The Facts

[HomeOfTheTubularBandage]

1 hour ago, roughyed34 said:

I agree that is the way HOTTB, but from some posters previously ,some of the figures have been pie in the sky,and it is all talk because there is no clear plan at all that has been formally proposed by any party.

Say for instance the trust needed £500,000 in the first instance then a subscription\membership on a monthly\yearly basis. What time scale would you suggest for raising the initial funding to buy into the club? Would a partial trust owned club work with say 25% of the club when clearly CH would still have 75%? 

If it was to ever come to fruition I would suggest that because of people's issues with CH a partial stake in the club would not be enough,and wouldn't be until CH was totally removed from it.

As I have said the Trust led club is a great idea,but if it happens it has to be all or nothing or I fear people will not buy into it for the reason above.

CH is a pragmatist. He knows he can't get 500k back. Though I doubt he is owed that much.

I suspect he would settle for a MUCH lower amount if he retained some ownership (maybe 25%), a seat on the board and a CH room in the clubhouse. Particularly if there was a transition/handover period (a season or two) where he could still draw some salary. That would satisfy the RFL too.

[clifford]

The main issue I think is that the club is insular looking, what I mean is CH is Sat behind a wall and won't let anyone in, he mistrusts people who want to help and then drives them away. This has two effects us the fans grow to mistrust him so hate him and some walk away. 

A fine example is the anniversary dinner it's elitist £45 plus vat a ticket. The average fan won't pay it. 

I want a club that embraces its fans and includes them, I personally would have arranged a gala disco for the presentation of end of season trophys etc a night to say thank you to the players. 

 

[tandle]

hotb why I ask this question because I believe ch takes a salary which a club in champ.1 it cant afford.  as you are saying you would employ a commercial manager he/she would have to be paid on results only i.e. commission 0nly if  he/she was paid a salary it would be financial suicide. people talk of a supporters club if a 100 of them put in a £1.000 each problem solved.

[HomeOfTheTubularBandage]

11 minutes ago, tandle said:

hotb why I ask this question because I believe ch takes a salary which a club in champ.1 it cant afford.  as you are saying you would employ a commercial manager he/she would have to be paid on results only i.e. commission 0nly if  he/she was paid a salary it would be financial suicide. people talk of a supporters club if a 100 of them put in a £1.000 each problem solved.

A commercial Manager could not be employed on commission only. Salary, commission and on costs would be around 50-60k. But they should generate 100k pa - paying for themselves and a membership liaison officer..... with 25k surplus. These would be monthly target based and performance managed by the board. Plus there's the reputational value and increased attendance that comes from a higher profile. This has both a social and monetary value.

[tandle]

I have watched commercial managers at the old Oldham club remember the one where money was  going missing, they put monies in the safe noted the numbers and he was arrested in a hotel where the   committee where staying at Wembley buying drinks over the bar fact. make them earn their coin.

[HomeOfTheTubularBandage]

8 hours ago, tandle said:

I have watched commercial managers at the old Oldham club remember the one where money was  going missing, they put monies in the safe noted the numbers and he was arrested in a hotel where the   committee where staying at Wembley buying drinks over the bar fact. make them earn their coin.

Right, so all commercial managers are crooks then?

Why do you assume everything would be run badly?

A commercial manager wouldn't be responsible for just income generation. A large part of their work would be communication, PR and stakeholder engagement and increasing supporter numbers. Modern business is reputation/engagement driven and this work is AS important as sales.

We're not looking for a wide boy in a shiny suit. It's not selling ###### double glazing in the 1970s. You don't employ decent marketing, fundraising, PR staff on a commission only basis. It's not a pure sales job. You pay commission only and you get a chancer, someone out on the road neglecting all other areas of the business. You pay peanuts you get monkeys. How do expect them to feel part of the team if you don't invest in them?

And there would be many checks and balances to prevent or detect fraud. Particularly with Trusts you have to have proper governance and assurance. All sponsors and funders require formal contracts. Any managerial staff work within a commitment accounting system and strict sales reporting system. They would be subject to monthly financial and performance meetings with the board to monitor and check progress against budgets and targets.

