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Toronto Affect Still to be felt

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I think the appointment of Brian McDermott is a very good choice for Toronto.

Lots of youngsters were developed at London,while he was there - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/25928537

and he played American players in the last World Cup - https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/29785/11122119/brian-mcdermott-says-progress-has-been-made-with-usa

It is not only the amount of silverware that he has guided his players to that cannot be matched by any other coach.

His affect at Toronto is also still to be felt.

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     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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13 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do we want any team buying itself to the top, we had that in the mid 80's to the mid 90's with Wigan RLFC, it was no good for the sport in general (OK for Wigan and its fans) so the rules were altered to ensure it did not happen again, so why would the SL clubs want to give the league credence for any single club to simply out-spend all the others, it just doesn't make sense and it won't happen.

Look at the Super League winners list. You'll see that 3 teams have bought themselves to the top since the beginning. 

Truely bizarre that you could type that out with a serious face.

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2 hours ago, Pulga said:

Look at the Super League winners list. You'll see that 3 teams have bought themselves to the top since the beginning. 

Truely bizarre that you could type that out with a serious face.

He is just having you on.

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17 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do we want any team buying itself to the top, we had that in the mid 80's to the mid 90's with Wigan RLFC, it was no good for the sport in general (OK for Wigan and its fans) so the rules were altered to ensure it did not happen again, so why would the SL clubs want to give the league credence for any single club to simply out-spend all the others, it just doesn't make sense and it won't happen.

Every club in the NRL can easily outspend every other rugby league club on earth. The gap is only increasing.

If you want to see the best players live in the UK you should be begging for big spending North American clubs to keep the best players in your competition.

If you keep big $ new clubs out of SL, you are handing your best athletes to the NRL.

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15 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Super league have confirmed Toronto would be promoted, Ian lenagan and Rob elston have both been effusive in their praise for Toronto and expressed their excitement for Toronto coming in. 

Should Toronto win the GF they will be promoted. That this debate keeps happening is just wishful thinking from a few mendacious empty vessels pushing their agendas.

The truest one-eyed posters on this forum were the only ones who actually believed that they were going to be blocked from promotion. Hopefully this news will wake them up with a good dose of reality.

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4 hours ago, Copa said:

Every club in the NRL can easily outspend every other rugby league club on earth. The gap is only increasing.

If you want to see the best players live in the UK you should be begging for big spending North American clubs to keep the best players in your competition.

If you keep big $ new clubs out of SL, you are handing your best athletes to the NRL.

Exactly. SL risks going the way of Scottish Football with the lowest common denominator attitude. 

The 5 live podcast this week talks about the salary cap and whilst I don't agree with every point made it is clear that it has been kept deliberately low. 

No one wants to see the return of Wigan winning everything simply because they could outspend everyone else, but we clearly need more money in the NH game to catch up to the NRL. If that comes from NA then so be it. 

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20 hours ago, Omott91 said:

I would argue that Chairmen should first and foremost have a duty to the game to ensure that it flourishes before anything else, especially before their own interests as you have stated above.

Really, most of the Chairmen I can think of are wealthy and in their (rugby) position not because they have had some inherent wealth to fall back on but quite the opposite in that they are self-made, they would most probably be life long supporter's standing on the terraces with their mates from an early age and also natives from the town of who's club's they finance.

If I am correct, please explain to me at what point will they decide that all of the work, time and energy they have given to their clubs (the one that is in their DNA) will come second to putting other clubs before their own, you may be missing the point but that duty to the fans and sponsers I state also affects them, they will also most probably be their clubs biggest fan and sponser, being wealty they could choose hundreds of ways to spend their well earned and time, but they choose to use those commodities on what is closest to their hearts. 

Of course they have a duty to the game, but to say that should be their No1 priority I strongly disagree, as I said "Charity begins at home" it is human nature to look after that first.

 

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On 23/04/2019 at 08:12, North but south said:

If they were blocked it would be the worst PR mistake they have made, I appreciate that most super league teams are scared of Toronto, the whole dynamic would change as Toronto could easily buy their way to the top.

