negative view". 

2) The Toronto project has serious problems with the player recruitment as there are no Rugby League players up to the mark in Canada. Again completely true, not "negative"

3) The Toronto project has problems once it get's to an SL application with providing a lucrative TV deal to help make it worthwhile for SL chairmen to accept them. The chairmen want this, maybe they are "negative"

4) The Toronto project has problems converting the £Millions of investment they allegedly have into benefiting the European game such that SL may favour their inclusion. Could they buy a franchise for tens of £Millions to unlock the door?

5) The Toronto project will have problems creating excitement amongst SL fans in a parochial game. Clubs a distance away don't bring many fans or excite the locals. In short Leigh will be a bigger draw for Wigan than Toronto will be.

6) The Toronto project if it ever did mushroom in Canada into a multi club project will then have serious problems if it tries to muscle in on Superleague in this country. Imagine three Canadian clubs at the top of the championship full of English players looking to displace English clubs.

7) The Toronto project has grown on on field success. The entry requirement for overseas clubs as regards Super league is by invitation only, as per Les Catalans. As much as they rip it up on the field, that won't matter in terms of gaining SL entry as it stands.

Interestingly the most "positive" thing said on here has been the idea that Toronto's acceptance into CC1 is "proof positive" of Super league having already approved them a place. 

This is not debate, it's "positivity" at it's most extreme and in a sentence it glibly wipes out the seven worries that I set out above. Care to allay my worries over the Toronto project in a sensible discussion for me??

What "SL application" are you on about there?  If they get into the middle 8s and either finish in the top 3 or win the "Million Pound Game", then they're in SL, simple as that.  There are no more applications now.

[The Parksider]

4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

What "SL application" are you on about there?  If they get into the middle 8s and either finish in the top 3 or win the "Million Pound Game", then they're in SL, simple as that.  There are no more applications now.

AFAIK Overseas teams still only get in through invitation. That Toulouse are not carping on about winning the qualifiers appears to be a clue....

 

[The Parksider]

32 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Best post on here for a long time Canabull,but your talking to a brick wall when it comes to everyone's favourite poster !

The brick wall has been trying to discuss how Toronto will be able to progress, it's built by people like you who do not seem capable of rational discussion, only capable of trying to curry favour with other detractors.

Try to be a real big man and actually discuss and debate?

[The Daddy]

On Wed May 17 2017 at 6:02 PM, Ash Hope said:

PLUG ALERT. Some of these questions will be answered in next magazine. I spoke to head of Canadian rugby league Paul O'Keefe. I'll put some of it on Total RL when the mag comes out. But the full piece is very enlightening.

When is that issue out? 

[Davo5]

4 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

The brick wall has been trying to discuss how Toronto will be able to progress, it's built by people like you who do not seem capable of rational discussion, only capable of trying to curry favour with other detractors.

Try to be a real big man and actually discuss and debate?

Haha but you don't discuss/debate,you just keep throwing up the same old negative only personal thoughts that turn every thread that Canadian Rugby League is mentioned into a tedious merry go round.

As for being a big man,it's a forum ffs,grow up.

[Ash Hope]

17 minutes ago, The Daddy said:

When is that issue out? 

Friday 26th May.

Also got a lot of French content in there too. Theo Fages, Remi Casty, Sylvain Houles, Kevin Larroyer and a look back at PSG with some of their former players. Some very interesting tales from across the Channel.

[Ash Hope]

Interestingly, one of the things to come of the piece I did was that the best that could happen for Canadian Rugby League is to spread the game further than Toronto. Some of the ways they intend to do that are blockbuster honestly.

[Copa]

Dear god I don't wanna keep reading certain posts.

I gotta work out my settings or I'll flee the forum.

[B rad]

6 hours ago, Copa said:

Dear god I don't wanna keep reading certain posts.

I gotta work out my settings or I'll flee the forum.

Its like trying not to watch a car accident you know is about to happen isn't it.

[dkw]

7 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Haha but you don't discuss/debate,you just keep throwing up the same old negative only personal thoughts that turn every thread that Canadian Rugby League is mentioned into a tedious merry go round.

As for being a big man,it's a forum ffs,grow up.

