Boxing

[EggFace]

2 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Fury gets the decision but it was clearly one to save face.

What a fraud. If you didn't know which one was the boxer, you wouldn't be able to tell and might even have thought it was Ngannou. 

A Circus like his half brother Tommy and the rich cult like knackers like the Paul Brothers and that Tool KSI...Boxing like Rugby Union can die.

[StandOffHalf]

What a remarkable, incredible performance from Francis Ngannou!

 

I had it 95-95. A really close fight, with Ngannou landing the more telling blows.

 

Kudos to Francis for doing himself and MMA proud. His humble graciousness and belief are wonderful.

 

[StandOffHalf]

Tyson Fury floored by Francis Ngannou but wins controversial split decision | Tyson Fury | The Guardian

I feel Ngannou deserved a draw. He didn't lose that fight.

Edited October 29, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[StandOffHalf]

I had it a draw, with Fury getting out of jail because Francis didn't ram it home in the last 2 rounds. Fury didn't deserve to win; Francis didn't deserve to lose. I think a draw would have been a just and fair outcome.

 

 

 

[StandOffHalf]

Tyson Fury-Francis Ngannou was just a cash grab to everyone -- except Ngannou - ESPN

[Maximus Decimus]

11 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think you’re exaggerating again or being prone to believe others talking about the seismic nature of things here.

I guess it’s the way of the world these days.

Feels more like heavyweight champion of the world doesn’t bother training for non title exhibition fight against MMA fighter to make a quick buck.

 

It's the heavyweight champion 8 weeks out from the first undisputed fight in a generation. His inability to beat a relatively old MMA fighter is seismic IMO.

Since the rise of UFC/MMA, the argument has always been that while an MMA fighter is a better all-rounder, their striking skills are primitive compared to boxers. I've heard all sorts since these crossover fights started, about how if they wanted to the boxer would never get touched, or could take them out at any point if they wanted. 

I don't know if you watched, but Fury really struggled in all parts, and the only person likely to get taken out was Fury.

Of course they'll throw out the ill-prepared line, but it shouldn't have been a factor. British RL teams have benefitted over the years by beating undercut Aussie sides, but at the same time if Penrith stepped off the plane and went straight to the ground they'd still beat Widnes handily. There are levels.

This further legitimises UFC/MMA over boxing. The image of an overweight WBC and 'lineal' champion on his backside after being hit by a chiseled MMA fighter will do untold damage to boxing IMO.

[Gerrumonside ref]

3 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

It's the heavyweight champion 8 weeks out from the first undisputed fight in a generation. His inability to beat a relatively old MMA fighter is seismic IMO.

Since the rise of UFC/MMA, the argument has always been that while an MMA fighter is a better all-rounder, their striking skills are primitive compared to boxers. I've heard all sorts since these crossover fights started, about how if they wanted to the boxer would never get touched, or could take them out at any point if they wanted. 

I don't know if you watched, but Fury really struggled in all parts, and the only person likely to get taken out was Fury.

Of course they'll throw out the ill-prepared line, but it shouldn't have been a factor. British RL teams have benefitted over the years by beating undercut Aussie sides, but at the same time if Penrith stepped off the plane and went straight to the ground they'd still beat Widnes handily. There are levels.

This further legitimises UFC/MMA over boxing. The image of an overweight WBC and 'lineal' champion on his backside after being hit by a chiseled MMA fighter will do untold damage to boxing IMO.

Fury took him lightly, didn’t train properly and hasn’t boxed for 11 months.

Fair play to the MMA fighter who nobody thought had a chance.

Everything else you’re saying though is an exaggeration I’m sorry.

[Maximus Decimus]

39 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Fury took him lightly, didn’t train properly and hasn’t boxed for 11 months.

Fair play to the MMA fighter who nobody thought had a chance.

Everything else you’re saying though is an exaggeration I’m sorry.

Ngannou hasn't boxed period.

