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Toronto Affect Still to be felt

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20 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Really, most of the Chairmen I can think of are wealthy and in their (rugby) position not because they have had some inherent wealth to fall back on but quite the opposite in that they are self-made, they would most probably be life long supporter's standing on the terraces with their mates from an early age and also natives from the town of who's club's they finance.

If I am correct, please explain to me at what point will they decide that all of the work, time and energy they have given to their clubs (the one that is in their DNA) will come second to putting other clubs before their own, you may be missing the point but that duty to the fans and sponsers I state also affects them, they will also most probably be their clubs biggest fan and sponser, being wealty they could choose hundreds of ways to spend their well earned and time, but they choose to use those commodities on what is closest to their hearts. 

Of course they have a duty to the game, but to say that should be their No1 priority I strongly disagree, as I said "Charity begins at home" it is human nature to look after that first.

 

Thanks for your reply but I still believe that the duty of care is to the game as priority number one so that the product is still attractive enough for the fans to continue coming in decades time, not short term thinking and looking after yourself especially if the downward trend across the m62 continues, albeit slowly. Chairmen need to ensure that the game thrives into the next generation, putting self interest first and blocking NA expansion (you could bet your house that it won't happen) will not allow this. 

 

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3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

In 2019 Penrith will field a staggering 9000 junior players across a record 580 teams, including 54 female sides”. As I understand it TWP’s junior development programme still stands at zero players in their third year, but worse than that they haven't signed to Canada RL to even start any development. So no "new blood" at all in Toronto now or in the future eh? What an offer that is!!

Penrith have been around for 50years and are located in the worlds largest rugby league market. Twp 3years in an emerging market. Hardly comparing applies with apples.

You have been asking for signs of NA domestic player development for 3years now. How does this suit your criteria for acceptance.
https://www.rugbyleagueplanet.com/united-states/new-york-rugby-league-franchise-and-usa-rugby-league-llc-form-partnership

What's your opinion? Serious question.

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8 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Cost of living where ?

At the moment it isn't a factor but if they start to play a majority of games in north america then it would make sense to base the players in canada.

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6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Sorry Tommy but your changing the goalposts as everyone does to get around the reality. The criteria for bringing extra money into the game as a whole is develop more pro-players to stock more teams and sell those extra pro teams to TV for more money. Then put that money in the pool for all to share.

It isn’t overseas owners personal  “sponsorship”, it isn’t “just rich people wanting a toy” we need. If it was, all Argylle or any rich person has to do is sponsor Superleague for £11,000,000 a season or better still just offer the 11 other clubs £1Million each for the purchase of a place in Superleague. Then they get to play with their toy without having to do the hard work and develop any players or TV deals.

You’ll end up with a total farce. And the rejection of North American clubs is exactly that – to stop a load of alleged rich playboys coming in, offering nothing of substance, then swanning off when they get bored. 

As has been proven time and time again that's only your criteria.

Your own editing has deceived you here. Personal sponsorship was not mentioned. Sponsorship comes from companies who want to have exposure and association to other brands through their own network of exposure. As discussed on another thread SL sponsorship is currently a pittance at some clubs - going on some firms expenses books they're so low. No wonder several SL teams cannot afford to spend to cap despite being literally handed that money through the TV deal. Grow the reach of the game to grow the sponsorship potential. 

They've brought in crowds to watch live RL in greater numbers than do at a number of SL clubs. Those fans are active on social media. In the modern world they are pushing harder than lots of teams. On Instagram for example they have more followers than Wakefield and Cas combined (after 3 years), in fact, only Leeds and Wigan have more followers. I for one am very happy that I'm more likely to not get looked at confused for being an RL fan in one of the largest cities in the world because of the support the WP have grown in a very short amount of time. I value those new fans as highly important to the future of the sport. 

