Relegation

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

We can when we are addressing the narrow point being made that relegation increases attendances. It quite clearly doesnt.

If we however want to argue a different metric, that it increases interest for other fans then fine. Even if we accept the premise that it does. What value is that to the game? How can a passing interest as a neutral be monetized or leveraged?

Increased viewing figures for the broadcaster 

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

As I pointed out before , let's just all play friendlies , who cares who wins SL ? 

Nope I haven't said their is not a need to have a healthy wider public and media interest, feeding through to more commercial revenues.

Never-the -less on a personal view unless its the team I support I don't care who wins SL.  I may on the day decide to prefer one team or another for whatever nebulous reason that may come in my head. Generally I don't give a hoot who wins.

My comment is purely and to repeat on why the main attendees of a game  view a game.   If its expected to be a good spectacle in its own right then people would attend. If they are not then it says something about the spectacle.  Thats not to say more media hype around the game that may put a some more on the gate... but if the majority don't think the spectacle is worth watching and hence paying irrespective of league positions then what does it say about our average game.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well it's not worked out brilliantly at Widnes or leigh. Being in the top league didnt work out for fax or oldham or workington either.

The top flight is difficult to operate at. Being able to operate at both SL and championship level is proving exceedingly difficult. Almost impossible.

We are seeing clubs 'testing out that theory' and seeing negative results with alarming regularity. 

You missed out Bradford 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Should super league be run in the best interests of the championship even if it is to their own detriment?

If your answer is yes, there is a duty owed to the wider game, the question would be, in what way is the championship run in the best interest of SL? What is their contribution  to the wider game that is to their detriment?

Currently it would be that they operate as an incubator for potential SL teams both Heartland and not as well as a high standard place for SL clubs to loan players to to get experience. I've got to go to work now so thats just off the top of my head.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Does it?

Does relegation (lets not forget that the positive 'promotion' side of that coin isnt interesting enough to get a proper tv deal) in the years that it is actually a proper competition, contribute more tv viewers? Does it contribute enough to leverage more money out of a broadcaster?

Let's not forget, as much as i want London to stay up, if not for sts fielding a weakened side twice, this 'relegation battle' would pretty much be a foregone conclusion at this stage

Don't know , I suppose we'd have to ask SKY ?

[Marty Funkhouser]

4 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

We can when we are addressing the narrow point being made that relegation increases attendances. It quite clearly doesnt.

If we however want to argue a different metric, that it increases interest for other fans then fine. Even if we accept the premise that it does. What value is that to the game? How can a passing interest as a neutral be monetized or leveraged?

Value to (ever decreasing) sponsors is the obvious one.

[Oxford]

12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

There should be no right to simply take from the pie of a year or so because the bounce of the ball went your way one year.

So your idea is chuck'em out even if they played well enough to stay in and even if they haven't earned the right to saty according to the rules they get to remain because they add to the pie.

So why have a competition at all?

[GUBRATS]

27 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 There should be no right to simply take from the pie of a year or so because the bounce of the ball went your way one year. 

Isn't that how half the teams got there in the 1st place ?

Let alone the broken promises 

[Marty Funkhouser]

52 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

How does it create more value for sponsors?

Wow...

7 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

Let's put another slant on it then.

Measure all national (and local) newspaper column inches, media interest before and after, TV reports, figures and appearances etc etc etc connected to promotion/relegation matches for example Hull KR v Salford 2016 or  Toronto v London 2018 or Wakefield v Bradford 2015 against similar late season normal league games in a non-relegation season.

The difference is exponential.

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Would be interesting to see the impact of the taking away of promotion from the championship too. A far more devastating blow I'd guess.

Ahh the dreaded closed shop Tommy, as in any job anybody with anything about them desires to better themselves, it is no different from those ambitious clubs and their fans of the Championship take away that opportunity and watch it decline.

Those guy's who buy into the Championship being the Owners are mostly local lads who have made good, they made their money because they are winners, they saw an opportunity and went for it, if that is in one's make-up they never lose that will and determination but they can only achieve 'The Prize' if it is available.

Take away from these guys in their Rugby League quest a passageway to the top and that may take them and their money out of the game, I know it would with me. Clubs will go into decline the Championship will suffer and consequently the game will suffer, not just at pro level, if the focal point of attention is low in the communities the amateur game will feel the pinch,  it won't happen overnight, but it will wither and decay over time.