Let's say that Fury agrees to fight Usyk on the 23rd (he won't of course), are you saying that this will do nothing to take away from that fight in the eyes of the general public? Even if he dominates him, people will just throw Ngannou back at him.

When a long retired 40 year old Mayweather fought a near-peak McGregor, he didn't take it seriously and got a stoppage. Even then, the narrative was that he toyed with him and could've ended it when he wanted. After all, he's a boxer fighting an MMA fighter. The skill levels at that sport aren't close.

Last night, the reigning WBC champion got dropped and then survived against an MMA fighter. There is no question that he was simply playing with Ngannou. 

I get what you're saying about it just being an exhibition, but I think you're underestimating the damage this does to the image of top-level boxing. In RL, at the top level, we pride ourselves on having superior athletes, tackling and handling skills to RU. That gets shot out of the water if the Kangaroos lose to the All Blacks at RL regardless of how seriously they took it.

The UFC now gets to play the 'superior athlete' card and believe me they will.

 

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

18 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Ngannou hasn't boxed period.

Let's say that Fury agrees to fight Usyk on the 23rd (he won't of course), are you saying that this will do nothing to take away from that fight in the eyes of the general public? Even if he dominates him, people will just throw Ngannou back at him.

When a long retired 40 year old Mayweather fought a near-peak McGregor, he didn't take it seriously and got a stoppage. Even then, the narrative was that he toyed with him and could've ended it when he wanted. After all, he's a boxer fighting an MMA fighter. The skill levels at that sport aren't close.

Last night, the reigning WBC champion got dropped and then survived against an MMA fighter. There is no question that he was simply playing with Ngannou. 

I get what you're saying about it just being an exhibition, but I think you're underestimating the damage this does to the image of top-level boxing. In RL, at the top level, we pride ourselves on having superior athletes, tackling and handling skills to RU. That gets shot out of the water if the Kangaroos lose to the All Blacks at RL regardless of how seriously they took it.

The UFC now gets to play the 'superior athlete' card and believe me they will.

 

 

I think you’re getting a bit carried away mate with the profound meaning of last night.

But I understand that it’s easy to get swept along with things in the moment.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[StandOffHalf]

Ngannou may be 37 and an MMA fighter, but his first love was boxing. He only started seriously in his mid-20s.

I wasn't surprised that he made a good go of it.

[GeordieSaint]

 

[StandOffHalf]

Dana will be loathe to praise Francis, since he upped and left the UFC for the PFL...

[Click]

47 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Ngannou hasn't boxed period.

Let's say that Fury agrees to fight Usyk on the 23rd (he won't of course), are you saying that this will do nothing to take away from that fight in the eyes of the general public? Even if he dominates him, people will just throw Ngannou back at him.

When a long retired 40 year old Mayweather fought a near-peak McGregor, he didn't take it seriously and got a stoppage. Even then, the narrative was that he toyed with him and could've ended it when he wanted. After all, he's a boxer fighting an MMA fighter. The skill levels at that sport aren't close.

Last night, the reigning WBC champion got dropped and then survived against an MMA fighter. There is no question that he was simply playing with Ngannou. 

I get what you're saying about it just being an exhibition, but I think you're underestimating the damage this does to the image of top-level boxing. In RL, at the top level, we pride ourselves on having superior athletes, tackling and handling skills to RU. That gets shot out of the water if the Kangaroos lose to the All Blacks at RL regardless of how seriously they took it.

The UFC now gets to play the 'superior athlete' card and believe me they will.

 

 

This kind of result can only happen in the heavyweight division, any other weight class of champion boxer Vs MMA goes with the boxer easily IMO(fought under boxing rules)

This is pretty embarrassing for Fury & heavyweight boxing, but he destroys Usyk still IMO. Size plays a big factor

[StandOffHalf]

Should have been a point off for Fury as well... He's not in the octagon...

 

[Maximus Decimus]

37 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think you’re getting a bit carried away mate with the profound meaning of last night.