Jeez, how can they "buy their way to the top" if the top do not let them in? Are you not aware of the Salary cap either? As for PR two of the big SL Chairmen have recently come out with support for Toulouse and not for "An English team, owned by an Australian, in Canadian Jerseys who mainly play in England" what a massive public criticism that was and guess what, nobody gave much of a stuff. They didn't did they.....😉

You clearly believe hype and big talk is how to succeed at sport rather than develop quality players and find big paying TV deals. Why? Over to you to explain yourself??

You think rejecting TWP will create big PR problems oblivious to all the headlines being set up to be "Toulouse enter Superleague" the chairmen have their positive story to tell and their expansion credentials intact once the decision is made - if it is made, and if any journo asks "what about America" well McManus has already publicly denounced the phoney baloney and not a peep of protest apart from 20 people on here.

23 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

One final point is that Mr Leneghan said that any promoted team will have to meet certain criteria before being allowed to enter SL, he has kept whatever that is firmly in his pocket, maybe just maybe it could be regarding player production? 

Oh Harry, don't be annoyed at me but Mr. Lenegan made it clear publicly some time ago to Toulouse the SL criteria for guests was add to the playing pool and add to the TV deal not take from it. This was said to TWP because in that first Interview Perez said his targets were to add to the playing pool and add to the TV deal but he didn't, it was all hype. Then recently McManus came out and said he felt Toulouse had the best chance to add to the playing pool and add to the TV deal as France actually have a structure to produce players and two French clubs in SL will have a far better chance of a TV deal with some proper Derby's.

The "certain criteria" have been in place and in public view for years my friend. 

16 hours ago, RL is the future said:

I think the key to Toronto's longevity will be success, they've had a good few years nearly got back to back promotions and are currently sitting top of the Championship so the fans are used to having it quite well. The true gauge will be when they get to SL and aren't winning every game and go through tough times we'll see if they really are a novelty or here for the long term.  

Thanks for your contribution and the reality check but it seems North by South says TWP will just buy their way to the top of Superleague and murder everyone else!! I've seen a glimpse of TWP in Superleaugue when they disgraced themselves at Warrington on the BBC, and when they played at Leeds and Salford in the play off we didn't see much extra crowd interest in them or any glamour there either.

That's what we have to look forward to and as dull as some people think SL English clubs are, a phoney Canadian club are far more duller if those three "First class" games they played here are anything to go by. 

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Exactly. SL risks going the way of Scottish Football with the lowest common denominator attitude. The 5 live podcast this week talks about the salary cap and whilst I don't agree with every point made it is clear that it has been kept deliberately low. No one wants to see the return of Wigan winning everything simply because they could outspend everyone else, but we clearly need more money in the NH game to catch up to the NRL. If that comes from NA then so be it. 

So how does that money "come from NA" then Tommy? How do we get that money? Not from North American fans through the turnstiles. The only way we can get that money is for "NA" to produce a big TV deal to share here. That's the only way that both SL and Perez have spoken about TWP enriching the game here. So "when" TWP get in SL which NATV company is going to shower us with a multi-million NATV deal so they can show an English team in Canadian jerseys play 10 other English clubs and a French club in a game that the North American audience haven't really heard of and nobody plays there?

For you and me brother our worlds may revolve around Rugby League, but not North Americans. Even TWP "fans" are more interested in the Beer tents than the games.  Free tickets all round eh?

Edited by The Parksider
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10 hours ago, Pulga said:

Look at the Super League winners list. You'll see that 3 teams have bought themselves to the top since the beginning. 

Truely bizarre that you could type that out with a serious face.

You obviously have no idea how the salary cap works here in the UK Pulga, and your statement is quite topical, for only on Monday this week on a BBC podcast Jon Wilkins - 16 years at St Helens - was talking about this very subject, he stated that clubs could only pay out X amount to a designated ceiling, the earing power of individual's was curtailed by this method, he said so therefore the better player's would be drawn to the club's who would be expected to win trophies, he himself could have earned more being a top earner at a much lesser club, but the differential he earned would not be enough to entice him away. He said this is why there has been so few winners of the gongs on offer, player's want to win things and because their earing capacity is not much greater at any other club in the SL they will choose a successful club to sign for and forego a few extra £'s.