Finally on the 'rich playboys', they've already come in via the backdoor - just sadly not into Super League. They're in the NRL and Northern Hemisphere rugby union. They could and do poach our best players at will because we don't have them in our league. Sadly that is the way of professional sport these days, but if the choice is between seeing for example Kallum Watkins playing for Toronto in SL or the Titans in the NRL or worse Leicester in RU, I know exactly which one I'd pick. Super League is just waking up to the fact it doesn't exist in its own bubble, the marquee player and RU returner rule on the Salary cap proves that. 

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8 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

As Toronto Wolfpack are based in Manchester and employ mostly British & Australians, which players count as overseas players? Would it be a Canadian one? 🐺🙄

As I said Hemel they should be regarded as a British team in the respect of overseas players, playing to the same rules as any other team.

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Years 

9 hours ago, Hemel Stag said:

Is it because living in Manchester is cheaper than Toronto ? 😉

Toronto isn't that bad. The average cost of living in Toronto is £18000, with the current exchange rates, per year. The average cost of living in Manchester, tenth most expensive city in the UK, is £16800 per year, still 30% cheaper than London. The average wage in Toronto is £32100. The average wage in Manchester is £26700.

Tax brackets is were it gets interesting

Canada: based on taxable income (whatever that means) 15% to $45,282. 20.5% on $45,283 - $90,563. 26% on $90,564 - $140,388. 29% on $140,389 - $200,000. 33% over $200,000.

Uk: 0% up to £12,500. 20% on £12,501 - £50,000. 40% on £50,001 - £150,000. 45% on over £150,000.

Tax saved by a player on £150,000 being paid via Canadian wages is significant.

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6 hours ago, Kayakman said:

People over here like England...especially the North.  Many people (including myself) have deep historical roots there...I think you are not properly dealing with many other issues exposed in your post, unrelated to the Wolfpack or Canada at all.

You've got to get a grip on this inferiority complex you are displaying....Come to Toronto for a game!...relax in the famous beer garden!..watch the Pack run and then kill!....its a nice way to pass the time and it will make you relax a bit!

No.....nothing exposed or displayed........merely a response to the many derogatory and condescending comments on this thread and plenty of others on this forum. 

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8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

What players we have are just enough to support the game here.

You lot leach off the game here you'll suck the blood out of it mate.

In 2019 Penrith will field a staggering 9000 junior players across a record 580 teams, including 54 female sides”. As I understand it TWP’s junior development programme still stands at zero players in their third year, but worse than that they haven't signed to Canada RL to even start any development. So no "new blood" at all in Toronto now or in the future eh? What an offer that is!!

I hope you don't mind me quoting only a part of your last post. On the first two lines, I agree with you.

The numbers you quote in your comments about Penrith could be multiplied by 10 times if all the other Australian NRL districts were counted. A much bigger percentage of these players will become super league quality than we ever see represented each week on the Australian television coverage. There are also loads of quality players who just don't stay long as NRL first teamers.

The average tenure of a player in the NRL first grade is very short. The reason for this, is the white-heat of competition for places. These players then, play reserve grade, or go back to country football or drop out. If I were running Toronto I'd be looking there for players to fill my squad if the salary cap doesn't prevent them looking.

I can tell you love Rugby League, Parky and for that I salute you. We need bl**dy good answers to all your objections. Not to shut you up, but to make sure, your worst fears don't become reality and the whole game is destroyed. Your devil's advocate stance presents a very serious challenge to all the dreamers naivety so its a very valuable contribution to the debate. 

Toronto (and any others) should engage with the existing amateur Canadian RL (as the NY people seem to have begun with USARL) and begin the long development process. That they haven't done so, doesn't inspire confidence.

Robert Elstone (and the SL chairmen, owners) will, I'm sure, be mindful of your fears and will be trying to work out a way to let these people in at the right level and at the right pace, without ''sucking the blood out of us'' here. I just hope they can find a way. Rejecting them, out of hand just seems shabby.