But I understand that it’s easy to get swept along with things in the moment.

I don't think we'll agree about the effects on boxing, and realistically it will be hard to ever prove. Boxing has been in a decline for a while and if it goes further into decline it'll be hard to pinpoint it on this fight.

However, I think it's been terrible for Fury personally. This morning, and I know it's in the heat of the moment, there's been a lot of reassessment of how good he actually is/was.

There was always a question about how good Fury was, whether Klitschko was a fluke and the quality of his opponents etc, but by enlarge the Wilder trilogy put paid to that amongst the general boxing public.

This fight has definitely led to a re-examination of his record and IMO even when the dust has settled it'll have damaged his legacy long-term.

[Maximus Decimus]

9 minutes ago, Click said:

This kind of result can only happen in the heavyweight division, any other weight class of champion boxer Vs MMA goes with the boxer easily IMO(fought under boxing rules)

This is pretty embarrassing for Fury & heavyweight boxing, but he destroys Usyk still IMO. Size plays a big factor

This was part of the problem IMO. He has often used his size to lean on fighters and tire them out (something Wilder and Cunningham complained about) but it wasn't going to work with a UFC guy.

He basically got it all wrong and is paying the price today. No doubt he'll retire and then unretire and then face Mike Tyson in an exhibition all while screaming everyone is ducking him including Ngannou.

[StandOffHalf]

Fury is the best of his generation by a mile.

Fair play to him for going in against a dangerous opponent. Ngannou's grappling was able to cope with Fury's holding, whereas other opponents have been worn out.

In the short-term people will bash and mock him for going down last night, but he did stay outside and point fight as Ngannou tired and his output dropped. Enough so to win in the eyes of two judges.

Give him an extra couple of months to ramp up and prepare for Usyk. If he trains well, Usyk and him will be a defining chapter in this heavyweight generation.

I thought Ngannou deserved a draw last night, but I credit Francis with doing well and doing things like stance switches and grappling that affected Fury.

Credit to both fighters for last night.

Edited October 29, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[StandOffHalf]

Fury just before departing for home.

[RoyBoy295]

Fury wasn't losing that fight, the fight on the 23rd December between Fury and Usyk is too much for the promoter to lose.

Usyk didn't look impressed with Fury during the fight, and neither was I. Ngannou certainly held his own and i thought was worthy of the win. Fury looked out of shape.

I cant see Fury beating Usyk come December.

[Maximus Decimus]

8 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

Fury just before departing for home.

You can't trust anything that comes out of his mouth, but even saying that I think that this is strange from him. I didn't expect that he would try to make out like he'd had a great camp, because that seriously makes him look worse. The underestimating and undertraining idea would have at least been an excuse. What is he saying now? That at his best he can only just beat an MMA fighter who has never boxed?

One thing I would say about this video, is that I'm not sure he's in a great place mentally. It reminds me of the sort of interviews he was giving after beating Klitschko.

 

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, RoyBoy295 said:

Fury wasn't losing that fight, the fight on the 23rd December between Fury and Usyk is too much for the promoter to lose.

Usyk didn't look impressed with Fury during the fight, and neither was I. Ngannou certainly held his own and i thought was worthy of the win. Fury looked out of shape.

I cant see Fury beating Usyk come December.

They won't be fighting, both Fury and Warren have basically said as much.

Of course being those clowns, there is footage of them from before the fight saying that Usyk cannot back out on the 23rd because it's under contract etc.

Fury would likely beat Usyk because he would be able to use his size in a way he was unable to do against Ngannou.

[StandOffHalf]

4 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

You can't trust anything that comes out of his mouth, but even saying that I think that this is strange from him. I didn't expect that he would try to make out like he'd had a great camp, because that seriously makes him look worse. The underestimating and undertraining idea would have at least been an excuse. What is he saying now? That at his best he can only just beat an MMA fighter who has never boxed?