Ignore function is a necessity now, the only way this forum is bearable is to put the imbecile on ignore. Ruins every thread.

[dkw]

9 hours ago, CanaBull said:

To answer your points.

1. Regardless of concerns, they were accepted, you need to accept them too and move on.
2. Perez favours a top down approach to build brand awareness.  It’s not a ‘serious problem’ it’s a start point with (I would hope) milestones in their sustainability plan which, of course, we don’t know anything about until something official is put out.  This is the same for any new market, but I suppose it depends on whether your glass is half full or not.  This is my main concern for the future.
3. This is speculation until something official materialises.
4. I don’t know, how much further speculation will give you a satisfactory answer? See #3.
5. So what?  If there is a commensurate value add what does it matter? How could you possibly know what the state of Toronto’s support will be if they make it to SL?  Many people have Toronto as their second side in the UK so it’s not beyond imagination for them to go to games should they wish; we simply do not know until that day comes.  See #3 & #4.  Not having massive throngs of travelling away fans doesn’t hurt sports on this side of the pond though and there won’t be many away fans coming to Toronto either, but I suppose that’s different.
6.  Again, all speculative and based on unlikely assumptions too.  No hard facts to go off, see #3, #4 & #5.
7. Agreed.  Getting out of the Championship won’t be as easy as some people seem to think either.  When and if that happens, we can start entertaining notions about what the real Super League implications will be.

It is rather telling that you ask about allaying your fears; I doubt that I, or anyone else for that matter, ever will be able to as you don’t give us a threshold beyond which that will happen. I highly doubt it will be based on these 7 points only; like teeth in a shark jaw I suspect that there will be a whole new set of hypotheticals just waiting to take their place and have a bite.

You are obviously a smart man, have keen insight for picking through posts and a knack for putting forward questions that no-one could ever have answers to, demanding a level of specificity that is impossible to satisfy with the information available.  You want definite answers to hypothetical situations which could be years away and it’s obvious now why you don’t see your negativity.  Toronto will never be up to scratch in your eyes, there will always be something.

Just because you don’t have the answers you’re looking for doesn’t necessarily mean your concerns are well founded, or they could be right on the money too, we just don’t know.  I have balls, just not crystal ones and at the end of the day none of this is discussion, it’s idle speculation, and to satisfy your admitted personal fears at that.

For the record, based on my own experiences over here I share some of your concerns, but in the absence of any further information, constantly banging on about them simply becomes demoralising and counter-productive to all concerned.  Why continue going around in frustrated, negative circles which are highly unlikely to be satisfied in the short term?  Let them get the first season under their belt and we will all see what transpires and go from there.

Better information will come to light as the season progresses but these same points have been brought up over and over since Toronto came on the scene; no-one could answer them then and they are just as impossible to answer now, so in the meantime we might as well talk Toronto up instead and create some good vibes for the marketers in the US & Canada to pick up on.  The bigger the splash, the longer and further the ripples will go.

I think we can all agree on that.

Great post, every point is bang on. The desperation of some to see this fail is nauseating at times, but unfortunately some just can't handle positivity and progress.

[hunslet ramone]

16 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Got any comments on the actual debate as regards Toronto?

Answer my question Parksider, never mind the debate, you never post on the Hunslet forum, for some strange reason, as a Hunslet fan? I thought you might, you do on everything else not regarding your team? or shall we start to call you Trollsider more fitting, it seems you just like to argue against everyone on here. Please could you change your name you are an embarrassment to my club. 

[hunslet ramone]

13 hours ago, Kayakman said:

I've tried with you Parksider...I really have.

I know eventually you will come on board!  Eventually you will see the light.

All the best and only good thoughts but I can't agree with you...sometimes in life its just not all about the money.

You've got to turn that frown upside down Parksider.

You can't reason with this guy Kayakman , he won't come on board, and to be honest would you really like him to come on board. I don't want him on board at Hunslet as he doesn't represent my club as is he is too negative in everything he says. Looking forward to coming over to Canada in June without him. We are taking the biggest support from this league as the Canada airline has told us, bet that pizzis him off.

[CanaBull]

Really looking forward to watching Hunslet again.  Never thought I'd be watching them again in Toronto. Might be a tough game, but the welcome will be a warm one.