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SL needs to bring back the middle 8's

sweaty craiq

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Dave T

Dave T

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Posted

Other factors like injuries, loss of form, signings etc. are a natural part of the game.

A team choosing to put out a team that is likely to lose is not. People can spin it all how they like, there are RFL Operational Rules around full strength teams. Saints had lost only 2 games before yesterday, and took a good hiding at the worst team in the comp, according to the table.

I'm not sure how it should be policed, but this shouldn't be dismissed as normal or perfectly natural.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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6 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

If Hull KR/Leeds etc go down, it’s because of their own failings over the course of a season and not because of other results.

I'm not sure you have fully grasped how a league system works.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Oliver Clothesoff

Oliver Clothesoff

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Always found rules around “weakened teams” to be laughable. What’s the barometer for weak? And whose the adjudicator of this? 

Surely if a club has players on their books, they deem them good enough to be part of their club and therefore it’s up to them to play who they want, when they want? 

Its not as though Saints threw in a load of ringers signed from Pilks Recs on Wednesday. 

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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9 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Always found rules around “weakened teams” to be laughable. What’s the barometer for weak? And whose the adjudicator of this? 

I don't know, it's a wild idea but we could try common sense.

You have followed Rugby League a long time, which of these two St Helens teams from their last two outings would you say was the weakest?

This one against London...

 

Jack Welsby

Adam Swift 

Matthew Costello 

Josh Simm 

Regan Grace 

Joseph Paulo 

Danny Richardson 

Louie McCarthy- Scarsbrook

Aaron Smith 

Matthew Lees 

Joe Batchelor 

James Bentley 

Morgan Knowles 

 

Subs

Kyle Amor 

Jack Ashworth 

Josh Eaves 

Callum Hazzard


or this one against Wigan...

Lachlan Coote 

Tommy Makinson 

Kevin Naiqama 

Mark Percival 

Regan Grace 

Theo Fages 

Jonny Lomax

Alex Walmsley 

James Bentley 

Luke Thompson 

Morgan Knowles

Louie McCarthy- Scarsbrook 

Dominique Peyroux 

 

Subs

Kyle Amor 

Matthew Lees 

Jack Ashworth 

Aaron Smith

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

If a team gets relegated it’s because they haven’t gained enough points to stay up, first and foremost.

It’s genuinely that simple. 

Yes, I know.  And to stay up, the points they have gained are more the team(s) below them... hence the other results actually mattering as well.

It's genuinely that simple.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Oliver Clothesoff

Oliver Clothesoff

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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I don't know, it's a wild idea but we could try common sense.

You have followed Rugby League a long time, which of these two St Helens teams from their last two outings would you say was the weakest?

This one against London...

 

 

Jack Welsby

Adam Swift 

Matthew Costello 

Josh Simm 

Regan Grace 

Joseph Paulo 

Danny Richardson 

Louie McCarthy- Scarsbrook

Aaron Smith 

Matthew Lees 

Joe Batchelor 

James Bentley 

Morgan Knowles 

 

Subs

Kyle Amor 

Jack Ashworth 

Josh Eaves 

Callum Hazzard


or this one against Wigan...

Lachlan Coote 

Tommy Makinson 

Kevin Naiqama 

Mark Percival 

Regan Grace 

Theo Fages 

Jonny Lomax

Alex Walmsley 

James Bentley 

Luke Thompson 

Morgan Knowles

Louie McCarthy- Scarsbrook 

Dominique Peyroux 

 

Subs

Kyle Amor 

Matthew Lees 

Jack Ashworth 

Aaron Smith

So you want teams to name the same seventeen each week then?

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Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
Just now, Oliver Clothesoff said:

So you want teams to name the same seventeen each week then?

Nice sidestep.

Go on... which team is weaker?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Nobody expected London to beat Wigan, Leeds, Wakefield etc, is that fair?

I'm not talking about what is fair or not.  I am talking about whether league leaders St Helens sending a weakened team to bottom team London has effected the competition.  I find the idea that you would think it has not had an effect bizarre.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Oliver Clothesoff

Oliver Clothesoff

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Just now, Dunbar said:

Nice sidestep.

Go on... which team is weaker?

That’s my point made there, who is the adjudicator to determine “weaker teams”? Who is the person or people that can tell seasoned Super League coaches who they can and cannot pick week from week. It’s a laughable ruling really. I’ve always found this the case in RL and Football, when it’s happened.

I wouldn’t say either was weak. Yesterday saw seven players in it that are likely to face Halifax on Saturday, James Bentley has played the last 5, Aaron Smith is now on double figures for appearances for the year, Adam Swift is on 100+ appearances and not far from 100 tries, Danny Richardson was last year’s team of the year scrum half, Jack Welsby is a talented young man who’s played six games this year at 18 years old, Matty Costello has played four games in the past month for Saints, Josh Eaves and Josh Simm are playing most weeks for Leigh and performing well by all accounts and Joe Batchelor has played for York and Leigh in the Championship this year as he steps up his career from part-time player to Super League player. 

All of these players are contracted to St Helens and should therefore be allowed to play when called upon, like yesterday. 