One thing I would say about this video, is that I'm not sure he's in a great place mentally. It reminds me of the sort of interviews he was giving after beating Klitschko.

 

He does look a bit morose and lacking in fire/passion. Almost dejected in a way.

I thought he looked in as good shape as he has for most of his recent outings, and he certainly trimmed quite a lot of the flabbiness from a month or so prior.

I think it's important to remember that Fury often has fought at the level of his opponent in the past, doing enough to out-point and get a decision. The ability of Ngannou to compete in the clinch and grapple is something that Fury hasn't encountered before. That must have been something of a surprise. Fury likes feinting a lot and Ngannou didn't react to that. He was hitting the gloves of Fury deliberately and that is also something that other fighters haven't utilised against Fury. The hand-fighting and grappling are important in MMA, and Francis was able to counter-act these things that Fury often turns to. 

Fury saw that and turned to jabbing in the middle rounds. His points-fighting scored him rounds. Watching live, I scored it a draw, but I can certainly see the argument for Fury winning by a point or two.

I imagine it'll be February or March before the Usyk fight. I think Fury has to be the favourite, but Usyk will fancy his chances.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by StandOffHalf

[Maximus Decimus]

On the night, I certainly felt like Ngannou was having the better of it and that he'd probably done enough to win. However, I was aware that part of this might be because it was so unexpected and the fact that he'd not been easily beaten had led to a false image of how well he actually did.

I decided to watch the whole fight again and score it. I decided to try my best to score it objectively, imagining that they were both neutral boxers of a similar level etc. Here's what I came up with as to who won the round:

Round 1 - easy Fury (10-9)

Round 2 - slight Fury (20-18)

Round 3 - easy Ngannou with knockdown (28-28)

Round 4 - slight Fury (38-37)

Round 5 - slight Fury (48-46)

Round 6 - easy Fury (58-55)

Round 7 - slight Ngannou (67-65)

Round 8 - easy Ngannou (76-75)

Round 9 - easy Fury (86-84)

Round 10 - very slight Fury (96-93) - I'd probably have given it 10-10 tbh.

I noticed a few observations during the fight which might not have helped. Every half-shot that Ngannou gets was cheered like a knockdown, any similar shot of Fury's was greeted with very little. Fury did seem to struggle with Ngannou's power and was more bothered by his shots, but he did catch Ngannou more often than he was caught.

Funnily enough, it's a bit like Fury-Wilder 1 in that everybody came away believing Fury had been robbed. However, that was another fight where he wasn't expected to last a few rounds and did way better than expected. Morally Fury won, but Wilder actually knocked him down twice so a draw was a fair result IMO. 

[Maximus Decimus]

I purposely didn't check the real judges scorecards so that I wasn't skewed and after looking at them, my scores are almost identical to the 95-94 judge, who gave the final round to Ngannou which I can understand.

Also, I just read that after rewatching the fight (and after previously declared Ngannou won), Teddy Atlas has scored it 97-93 Fury.

[StandOffHalf]

6 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I purposely didn't check the real judges scorecards so that I wasn't skewed and after looking at them, my scores are almost identical to the 95-94 judge, who gave the final round to Ngannou which I can understand.

Also, I just read that after rewatching the fight (and after previously declared Ngannou won), Teddy Atlas has scored it 97-93 Fury.

I had the last round level as well. They were both pretty gun-shy and stand-offish in that one as the clock ran out. I gave a couple more rounds to Ngannou but it was one of those ones where Fury by a couple or a draw would have been understandable.

All the moaning from MMA quarters is because they are applying MMA scoring metrics to this fight (significant strikes, damage, control). Points-fighting is what got Fury over the line.

Like Fury in the first Wilder fight, Francis is very much the moral victor here. One judge giving him the nod is a big win for him. 

Against a pressure fighter (Chisora might angle for a shot at him), Francis might be in for a a more challenging boxing experience. He did really well on the night and, as an MMA fan, I was massively proud of him.