A few seasons back when Leeds were winning the GF regularly, in the post match interview Kevin Sinfield (still in his kit) stated that the Leeds player's choice was to stay together as a team albeit they could earn more at other club's if they left, but they were happy to take less money to be successful together.

So my statement previously is not so bizarre when explained by someone at the pointy end. 

Edited by Harry Stottle

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I guess its time again. 

“Toronto and David Argyle are a well-managed operation,” Lenagan answers, without getting into contactual specifics.“If they get promoted into Super League, there’s no negatives from our viewpoint."

David also recognises that the way in which the rights have been negotiated previously are not necessarily the right way for the collective, going forward.

“David’s a very sensible man, we are very sensible people. We will work it out. We want the clubs to have the benefit of any rights,” Ian continues. “How you carve it up, between Toronto, North America and England, doesn’t really matter.”

“Super League will be an international competition in five years’ time,” Lenagan said.

“I believe at that time, as well as the English clubs, we’ll have Toulouse, we’ll have Perpignan, we’ll have Toronto, we’ll probably have New York within that time scale"

Elstone told Mirror Sport: “When I started in the job, I talked about the need for us to be young, confident and ambitious.

“I couldn’t think of three better words to describe Toronto. It felt young, bright and relevant 

“They’ve created an environment and atmosphere we should capture and promote across the whole of Super League.

“I’m certain we can all learn from how they’ve connected with a younger audience – the one so critical for Super League’s future.

“It’s a vision created by owner David Argyle and it was good to spend time with him.

“Repeating the attributes I think are really important for Super League, he’s certainly ambitious – for the Wolfpack and the sport; he’s confident – really believes he and his team can deliver; and it’s young – he’s talking with, and bringing into the club, a demographic the sport has to connect with.

“Toronto is a fantastic city, and one that anyone would enjoy visiting"

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24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You obviously have no idea how the salary cap works here in the UK Pulga, and your statement is quite topical, for only on Monday this week on a BBC podcast Jon Wilkins - 16 years at St Helens - was talking about this very subject, he stated that clubs could only pay out X amount to a designated ceiling, the earing power of individual's was curtailed by this method, he said so therefore the better player's would be drawn to the club's who would be expected to win trophies, he himself could have earned more being a top earner at a much lesser club, but the differential he earned would not be enough to entice him away. He said this is why there has been so few winners of the gongs on offer, player's want to win things and because their earing capacity is not much greater at any other club in the SL they will choose a successful club to sign for and forego a few extra £'s.

A few seasons back when Leeds were winning the GF regularly, in the post match interview Kevin Sinfield (still in his kit) stated that the Leeds player's choice was to stay together as a team albeit they could earn more at other club's if they left, but they were happy to take less money to be successful together.

So my statement previously is not so bizarre when explained by someone at the pointy end. 

I totally agree with this. My own club has played the salary cap perfectly for at least 15 years. 

The problem is that the cap is so low that any financial gain to be made by moving to another, potentially less successful club, will be relatively small. If you're on a £115k contract at Saints and Wakefield offer you £130k, that extra 15k just isn't enough for most players to consider the switch despite that probably being one of the best paid Wakefield players.

Its ironic that the same reason smaller clubs can't offer higher contracts is the very same salary cap they choose to have to make the competition more even.

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34 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You obviously have no idea how the salary cap works here in the UK Pulga, and your statement is quite topical, for only on Monday this week on a BBC podcast Jon Wilkins - 16 years at St Helens - was talking about this very subject, he stated that clubs could only pay out X amount to a designated ceiling, the earing power of individual's was curtailed by this method, he said so therefore the better player's would be drawn to the club's who would be expected to win trophies, he himself could have earned more being a top earner at a much lesser club, but the differential he earned would not be enough to entice him away. He said this is why there has been so few winners of the gongs on offer, player's want to win things and because their earing capacity is not much greater at any other club in the SL they will choose a successful club to sign for and forego a few extra £'s.

