How should expansion be done?

[iffleyox]

1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

Playing on Iffley Road was fantastic.  That venue was a huge asset in itself and gives great credibility.   I actually agree with everything you write (I used to live just off Iffley Road on Charles Street).

The move to Abingdon looked like the death of the club.  Competing became difficult. 

I was on the corner of Iffley Road and Magdalen Road - we probably met. I probably owe you a pint...

[JM2010]

Most replies on here seem to be concentrating on the success/failure of professional expansion.

Would keeping the existing teams and maybe even losing a couple if necessary and focusing on increasing amateur/junior playing numbers in the heartlands and surrounding areas and also in places such as London and the NE be a good way of expanding the game?

[Tongs ya bas]

9 minutes ago, ColT said:

No offence, I'm sure you're a clued up bloke but I'd back the collective wisdom of those three who comprised the Oxford board over your blueprint for success (whatever it was).

The GCSE results are upon us. You must be confident of top grade in obnoxiousness

[ColT]

3 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Most replies on here seem to be concentrating on the success/failure of professional expansion.

Would keeping the existing teams and maybe even losing a couple if necessary and focusing on increasing amateur/junior playing numbers in the heartlands and surrounding areas and also in places such as London and the NE be a good way of expanding the game?

Yes...

...and no.

Its difficult to think of a new amateur RL club (less than 20 years old) that isn't based out of a RU club, largely or exclusively using RU players to fulfil fixtures. It's moot whether this is deemed progress or not.

[ColT]

2 minutes ago, Tongs ya bas said:

The GCSE results are upon us. You must be confident of top grade in obnoxiousness

Former CEO of St Helens or bloke on internet called Bob. 

[iffleyox]

5 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Most replies on here seem to be concentrating on the success/failure of professional expansion.

Would keeping the existing teams and maybe even losing a couple if necessary and focusing on increasing amateur/junior playing numbers in the heartlands and surrounding areas and also in places such as London and the NE be a good way of expanding the game?

I *think* - and this is where I'm netting out now, so it's just a thought - that the RFL could be really brave and withdraw all funding to the clubs below the Championship (and look at cutting funding there too) and use the money for regional development officers and a nationwide schools programme. Any club that can't survive on a combination of gate receipts, events, and a sugar daddy should join the amateur leagues, heartlands or not. No expansion club should be admitted to the leagues that isn't self-supporting from the off. RFL money needs to be focused brutally on the grass-roots across England, not propping up failing "professional" set ups that can't get a grip of their own accounts or survive without handouts. 

There are all sorts of holes in the above, I can see several myself, but in my militant disillusion with League 1 and the RFL administration I think it's time to be brave. I'll offer it as a strawman to be shot down. If it was me, I'd spend the money on pretty well anything other than the clubs.

[JM2010]

9 minutes ago, ColT said:

Yes...

...and no.

Its difficult to think of a new amateur RL club (less than 20 years old) that isn't based out of a RU club, largely or exclusively using RU players to fulfil fixtures. It's moot whether this is deemed progress or not.

That is an option to start with but if these clubs focus on building a strong junior base then maybe that could change.

There is plenty of scope to increase the amount of teams in the NW, Yorkshire, Cumbria and Hull and expand outwards from there

[Tongs ya bas]

28 minutes ago, ColT said:

Former CEO of St Helens or bloke on internet called Bob. 

Is that some kind of coded message?

Does this mean the missiles have been launched?

[Oxford]

Despite a few little detours this is an excellent thread.

Has anyone from the RL media interviewed the Oxford board for their input and reasons for failure?

To have so much in their favour and still come up short needs a bit of investigation, rather than not just saying didn't have enough bums on seats.

The Bad Tempered Ladybird is annoying just like in the book!

[OriginalMrC]

I don't know very much about Oxford RL but alot of people here saying Iffley Road was a perfect venue. It was indeed a lovely venue but I expect very expensive. Surely hard to make a club viable when paying a fortune in rent. 

[Ivarr the Boneless]

The club was set up with a realistic break even gate (3 - 400 from memory, it was quote in a Total RL article at the time.) The rent probably wasn't the biggest issue with Iffley Road. I'd say it was the fact Oxford were asked to go on the road for substantial periods in both seasons two and three to permit pitch renovations.