As a footnote, why aren't we producing 9000 junior players in our districts? I believe we have done, what you accuse Toronto of, and neglected our ''duty'' to foster the game in new areas. Its not the games fault. I believe it can be done, if its done right because this is the greatest sporting product on earth.

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7 hours ago, Kayakman said:

People over here like England...especially the North.  Many people (including myself) have deep historical roots there...I think you are not properly dealing with many other issues exposed in your post, unrelated to the Wolfpack or Canada at all.

You've got to get a grip on this inferiority complex you are displaying....Come to Toronto for a game!...relax in the famous beer garden!..watch the Pack run and then kill!....its a nice way to pass the time and it will make you relax a bit!

I've been to Canada several times mate, through work, not Toronto though, I've also got relatives over in Alberta, right out in the sticks, my grandfather's brother went there so my generation of my relatives are Canadian. They still have a feeling of belonging to England and Yorkshire. Believe it or not the vast majority of people over here have affection for Canada and Australia as well. 

When I cross the pond these days I take my kids to Florida, so a Sports trip to Toronto isn't going to happen for me as for just a little more money I can get a return flight and 14 nights in Orlando for 4 rather than a return flight and 3 nights in Toronto for 2.

TWP is a Rugby League Club so I don't want it to fail, the genuine fans in the Greater Toronto Area it's managed to hook would be left abandoned and it wouldn't be down to us fans in the North of England it would be down to its own ownership, either jumping ship or switching codes when things got a bit too pricey........

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3 hours ago, North but south said:

Tax brackets is were it gets interesting

Canada: based on taxable income (whatever that means) 15% to $45,282. 20.5% on $45,283 - $90,563. 26% on $90,564 - $140,388. 29% on $140,389 - $200,000. 33% over $200,000.

Uk: 0% up to £12,500. 20% on £12,501 - £50,000. 40% on £50,001 - £150,000. 45% on over £150,000.

Tax saved by a player on £150,000 being paid via Canadian wages is significant.

I can help you there, taxable income is total income minus allowable deductions.  A few of those remain, the rest (such as the basic exemption, 65+ age exemption, exemption for supporting a non-working spouse etc.) were converted from deductions to credits which equal the basic rate (15% now) multiplied by the amount which was previously deductible back in the 1980s; those exemption amounts automatically increase with inflation each year up to (if memory serves) a maximum of 3%.

That said, the rates you quoted are just for federal income tax.  Provincial income tax rates vary from province to province, as do the provincial equivalents of those federal exemptions amounts.

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11 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I can help you there, taxable income is total income minus allowable deductions.  A few of those remain, the rest (such as the basic exemption, 65+ age exemption, exemption for supporting a non-working spouse etc.) were converted from deductions to credits which equal the basic rate (15% now) multiplied by the amount which was previously deductible back in the 1980s; those exemption amounts automatically increase with inflation each year up to (if memory serves) a maximum of 3%.

That said, the rates you quoted are just for federal income tax.  Provincial income tax rates vary from province to province, as do the provincial equivalents of those federal exemptions amounts.

Quote

Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

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2 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

I've been to Canada several times mate, through work, not Toronto though, I've also got relatives over in Alberta, right out in the sticks, my grandfather's brother went there so my generation of my relatives are Canadian. They still have a feeling of belonging to England and Yorkshire. Believe it or not the vast majority of people over here have affection for Canada and Australia as well. 

When I cross the pond these days I take my kids to Florida, so a Sports trip to Toronto isn't going to happen for me as for just a little more money I can get a return flight and 14 nights in Orlando for 4 rather than a return flight and 3 nights in Toronto for 2.

TWP is a Rugby League Club so I don't want it to fail, the genuine fans in the Greater Toronto Area it's managed to hook would be left abandoned and it wouldn't be down to us fans in the North of England it would be down to its own ownership, either jumping ship or switching codes when things got a bit too pricey........

We are in it for the long haul..forget those Florida trips now...come to Toronto instead...the people are nicer.