Plus, if a trust has formal charitable status there are even more stringent regulations and financial management support available from the charities commission.

In terms of money raised from a membership scheme you need that AS WELL as money raised by a commercial manager.

And there should be different levels of membership so everyone can afford to be a member - I've outlined example membership levels, costs and benefits before.

These are just my ideas of how you could set up/support RO, raise initial cash, manage the CH situation, buy the club, raise further cash and profile and supporter/member engagement.

R34 says I never outline them, even though I've done it several times now.

You can lead a horse to water.... but you can't make it drink. I can't drag you out of the 80s. I cant make you unite and actually do something. The truth is most of you would rather moan and do nothing. Wait for someone else to come and solve your problens for you.

Well, no one's coming. They're really not! So, it's carry on like the last ten years - in slow decline towards the inevitable death of the club - or organise yourselves and put your money where your mouth is.

[geoffcooke]

Rugby Oldham application form as requested.

Twitter feed is:-    @RugbyOldhamSupp               this is largely used to promote games at all levels in Oldham rather than for comment

Re further discussion prompted by HOTTB Rugby Oldham's first prerequisite to talks is access to financial information and no progress can be made without this. How many of you would buy a house without knowing the price?

Criticise RO all you like but we won't pour money down a black hole.

RO App form.pdf

[LittleHarryB]

Rugby Oldham supports the local Amateur clubs each year.

I don't think they are  the vehicle to take over the club. They should continue to do what they are doing now and support all rugby in the town.

It needs new investors to come in.

To take the club over now is akin to buying a car such as a roller that his missing the wheels electronics and an engine before it can move an inch. Bur a shell and spend a lot of money converting into something that you can work with.

As for CH he has been in charge for nearly 20 years and should not become a director in any new set up. He could become the president with no involvement in running the club.

As to what the clubs debts are look on companies house web site it will tell you. The information is only shown in abbreviated accountancy form so will not tell you how the debts have been incurred.  Only CH knows that and he has never been one for revealing those facts.

 

[clifford]

I don't want anyone to buy the club without the books, as Geoff rightly says we did push for the books, but the books didn't come and the meeting was never rescheduled. 

I know that we and rugby Oldham asked for further meetings but we were ignored 

Hence why I stopped going 

I for one feel that the club is in an extremely difficult position and I might be wrong but the books will show what a mess we are in 

But for all the bad press CH gets he does pay the players on time. 

Finally two years ago a junior coach asked Scott if he could or a player could speak to his under 8 team, they were both training at hollins road school, Scott said that he couldn't as all requests had to be done via CH. 

now if it was miles away and on a different night I would understand but it was at the same time. 

Now that is poor pr

[roughyed34]

Cheers for that Geoff.

 

[HomeOfTheTubularBandage]

3 hours ago, LittleHarryB said:

Rugby Oldham supports the local Amateur clubs each year.

I don't think they are  the vehicle to take over the club. They should continue to do what they are doing now and support all rugby in the town.

It needs new investors to come in.

To take the club over now is akin to buying a car such as a roller that his missing the wheels electronics and an engine before it can move an inch. Bur a shell and spend a lot of money converting into something that you can work with.

As for CH he has been in charge for nearly 20 years and should not become a director in any new set up. He could become the president with no involvement in running the club.

As to what the clubs debts are look on companies house web site it will tell you. The information is only shown in abbreviated accountancy form so will not tell you how the debts have been incurred.  Only CH knows that and he has never been one for revealing those facts.

 

Yes we now about the debts situation but the accounts are overdue with companies house, so we don't know the current position.

If it is to be a supporters Trust then it MUST be through RO as they are the sanctioned supporters trust for Oldham. A new trust cannot be established, it would have to be a 500 person business consortium. Much harder to manage. Why re-invent the wheel when a trust with the necessary constitution, governance and assurance already exists and can be adapted. RO is NOT just for the amateur game. I'm sure Geoff could enlighten you.