The only thing that could be deemed unfair is the fixture itself. That was the third time this year the two sides meet, others only meet twice, the imbalance in the fixture list is where there’s issues, not in a side resting players ahead of a key month in the season. 

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Oliver Clothesoff

Oliver Clothesoff

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9 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I'm not talking about what is fair or not.  I am talking about whether league leaders St Helens sending a weakened team to bottom team London has effected the competition.  I find the idea that you would think it has not had an effect bizarre.

Every game has an effect on the competition. This one was no different. That’s how it works.

Didn't see this much drama when London sent a “weakened” team to Halifax in the cup. 

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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1 minute ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Every game has an effect on the competition. This one was no different. That’s how it works.

Didn't see this much drama when London sent a “weakened” team to Halifax in the cup. 

OK, let me just ask you a simple question.

In your opinion, has St Helen's decision to take a weakened team to London had an effect on the relegation battle?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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2 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

No. The result did. 

You are being quite slippery on this aren't you.  I wonder why.

So, a follow up question. 

In your opinion, did the team selection have an effect on the result which, as you say, had an effect on the relegation battle?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Oliver Clothesoff

Oliver Clothesoff

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5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

You are being quite slippery on this aren't you.  I wonder why.

So, a follow up question. 

In your opinion, did the team selection have an effect on the result which, as you say, had an effect on the relegation battle?

No, I’m not. 

I just think that this is a non-story and teams are well within their rights to play who they want each week as long as anything illicit or underhand isn’t going on, which in this case, it wasn’t. 

Who knows what the result would have been on another day with slightly different teams for both sides? That’s the beauty of sport. London have beaten first choice seventeens from Wigan, Leeds, Catalans and Wakefield this year, so it’s a genuine mystery as to what would have happened in a different situation. 

Warrington lost to Cas yesterday (while playing a relatively strong side). That was a shock. They were well within their rights to play who they did and they lost. 

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Padge

Padge

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Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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Just now, Oliver Clothesoff said:

No, I’m not. 

I just think that this is a non-story and teams are well within their rights to play who they want each week as long as anything illicit or underhand isn’t going on, which in this case, it wasn’t. 

Who knows what the result would have been on another day with slightly different teams for both sides? That’s the beauty of sport. London have beaten first choice seventeens from Wigan, Leeds, Catalans and Wakefield this year, so it’s a genuine mystery as to what would have happened in a different situation. 

Warrington lost to Cas yesterday (while playing a relatively strong side). That was a shock. They were well within their rights to play who they did and they lost. 

I'm not trying to say Saints did anything wrong, I am just to establish whether you think that their team selection had any effect on the result.

You are saying that you do not know if the the team selection had an effect on the result or not and I will take that on face value. 

I am surprised you think this though as the team that Saints selected was without 9 or 10 of their best players but if that's what you think then that's what you think.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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9 minutes ago, Padge said:

Capture.JPG.7785238865f185eb93942b4d5b7449de.JPG

That's annoyingly vague!

I guess the team selection could fall under this sentence.. 'all players and officials shall take all reasonable and permissible measures and give their best efforts in an attempt to win each Match ans/or of obtaining the best possible score in each Match'

As the coaching staff are not on the pitch, are their 'best efforts' defined as selecting the strongest team possible.

I don't know and it is very much down to interpretation.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Oliver Clothesoff

Oliver Clothesoff

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1 minute ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It's it fair that London play Saints 3 times when others play them twice?

Is it fair that Hull KR get 2 home fixture against them compared to their 1?

 

This is the issue here, rather than anyone choosing to use their squad accordingly. 

It’ll be interesting come the end of season to see the loop fixtures of those in and around the bottom of the table and how the results went. 

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Chrispmartha

Chrispmartha

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5 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It's it fair that London play Saints 3 times when others play them twice?

Is it fair that Hull KR get 2 home fixture against them compared to their 1?

 

Of course it isn't, the system (whilst better than the middle 8s) is totally flawed if the clubs want loop fixtures the there shouldn't be relegation, it doesn't make sense.

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Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC

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2 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Of course it isn't, the system (whilst better than the middle 8s) is totally flawed if the clubs want loop fixtures the there shouldn't be relegation, it doesn't make sense.

Or a play off, much like the top of the table.

The race to avoid the bottom is more interesting partly because it culminates first.

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deluded pom?

deluded pom?

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49 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

That's annoyingly vague!

I guess the team selection could fall under this sentence.. 'all players and officials shall take all reasonable and permissible measures and give their best efforts in an attempt to win each Match ans/or of obtaining the best possible score in each Match'

As the coaching staff are not on the pitch, are their 'best efforts' defined as selecting the strongest team possible.

I don't know and it is very much down to interpretation.

Basically, have you got enough players to fulfil the fixture and if you have make sure they are trying.

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Dunbar

Dunbar

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14 minutes ago, deluded pom? said:

Basically, have you got enough players to fulfil the fixture and if you have make sure they are trying.

As I say, open to interpretation... could 'obtaining the best possible score in each Match' not also be extended to picking the best side for each match?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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