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3 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

No.....nothing exposed or displayed........merely a response to the many derogatory and condescending comments on this thread and plenty of others on this forum. 

Ahh..its just the Aussies on here getting your goat...the old battle continues.  We Canadians, we will play the peacemaker as aleways.

I really think it is the close minded mentality that they have a problem with...the fear of expansion being the best example.

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2 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I hope you don't mind me quoting only a part of your last post. On the first two lines, I agree with you.

The numbers you quote in your comments about Penrith could be multiplied by 10 times if all the other Australian NRL districts were counted. A much bigger percentage of these players will become super league quality than we ever see represented each week on the Australian television coverage. There are also loads of quality players who just don't stay long as NRL first teamers.

The average tenure of a player in the NRL first grade is very short. The reason for this, is the white-heat of competition for places. These players then, play reserve grade, or go back to country football or drop out. If I were running Toronto I'd be looking there for players to fill my squad if the salary cap doesn't prevent them looking.

I can tell you love Rugby League, Parky and for that I salute you. We need bl**dy good answers to all your objections. Not to shut you up, but to make sure, your worst fears don't become reality and the whole game is destroyed. Your devil's advocate stance presents a very serious challenge to all the dreamers naivety so its a very valuable contribution to the debate. 

Toronto (and any others) should engage with the existing amateur Canadian RL (as the NY people seem to have begun with USARL) and begin the long development process. That they haven't done so, doesn't inspire confidence.

Robert Elstone (and the SL chairmen, owners) will, I'm sure, be mindful of your fears and will be trying to work out a way to let these people in at the right level and at the right pace, without ''sucking the blood out of us'' here. I just hope they can find a way. Rejecting them, out of hand just seems shabby.

As a footnote, why aren't we producing 9000 junior players in our districts? I believe we have done, what you accuse Toronto of, and neglected our ''duty'' to foster the game in new areas. Its not the games fault. I believe it can be done, if its done right because this is the greatest sporting product on earth.

Very well said Irish, a little different from your previous post which seemed like a rant against anyone who dared to question anything re North America and Rugby League, like Mr Parksider I have long questioned could this 'expansion' process be sustainable and would it be of any harm or consequence to the game in the UK, when as you put it objections are raised, I would prefer to term them "questions that still need to be answered" we do not get many logical replies forthcoming from the questions that are asked, you do though put it excellently when you said "We need bl**dy good answers to all your objections. Not to shut you up, but to make sure, your worst fears don't become reality and the whole game is destroyed" 

I have said on numerous occasions that TWP should be used as a learning curve before other teams from NA are allowed into our league system, why jump headlong into the unknown when we have the perfect opportunity to assess, judge, evaluate, appraise, anylise and determine what is good and the not so good of NA teams in our league by using TWP as an example, we can then determine and set criteria for an entry level to the British game. I liken TWP as a prototype which can be tweaked and modified to get to the stage which will be both beneficial for the game over here and also new clubs  with desires over there, if TWP was a factory manufactured product no company would go into "full production" until the product is proven, the RFL and SL should in my opinion do exactly the same before accepting new clubs from across the Atlantic.

How long would I give it, 7 years of learning to get it right, if TWP are still around then and making a success of it I am very sure that others would want to come to the party, why miss the opportunity of accepting applicants that want to join now I hear people saying, it is because we simply do not know if it will be detrimental or beneficial to the game in general, hand on heart and using some grey matter all those who are firmly in the expansion camp can not tell me what will be forthcoming if we jump into the process now and let 2 new teams in 2020, in my way of doing things at least we can have some insight into what will transpire using one club as an example.

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8 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Ahh..its just the Aussies on here getting your goat...the old battle continues.  We Canadians, we will play the peacemaker as aleways.

I really think it is the close minded mentality that they have a problem with...the fear of expansion being the best example.

Would that be in the beer tents behind the posts?

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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Would that be in the beer tents behind the posts?