A few seasons back when Leeds were winning the GF regularly, in the post match interview Kevin Sinfield (still in his kit) stated that the Leeds player's choice was to stay together as a team albeit they could earn more at other club's if they left, but they were happy to take less money to be successful together.

So my statement previously is not so bizarre when explained by someone at the pointy end. 

How is that different to the NRL except that all clubs at the NRL are able to spend to the cap?

NRL clubs actually have a minimum they can spend.


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47 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

So how does that money "come from NA" then Tommy? How do we get that money? Not from North American fans through the turnstiles. The only way we can get that money is for "NA" to produce a big TV deal to share here. That's the only way that both SL and Perez have spoken about TWP enriching the game here. So "when" TWP get in SL which NATV company is going to shower us with a multi-million NATV deal so they can show an English team in Canadian jerseys play 10 other English clubs and a French club in a game that the North American audience haven't really heard of and nobody plays there?

For you and me brother our worlds may revolve around Rugby League, but not North Americans. Even TWP "fans" are more interested in the Beer tents than the games.  Free tickets all round eh?

That's not necessarily the only way is it. North American financial investment in the game could actually be found through a variety of ways. TV as you say is the obvious - but that will have to happen on a SL/RFL level. Sponsorship - including both increased monetary value and brand associations. Direct investment - rich people sometimes like to have a toy to splash their money on, football and RU certainly have it, in that world RL is relatively cheap. 

As for the fans being more interested in the beer tents than the rugby that's no different to a lot of fans over here. My mum only comes to certain games largely because she enjoys the day out with the family, I've got friends who's main sports are not RL but come to games because they enjoy the whole experience including the drinking before during and after, I'm sure some people will only watch their own team exclusively. I'm the same myself with other sports, Boxing, football, Cricket and RU in the past year for example. But the crowds don't lie; we're going to have to come to the conclusion soon that at least some of them just like rugby and their team.

We are a rarity in the UK that we go watch RL because we love the game as spectacle, there's no point forcing our own purity on others. 

The point about a Canadian jerseys is essential. This isn't us playing on the road games asking people to adopt a pre-existing club from the other side of the world. This is Torontonians having their own team that play for their city and go half way across the world to do it - for as long as that works they'll continue to attract positive press. 

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7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I totally agree with this. My own club has played the salary cap perfectly for at least 15 years. 

The problem is that the cap is so low that any financial gain to be made by moving to another, potentially less successful club, will be relatively small. If you're on a £115k contract at Saints and Wakefield offer you £130k, that extra 15k just isn't enough for most players to consider the switch despite that probably being one of the best paid Wakefield players.

Its ironic that the same reason smaller clubs can't offer higher contracts is the very same salary cap they choose to have to make the competition more even.

Whilst in principle that is true, in practice it isn't for a couple of reasons. Not least that many clubs in SL aren't restricted by the SC but by their own financial position.

Clubs can 'buy success' because in reality only a few are in with a chance because only a few can afford to be. 

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Unless Toronto enter a Reserve team or an Academy then they are limited to 40 Players. Due to the Salary Cap those players will be on the same money at Toronto as they would with any other Club in SL. But at any other Club there would be far less time travelling to and from airports, waiting in departure lounges and flying......therefore it's preferable to sign with another SL team unless Toronto is the only signing option or you are one of 2 x Marque Players, so the only way Toronto can buy big is if they outspend the other clubs on 2 players out of a full squad......and that is nowhere near guaranteeing success. Therefore TWP cannot buy themselves to the top, and as said earlier, actually are at a disadvantage in SL as it currently stands...... 

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41 minutes ago, Pulga said:

How is that different to the NRL except that all clubs at the NRL are able to spend to the cap?

NRL clubs actually have a minimum they can spend.