This didn't assist in supporter retention, around a quarter of home games each season  were being played at locations such as Henley, Hemel and Cheltenham.

As gates declined the rent probably did become an issue tbh.

[ojx]

Interesting, so League One used to be a league where these teams could have short but competitive seasons based on local part-time players. Then it was changed to a full on competitive division featuring established clubs and now the multi-millionaire Wolfpack. Hence they lose nearly all their games, depressing interest.

Looks as though the RFL should have stuck to their 2013 plan:

Maybe four divisions of 10 is the way to go, so every team can find their level.

[FearNothing]

1 hour ago, Ivarr the Boneless said:

This didn't assist in supporter retention, around a quarter of home games each season  were being played at locations such as Henley, Hemel and Cheltenham.

Yeah, same happened to us at The Racecourse, 2 years running we had to play "home" games elsewhere due to pitch re-work, our support fell off drastically in those periods and has never recovered... 

[FearNothing]

18 minutes ago, ojx said:

Maybe four divisions of 10 is the way to go, so every team can find their level.

I did suggest on page 2 that get 4  more teams and split L1 into 2 divisions of 10 teams, called  L1 and L2

[sweaty craiq]

One of the biggest challenges facing our great sport today is social media, the negative effects of it that is. We have a fan base, well they call themselves fans, that a significant vocal proportion of has a chip on both shoulders and about as much entrepreneurial flair as Arthur Scargill. Everything is a negative, and any rich owner who wants to pump his/her hard earned into an unfashionable club to make them a success is treated with disdain at best, and is bombarded with SM abuse at every opportunity by folk who have never created a bean of wealth in their lifetime. Look at the poop Koukash took for example - how big an impact has that on Salfords poor crowds??

You don't get many chances to make a sport/club a success, and we seem to do our best to either fast track no hopers or strangle favourites. Catalans, Toronto and Toulouse are favourites, Newcastle could be - they need to be at the top table but not at the expense of The HKR, Leigh, Widnes, Wakefield, Cas, Bradfords of this world, all clubs who can pull a crowd and should not be in the mix with the Whitehavens, Workingons, Batleys etc of this sport who couldn't pull a decent gate with free entry.

[ojx]

2 hours ago, FearNothing said:

I did suggest on page 2 that get 4  more teams and split L1 into 2 divisions of 10 teams, called  L1 and L2

Just add Manchester, Montreal, New York and Avignon, then could have two divisions of 10.

Play home and away, then:

• League 1 Super 8s - top 8 of L1
• Middle 4s - bottom 2 of L1, top 2 from L2, (played home and away)
• League Shield - Bottom 8 of L2

Just another crazy, idea.

[FearNothing]

8 hours ago, ojx said:

Just add Manchester, Montreal, New York and Avignon, then could have two divisions of 10.

Play home and away, then:

• League 1 Super 8s - top 8 of L1
• Middle 4s - bottom 2 of L1, top 2 from L2, (played home and away)
• League Shield - Bottom 8 of L2

Just another crazy, idea.

or, Nottingham, Northampton, Bristol along with Manchester Rangers, all to go with the bottom 6 currently in L1, to make a competitive L2 and hopefully grow. More north american and french could then come in at a suitable level easier in future...

more crazy ideas

[Bob8]

On 23/8/2017 at 5:14 PM, scotchy1 said:

Its hard to objectively define a gimmick. As i've said, what i may see as a gimmick, others may find engaging. 

But i get what you are saying, sometimes RL sees good intentions dismissed as gimmicks because of a lack of real commitment to an actual top class matchday experience, sometimes framing chubby amateur dancers and an x factor failure as match-day entertainment doesnt really create the experience they are going for. 

But the things ive suggested re:media neednt be expensive, some are free, some would even be a revenue stream rather than cost. 

For match-day experience Toronto have hit gold with presenting each game as a mini craft-beer festival, i know Wakefield are dipping their toes in that water and that should be copied universally in the game. Next step is scrapping the crappy burger vans  and getting real proper gourmet street food vans in. 

The local music scenes in the north are in relatively good health, surely there are some decent local bands who would kill for the chance to play in front of 10k people. 