Oh ya..that brewery will have a tent in the beer garden...and they will be selling it in the stadium stands also...they are one of the craft brewers at the event.  Previously they had the schedule on the cans ...I'm sure these ones will sell out quickly as collectables though.

SEVEN YEARS HARRY!  You want 7 years before another team comes in?  Come On Harry...what about the concept of striking while the iron is hot...you would pound with a hammer on cooled high carbon steel until the end of time to form it...you must strike while the steel is hot!

The time to move on expansion is now...I think that is pretty clear.

 

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Very well said Irish, a little different from your previous post which seemed like a rant against anyone who dared to question anything re North America and Rugby League, like Mr Parksider I have long questioned could this 'expansion' process be sustainable and would it be of any harm or consequence to the game in the UK, when as you put it objections are raised, I would prefer to term them "questions that still need to be answered" we do not get many logical replies forthcoming from the questions that are asked, you do though put it excellently when you said "We need bl**dy good answers to all your objections. Not to shut you up, but to make sure, your worst fears don't become reality and the whole game is destroyed" 

I have said on numerous occasions that TWP should be used as a learning curve before other teams from NA are allowed into our league system, why jump headlong into the unknown when we have the perfect opportunity to assess, judge, evaluate, appraise, anylise and determine what is good and the not so good of NA teams in our league by using TWP as an example, we can then determine and set criteria for an entry level to the British game. I liken TWP as a prototype which can be tweaked and modified to get to the stage which will be both beneficial for the game over here and also new clubs  with desires over there, if TWP was a factory manufactured product no company would go into "full production" until the product is proven, the RFL and SL should in my opinion do exactly the same before accepting new clubs from across the Atlantic.

How long would I give it, 7 years of learning to get it right, if TWP are still around then and making a success of it I am very sure that others would want to come to the party, why miss the opportunity of accepting applicants that want to join now I hear people saying, it is because we simply do not know if it will be detrimental or beneficial to the game in general, hand on heart and using some grey matter all those who are firmly in the expansion camp can not tell me what will be forthcoming if we jump into the process now and let 2 new teams in 2020, in my way of doing things at least we can have some insight into what will transpire using one club as an example.

Seven years wow fmd thats a little conservative

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1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

Ahh..its just the Aussies on here getting your goat...the old battle continues.  We Canadians, we will play the peacemaker as aleways.

I really think it is the close minded mentality that they have a problem with...the fear of expansion being the best example.

Haha some Aussies, not all, and some southerners, not all.....

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

......I have said on numerous occasions that TWP should be used as a learning curve before other teams from NA are allowed into our league system, why jump headlong into the unknown when we have the perfect opportunity to assess, judge, evaluate, appraise, anylise and determine what is good and the not so good of NA teams ……….. I liken TWP as a prototype which can be tweaked and modified to get to the stage which will be both beneficial for the game over here and also new clubs  with desires over there, if TWP was a factory manufactured product no company would go into "full production" until the product is proven, the RFL and SL should in my opinion do exactly the same before accepting new clubs from across the Atlantic.

How long would I give it, 7 years of learning to get it right...…… 

I like your analogy or a prototype, which is tested and proven before roll-out, but seven years is a long time.

51 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

SEVEN YEARS HARRY!  You want 7 years before another team comes in?  Come On Harry...what about the concept of striking while the iron is hot...you would pound with a hammer on cooled high carbon steel until the end of time to form it...you must strike while the steel is hot!

The time to move on expansion is now...I think that is pretty clear.

 

Harry, you'd have to factor in David Argyles willingness to keep losing money as the only representative from the North American continent. I know he's a very rich man, but I've never met one who's willing to throw money away. I'm sure he believes what he is putting in is seed money (albeit on a much bigger scale than anything we've seen before in RL) and fully expects that seed to bear fruit in the (not to distant) future. More N.A. teams will surely hasten the influx of new money from sponsors, television, blah, blah.... so I think asking him to wait seven years is asking a lot. I think our ''due diligence'' process needs to be robust but the period of analysis must be brief in respect to these new investors.