And there is the differential Pulga, they have much more to spend, it works in the NRL a club could finish bottom one year and potentially be GF winners the next, IMHO the best paid people at the NRL clubs should be the person who is in charge of player recruitment along with the coach, the recruiter to get the player's there and the coach to gel and get the best from his charges, what I said in relation to and how it works in the SL was not my thoughts but the words of someone who has expierenced the situation for a long time, don't shoot the messanger, please.

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6 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Unless Toronto enter a Reserve team or an Academy then they are limited to 40 Players. Due to the Salary Cap those players will be on the same money at Toronto as they would with any other Club in SL. But at any other Club there would be far less time travelling to and from airports, waiting in departure lounges and flying......therefore it's preferable to sign with another SL team unless Toronto is the only signing option or you are one of 2 x Marque Players, so the only way Toronto can buy big is if they outspend the other clubs on 2 players out of a full squad......and that is nowhere near guaranteeing success. Therefore TWP cannot buy themselves to the top, and as said earlier, actually are at a disadvantage in SL as it currently stands...... 

That's a fair summary. Although I wonder, do all Superleague clubs spend the basic salary cap currently? London certainly don't and I doubt HKR do either - any others? 

If Toronto paid the full cap plus two NRL level marquees, then on paper at least, I reckon that's a top 6 squad, even accounting for the travel 'discount'. 

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19 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Unless Toronto enter a Reserve team or an Academy then they are limited to 40 Players. Due to the Salary Cap those players will be on the same money at Toronto as they would with any other Club in SL. But at any other Club there would be far less time travelling to and from airports, waiting in departure lounges and flying......therefore it's preferable to sign with another SL team unless Toronto is the only signing option or you are one of 2 x Marque Players, so the only way Toronto can buy big is if they outspend the other clubs on 2 players out of a full squad......and that is nowhere near guaranteeing success. Therefore TWP cannot buy themselves to the top, and as said earlier, actually are at a disadvantage in SL as it currently stands...... 

But Toronto also has Toronto. You don’t get Toronto on the M62.

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15 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Unless Toronto enter a Reserve team or an Academy then they are limited to 40 Players. Due to the Salary Cap those players will be on the same money at Toronto as they would with any other Club in SL. But at any other Club there would be far less time travelling to and from airports, waiting in departure lounges and flying......therefore it's preferable to sign with another SL team unless Toronto is the only signing option or you are one of 2 x Marque Players, so the only way Toronto can buy big is if they outspend the other clubs on 2 players out of a full squad......and that is nowhere near guaranteeing success. Therefore TWP cannot buy themselves to the top, and as said earlier, actually are at a disadvantage in SL as it currently stands...... 

Although Toronto couldn't spend over the salary cap they can go via loopholes which aren't legally available here, as Glasgow rangers found out. 

Also if they pay in can$ the exchange rates and cost of living being cheaper means people could see salary increase without breaking the cap.

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4 minutes ago, Copa said:

But Toronto also has Toronto. You don’t get Toronto on the M62.

I bet they don't have a Wetherspoon though...

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40 minutes ago, North but south said:

Although Toronto couldn't spend over the salary cap they can go via loopholes which aren't legally available here, as Glasgow rangers found out. 

Also if they pay in can$ the exchange rates and cost of living being cheaper means people could see salary increase without breaking the cap.

Loopholes are only good until they get sealed up, if we take it to the extreme irrespective of geographical position Toronto Wolfpack RLFC are just that, another RLFC, I do not believe they should get any special dispensations that would allow them an advantage in the recruitment of their playing roster over and above any other club, not a raised cap, or being allowed more overseas players as permitted by the rules of the comp (obviously TWP would have to be given the same respect as if they were a British club) it should be a level playing field for all the participating clubs, and I would include both Catalan and Tolouse should they be successful in gaining promotion, and before anyone states that TWP do not get any central funding they well knew that would be the case in their discussions before they decided to enter the British competition, it was one of the terms and conditions.

Edited by Harry Stottle

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