Those who write on these pages who are of a SL persuasion and say let the Championship go and sort their own league out have literally no idea what they are talking about, they can't see further than their funding payout. 

[GUBRATS]

8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I mean that's a bit of circular reasoning, Im not arguing about 'earning the right to stay because of the rules' because the rules would be different

But the competition isn't about not being the worst, nor not being relegated, so the reason why you have a competition is to see who wins. 

Why is the game subsidising some clubs to operate above the level where they can pay their own way and contribute>?

So dump the ones who aren't 

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Why is the game subsidising some clubs to operate above the level where they can pay their own way and contribute>?

Because they provide opposition (and therefore content) for those that do?

[Tommygilf]

9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Ahh the dreaded closed shop Tommy, as in any job anybody with anything about them desires to better themselves, it is no different from those ambitious clubs and their fans of the Championship take away that opportunity and watch it decline.

Those guy's who buy into the Championship being the Owners are mostly local lads who have made good, they made their money because they are winners, they saw an opportunity and went for it, if that is in one's make-up they never lose that will and determination but they can only achieve 'The Prize' if it is available.

Take away from these guys in their Rugby League quest a passageway to the top and that may take them and their money out of the game, I know it would with me. Clubs will go into decline the Championship will suffer and consequently the game will suffer, not just at pro level, if the focal point of attention is low in the communities the amateur game will feel the pinch,  it won't happen overnight, but it will wither and decay over time.

Those who write on these pages who are of a SL persuasion and say let the Championship go and sort their own league out have literally no idea what they are talking about, they can't see further than their funding payout. 

Exactly Harry. These owners are 9 times out of 10 not in it for the money they're in it because they love their team and would do so in the 3rd division or even lower in future, so long as the route upwards is open and is achievable. 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

We’ve not had a structure change for about a year, now isn’t the time for another. 

We have a battle for 2nd, a battle for 5th and a battle to stay in the competition. 

We’re doing fine lads, keep your daft ideas to yourselves. 

[Old Frightful]

On 18/08/2019 at 07:37, Oxford said:

I'm not very keen on people being happy someone goes down either.

Just as well that you don't live in Hull then.

And, for the record, if Hull FC were struggling and Hull KR were out of danger, there would still be plenty of folk happy to see a Rugby League team from Hull get relegated.

Just not as many as the current situation.

[Harry Stottle]

41 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Because they provide opposition (and therefore content) for those that do?

I have a good idea where my clubs sits on the order of merit, we are no better or worse than some of those basement dwellers in SL nor are we any better or worse than some of those at the top of the championship, in fact I have had an opinion for quite some time that there are two distinct divisions in both the SL and the Championship and if the middle say 12/14 clubs were grouped in a division it would be super competitive. 

There is no escaping the fact Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Leeds (no doubt they will return, they are to rich not to do so their problem has been they have not invested wisely) these clubs have spoiled it in recent years and clubs like Hull FC and possibly Cas are not that far away from them but have not quite made it at the top table but seemingly are better equipped for a long term challenge than other SL member clubs, so as you say are you in agreement that the other members of SL just make up the numbers? 

So whats the answer? 12/14 teams - who we could deem as non contributors - below the top 4 or 6 clubs to form their own much more level competitive league, but wouldn't  that be penalising the success of the "winners"or bring the competition closer by means testing the funding awarded i.e. the richest get the least and so on, or reduce the cap to really spread the talent about? 

Obviously none of the above will happen, so it is imperative that P&R is maintained, the SL would be the same old, same old year on year Lancashire's big 3 and Leeds are not going to be replaced long term by anyone in the distant forseeable future there may be an upstart who could win something but they will never join the on going momentum of the rich 4, Simply put SL needs P&R as a distraction from the norm. 

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

We’ve not had a structure change for about a year, now isn’t the time for another. 

We have a battle for 2nd, a battle for 5th and a battle to stay in the competition. 

We’re doing fine lads, keep your daft ideas to yourselves. 

We ain't had promotion yet Ollie, Leneghan, McManus and Moran said that the promoted team will have to hit certain criteria to be allowed entry, we are less than 8 weeks away from a club gaining promotion and no ground rules have yet been set. 