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57 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Oh ya..that brewery will have a tent in the beer garden...and they will be selling it in the stadium stands also...they are one of the craft brewers at the event.  Previously they had the schedule on the cans ...I'm sure these ones will sell out quickly as collectables though.

SEVEN YEARS HARRY!  You want 7 years before another team comes in?  Come On Harry...what about the concept of striking while the iron is hot...you would pound with a hammer on cooled high carbon steel until the end of time to form it...you must strike while the steel is hot!

The time to move on expansion is now...I think that is pretty clear.

 

No, no and thrice no, I would wager when you are out in the wilds on some craggy rocks you most probably practice "look before you leap" stepping blindly could result in a catastrophic situation, so be cautious...... now that is a pretty clear common sense approach to adopt.

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15 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Haha some Aussies, not all, and some southerners, not all.....

Don't let them get to you Man...keep the faith.

Long Live League!

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10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No, no and thrice no, I would wager when you are out in the wilds on some craggy rocks you most probably practice "look before you leap" stepping blindly could result in a catastrophic situation, so be cautious...... now that is a pretty clear common sense approach to adopt.

Of course you always plan and prepare for the obvious and unknown....you never know what can pop up and a slip on the cliff face when hiking from base camp can be fatal when on ones own.  It doesn't mean you don't go or cancel the trip FOR SEVEN YEARS! 

Either way...your seven year window is already at 3 and 1/2 years so I say we meet you in the middle....times already up...time to GROW!

Watch the game on Sunday....observe the crowd...we have a winner here Harry...a full on winner!  I say put the whip to that stallion.

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5 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I like your analogy or a prototype, which is tested and proven before roll-out, but seven years is a long time.

Harry, you'd have to factor in David Argyles willingness to keep losing money as the only representative from the North American continent. I know he's a very rich man, but I've never met one who's willing to throw money away. I'm sure he believes what he is putting in is seed money (albeit on a much bigger scale than anything we've seen before in RL) and fully expects that seed to bear fruit in the (not to distant) future. More N.A. teams will surely hasten the influx of new money from sponsors, television, blah, blah.... so I think asking him to wait seven years is asking a lot. I think our ''due diligence'' process needs to be robust but the period of analysis must be brief in respect to these new investors.

Due Diligence can't be rushed, it can either be done properly or not at all, you can either cover all the bases and be as certain as possible or take a chance that all will be OK, it meshes perfectly with my business analogy, no good buisness would enter i to any transaction without a full thorough proper Due Diligence.

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1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Due Diligence can't be rushed, it can either be done properly or not at all, you can either cover all the bases and be as certain as possible or take a chance that all will be OK, it meshes perfectly with my business analogy, no good buisness would enter i to any transaction without a full thorough proper Due Diligence.

The due diligence has been done...the course is set and the craft underway...supplies are packed and stored properly, you always get butterflies in the belly when you start to paddle across large open water to a yet invisible shore (believe me I know)....there might be danger but you have a belief in your training and performance....you have never felt more excited and alive at the same time.....

The Wolfpack is hunting...the hunt is currently on....

Thus this weeks prey...the Old Swinton/British Lion!

"Hunt With The Pack!"

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3 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Of course you always plan and prepare for the obvious and unknown....you never know what can pop up and a slip on the cliff face when hiking from base camp can be fatal when on ones own.  It doesn't mean you don't go or cancel the trip FOR SEVEN YEARS! 

Either way...your seven year window is already at 3 and 1/2 years so I say we meet you in the middle....times already up...time to GROW!

Watch the game on Sunday....observe the crowd...we have a winner here Harry...a full on winner!  I say put the whip to that stallion.

On my 7 years perhaps I have not been clear, I consider the clock is already ticking, information has most probably already been gleaned it was slow to start with but pace and monentum is gaining speed, you entered the league in 2017, so by the end of 2023 we will be ready to go or not

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