There is no reason the Trust couldn't continue to fulfil it's role in the amateur game. Nor does a trust preclude new investors. These things are not mutually exclusive.

No one is going to, or can afford to, spend a lot of money converting it which is why a transition period is more likely to work, more likely to be acceptable to the RFL and the only affordable way for fans to buy the club.

[roughyed34]

Totally agree with that post HOTTB and thanks for outlining your ideas. The million dollar question is after all our discussions here, how do we go forward?

Informal meeting of minds perhaps at some point, with people such as yourself,Clifford etc (as you guys have more knowledge of the meetings with CH etc), RO representation,any other interested people,so ideas,thoughts,schemes,information could be shared over a beer or coffee?

Stopping short of a massive public meeting , it would be perhaps beneficial for a small gathering to meet face to face and have a discussion, names to faces etc?

After all ,we all want Oldham to have a future, that's why we are all passionate about ORLFC. 

Just a thought.

 

[Bedford Roughyed]

I wish people would stop using investment or investor.  There is no such thing in RL.  You will lose money, end of.  

[roughyed34]

.

[tandle]

the way I see it ch is the sole owner of Oldham rlfc ltd and it is not for sale, you are asking a man to give his income up when HE is  doing very nicely

[roughyed34]

It is for sale though Tandle,CH has said numerous times that he will sell if the right offer comes along.

[clifford]

The right money for him, but not for us, his valuation is out of kilter of the actual worth. 

In real terms you are buying debit and RL membership/goodwill 

[tandle]

its like I said its not for sale. 

[clifford]

I don't think it's not for sale, as I have been told it was, it's a case that the owner won't take it to the next level. 

I do believe geoff managed to get a slight change to rugby Oldham articles of association to allow ownership of the pro club. 

But the leader of Oldham rlfc returned to his shell and built his wall 

So effectively its not for sale...... Yet

I am taking I line from the Mexican president, in that we need to build a tunnel 

I'll get my coat ?

But all in all seriousness the way forward is a trust cos what would happen if something serious was to happen to CH, the club would fold and who would bet on the rfl rejecting a new Oldham club 

The company needs to be reassessed with new income streams being brought in, not just sponsorship but fund raising, I hear that the old pit club is now been updated and the function room will be in use, engage with people something CH won't do

[clifford]

Finally, I love the club, I wanted to play for it, I never managed to but alot of my friends did. 

So I was on hand to help in 2015 and bridges were built but they have been burnt

I did feel bitter but not now but I see the dieing before my eyes and that makes me sad, I personally think that it is not a one person business but you need to employ staff and not rely on volunteers 

Look professional and that's half the battle at the moment we look more like Delboy Trotter than Alan Suffer and that's the problem 

[tandle]

we are all fans of Oldham rlfc expressing our feelings on this forum, but the truth of the matter is that before doing anything, first and foremost it would be essential to get a set of upto date accounts to scrutinise  until this happens it is stalemate. 

[The Art of Hand and Foot]

43 minutes ago, tandle said:

we are all fans of Oldham rlfc expressing our feelings on this forum, but the truth of the matter is that before doing anything, first and foremost it would be essential to get a set of upto date accounts to scrutinise  until this happens it is stalemate. 

Sorry I disagree. First and foremost you need the money and clout to make an offer. Then, and only then will the accounts be made available. No money, no clout , no accounts. So if you are really serious then get together, make a legal binding agreement to put in a certain amount of cash that will only be called for when a deal is made. Now if you can't get a promise of at least £500k  then forget it. You won't be able to cover the purchase and costs.

[Roughyedz]

Well Oldham have well and truely missed this boat now it seems

 

[ChampagneCharlieReturns]

34 minutes ago, Roughyedz said:

Well Oldham have well and truely missed this boat now it seems

 

Wouldn't want him he's dodgy as they come but thank Corney for that pal 

[tandle]

thaf before you start talking money you have to find how much money you are talking about. so then if you are interested you then look to raise the funds needed, that is why you need a set of upto date accounts just see what you are potentially buying you need the true figures in black and white.