All of a sudden im not paying x amount to go stand on a cold terrace and watch 80mins of rugby, im going to spend maybe 3-4 hours at a craft beer festival, with live music and street-food and a game of rugby. If the game is good, brilliant, but even if we get thrashed, all ill remember the next morning is I had a fantastic time at the rugby. 

Getting back to defining a gimick, there are three things that could be gimicks:

- Cheerleaders
- Having ball boys give out liquorice to the crowd
- Having an X-factor contestant sing a song

None of these are good reasons to attend a match, and can detract from the overall event. 

But, it depends what the event is for. 

If your intention is to provide a rugby league match as a very glamourous occasion in a place where glamour is lacking, and really impress an adience, cheerleaders can be part of that.

If you want to engage your audience and create a friendly ambience in Denmark, having the ball boys give out liquorice to the crowd is very effective.

If you are a community event, where you will promote all local sports an cultural activities, having the lcoal X-factor contestant on is absolutely consistant and adds to the occasion.

In the past London Broncos have had cheerleaders but no glamour, and X-factor contestants without promotion of local culture.  The result was a gimmick.  But is was the crassness that was the problem, rather than the actual things theselves, I would argue, that made them gimmicks.

[Captain Survival]

I thought I would add that although the beer gardens, the cheerleaders, the hot dog gun, etc all add to the novelty of the event - fans are primarily attending for the core activity of the game itself.  But.  It really helps a fan attending knowing that they are going to have an experience, not just walk in and out of an 80 minute match.  So all the other stuff is viewed as value added, and should the game itself fall flat they know they still will have a good time.

A lot of professional sporting activities in North America are organized around this concept.  The pinnacle is what is known as "tailgating/tailgating parties" at NFL (National Football League) games in the USA.

Effectively, TWP management brought the tailgating concept into the stadium via the beer garden, food kiosks and band, as the Lamport venue externally does not have the room to facilitate an NFL style tailgating experience.

TWP is also assisted by the downtown west location of the stadium.  Getting to it and passing through multiple streestside shopping/eating districts has value in itself.

Another important aspect is social media, as someone above rightly pointed out.  TWP have been very strong in this area and merchandising.  They hit a home run on this.

Finally, tv exposure.  It and newsprint really have made a difference. I think another win here.

Some aspects of the above I think established clubs can mimic but others aspects would be hard to replicate as so many of the clubs are in small centers, not big cities.  But I think many of the "speculated" entries could use the TWP formula verbatim and reap immediate rewards. 

[Scubby]

16 minutes ago, Captain Survival said:

I thought I would add that although the beer gardens, the cheerleaders, the hot dog gun, etc all add to the novelty of the event - fans are primarily attending for the core activity of the game itself.  But.  It really helps that a fan attending knows that they are going to have an experience, not just walk in and out of an 80 minute match.  So all the other stuff is viewed as value added, and should the game itself fall flat they know they still will have a good time.

A lot of professional sporting activities in North America are organized around this concept.  The pinnacle is what is known as "tailgating/tailgating parties" at NFL (National Football League) games in the USA.

Effectively, TWP management brought the tailgating concept into the stadium via the beer garden and band, as the Lamport venue externally does not have the room to facilitate an NFL style tailgating experience.

TWP is also assisted by the downtown west location of the stadium.  Getting to it and passing through multiple streestside shopping/eating districts has value in itself.

Another important aspect is social media, as someone above rightly pointed out.  TWP have been very strong in this area and merchandising.  They hit a home run on this.

Finally, tv exposure.  It and newsprint really have made a difference. I think another win here.

Some aspects of the above I think established clubs can mimic but others aspects would be hard to replicate as so many of the clubs are in small centers, not big cities.  But I think many of the "speculated" entries could use the TWP formula verbatim and reap immediate rewards. 

Great post CS

[Gerrumonside ref]

I think if we're serious about attracting new fans in new areas of the country to follow rugby league then we have to raise the profile of the sport on a national level.

To me this simply means ensuring that the maximum amount of people are exposed to the sport and its biggest competition.

I think we have stood still in thinking that as long as the Challenge Cup final is on free-to-air then that is all that is required - as a result we have been overtaken by other sporting events.

We need to get as many people as possible watching the flagship competition (Super League) on live tv as is commercially possible.  

The Super League Grand Final should be shown at least simulcast free to air.