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

Just as well that you don't live in Hull then.

And, for the record, if Hull FC were struggling and Hull KR were out of danger, there would still be plenty of folk happy to see a Rugby League team from Hull get relegated.

Just not as many as the current situation.

Is that based on crowd figures so about 11,000 to 8,000 in FC's favour?

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

30 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

We’ve not had a structure change for about a year, now isn’t the time for another. 

We have a battle for 2nd, a battle for 5th and a battle to stay in the competition. 

We’re doing fine lads, keep your daft ideas to yourselves. 

Why are attendances so low this year?

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Why are attendances so low this year?

Simple Kev, the game is not as popular as it was, the trend will continue, I will carry on going but I bet we all know people who use to go but can no longer be bothered.

PS and there is also natural wastage, the faithful for years and years have either expired or are to infirmed to attend, its the younger generation who are not filling enough gaps with their 'too many distraction's"

[Dunbar]

10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Ahh the dreaded closed shop Tommy, as in any job anybody with anything about them desires to better themselves, it is no different from those ambitious clubs and their fans of the Championship take away that opportunity and watch it decline.

I have come round to this line of thinking myself.  I was a supporter of franchising when it was introduced and felt that it was a time when the sport was really stepping up in the way t was run.  In retrospect that was because he had a genuine world class sports/business leader at the helm.

I was a fan of franchising because I felt it was a way to encourage clubs to invest - in both infrastructure and player development - by taking away the fear of relegation and the loss of revenue.

Looking at the sport now, some years after franchising ended, the clubs that continue to invest in these things are the one's that are seeing the rewards.  Put simply, the best run clubs are the best run clubs.

Realistically, even if we kept franchising for decades we were never going to see clubs like Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester etc... it was still going to be the historic and established clubs.

Let's allow well run and ambitious clubs from the lower divisions have aspirations for the top table and enjoy the ride.

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have a good idea where my clubs sits on the order of merit, we are no better or worse than some of those basement dwellers in SL nor are we any better or worse than some of those at the top of the championship, in fact I have had an opinion for quite some time that there are two distinct divisions in both the SL and the Championship and if the middle say 12/14 clubs were grouped in a division it would be super competitive. 

There is no escaping the fact Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Leeds (no doubt they will return, they are to rich not to do so their problem has been they have not invested wisely) these clubs have spoiled it in recent years and clubs like Hull FC and possibly Cas are not that far away from them but have not quite made it at the top table but seemingly are better equipped for a long term challenge than other SL member clubs, so as you say are you in agreement that the other members of SL just make up the numbers? 

So whats the answer? 12/14 teams - who we could deem as non contributors - below the top 4 or 6 clubs to form their own much more level competitive league, but wouldn't  that be penalising the success of the "winners"or bring the competition closer by means testing the funding awarded i.e. the richest get the least and so on, or reduce the cap to really spread the talent about? 

Obviously none of the above will happen, so it is imperative that P&R is maintained, the SL would be the same old, same old year on year Lancashire's big 3 and Leeds are not going to be replaced long term by anyone in the distant forseeable future there may be an upstart who could win something but they will never join the on going momentum of the rich 4, Simply put SL needs P&R as a distraction from the norm. 

I have to agree with a lot of what you say Harry. Although I would add that expansion clubs, particularly Toronto and Catalans who are as financially strong (if not stronger than) the big 4 are outside that middle 12 or so clubs and can break into that top tier at a consistent level.  

The relative closeness of that middle group of teams (and how it is easier for clubs outside that bracket to reach that stage) is the primary argument I have against a closed shop. 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

36 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

We ain't had promotion yet Ollie, Leneghan, McManus and Moran said that the promoted team will have to hit certain criteria to be allowed entry, we are less than 8 weeks away from a club gaining promotion and no ground rules have yet been set. 

That you’re aware of. Just because it’s not been reported in League Express, it doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. 

25 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Why are attendances so low this year?

Compared with what exactly? 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Compared with previous years 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

20 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Compared with previous years 

1,166,425 watched Super League games in 2018, 1,291,760 have watched Super League games this year and we’re a few rounds from the season ending. That’s an increase of 10.75%. 

We’ve also broken the attendance record for Super League this year.