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Essai Machine

Holbrook's Saints - Ferrari or Vauxhall Astra ?

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15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But apart from all those differences.....

Go on, just one more

The league leaders are the only team guaranteed to play all their semi finals at home.

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1 hour ago, Eddie said:

If Super League is so terrible, and by far and away the best team are only that because everyone else is even worse, why do you watch it?

Also the LLS isn’t decided on early season form, it’s the best team over the full season. Saints are still in smoking form, they’ve lost against Catalans and Wire this season, and the reserves have lost against the Broncos twice, nobody else bar Salford in one game has been close. 

Where did I say its terrible ? Try reading the text instead of projecting your own ideas.

The LLS is decided on early form - are Wigan going to win it this year after their poor start to the season ? No

And if they are in "smoking form" why did St Helens get beaten on Saturday ?

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45 minutes ago, Essai Machine said:

Where did I say its terrible ? Try reading the text instead of projecting your own ideas.

The LLS is decided on early form - are Wigan going to win it this year after their poor start to the season ? No

And if they are in "smoking form" why did St Helens get beaten on Saturday ?

Losing one game after winning again and again at a canter doesn’t mean they’re not still in form.  If they lost two or three in a row then ok, but they haven’t. 

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It means we have a stupid play off system that has cost teams being crowned Champions on many occasions.

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18 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Losing one game after winning again and again at a canter doesn’t mean they’re not still in form.  If they lost two or three in a row then ok, but they haven’t. 

Try reading the top bit again . It suggests that Saints were never as good as their league position suggests - which is why they've failed to win a major prize in the last 2 years . hth .

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36 minutes ago, Essai Machine said:

Try reading the top bit again . It suggests that Saints were never as good as their league position suggests - which is why they've failed to win a major prize in the last 2 years . hth .

The last two years are irrelevant, this season they have been easily the best team. If you don’t think they are the best team this season so far then that’s fine, I assume most people would disagree though. 

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39 minutes ago, Eddie said:

If you don’t think they are the best team this season so far then that’s fine, I assume most people would disagree though. 

Not on this post they don't . In fact you're the only one who's defended Saint's impotence .

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Hmmm can’t remember how it works exactly but don’t Sts only have to win one game to make the final. So at a minimum they play 2 games to be champs, or, if they lose the first, max 3.

We also have the return of the week off conundrum as well 🙂

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2 minutes ago, TBone said:

Hmmm can’t remember how it works exactly but don’t Sts only have to win one game to make the final. So at a minimum they play 2 games to be champs, or, if they lose the first, max 3.

We also have the return of the week off conundrum as well 🙂

Correct. Team 1 needs to win one game to get to the Grand Final, teams 2 and 3 two games and teams 4 and 5 three games.

The odds break down as follows:

If all matches have the same odds to win, then Seed 1 has 37.5% to be champion; Seed 2 and 3 have 25% to be champion; Seed 4 and 5 have 6.25%.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_five_play-offs

In reality, team 2 has home advantage in week one of the play offs over team 3 and team 4 have home advantage over team 5 and so their odds are slightly improved. 

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4 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

I don’t know what you really want Saint.  Saints have played some of the best rugby I’ve seen this year.  If your waiting for a perfect team it ain’t going to happen.

Ive seen some comments on here, when Saints have stuffed the opposition, which mention a player dropping a ball or another should’ve made a tackle.  Silly comments expressing disappointment that they haven’t achieved perfection

You’re playing the game, some of your best games will have had plenty of mistakes and you’re exactly right, at Saints level it’s fine margins.  

The one thing that stood out to me was Wires kicking game was spot on, where Saints was just ‘good’.  We ridicule RU booting it about but that, imo, was the main difference in the 2 teams.  Even the best struggle against a good kicking game.

It wasn't me aiming to denigrate my team or demand the perfect team every game. It was more an illustration that we are still a work-in-progress as much as any other team, albeit from a higher starting point than most teams (not all). The idea that we have been firing on all cylinders doesn't hold up to the stated shortcomings, or the progress we have seen in our young players for example, who have played big minutes regularly.

Saints currently top Super League in errors. To me, that indicates a team trying things and targeting long-term improvement rather than being at their peak. The issue is that we haven't learnt how to rein that in when necessary, as shown on Saturday. Wire's kicking game was better, but the biggest difference was Saints making 20 errors to Wire's 4. You cannot compete in 35 degree heat with that.

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1 hour ago, Essai Machine said:

Not on this post they don't . In fact you're the only one who's defended Saint's impotence .

To clarify then, does anyone not think Saints have been the best team so far this season and if not who has been?

Essai who do you think has?

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8 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Does anyone remember Yugos? 

As per Chronicler, made a British Leyland Friday afternoon special look like a quality build, Zastava was the manufacturer IIRC, boxy POS!

As to Saints, some have said that resting was the wrong thing, I honestly don't, they weren't under-cooked they just didn't perform and much of that was down to a superb Warrington team who simply outplayed them, sometimes that happens in one off games. Last year there were reasons why, the same happened ast Hull in '16, Radford failed to rotate and come the backstretch we were absolutely flogged, even Danny Houghton was blowing out his arris after 15 mins in the last game against Warrington at home.

Frankly the system we have is carp, it doesn't reward consistency over the season and Saints fans will have been cock-a-hoop with the way they have been playing. Not only does having a Grand Final play-off system to determine the 'champions' destroy any semblance of importance to the league leaders trophy but it's also damaged immeasurably the CC too. It also extends the season and puts us on the back foot time and again for internationals

IMHO having the GF/play-off system for champions has damaged/weakened the sport as a whole, 

 

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1 hour ago, Eddie said:

To clarify then, does anyone not think Saints have been the best team so far this season and if not who has been?

Essai who do you think has?

Nice attempt to steer the argument in your favour .

This post isn't about which team has been the best so far this season - its about Saints failing to perform at the level their league position suggests they are at .

And to answer your last question its Ilikehavingthelastwordbecauseivelosttheargument united . hth

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2 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

As per Chronicler, made a British Leyland Friday afternoon special look like a quality build, Zastava was the manufacturer IIRC, boxy POS!

As to Saints, some have said that resting was the wrong thing, I honestly don't, they weren't under-cooked they just didn't perform and much of that was down to a superb Warrington team who simply outplayed them, sometimes that happens in one off games. Last year there were reasons why, the same happened ast Hull in '16, Radford failed to rotate and come the backstretch we were absolutely flogged, even Danny Houghton was blowing out his arris after 15 mins in the last game against Warrington at home.

Frankly the system we have is carp, it doesn't reward consistency over the season and Saints fans will have been cock-a-hoop with the way they have been playing. Not only does having a Grand Final play-off system to determine the 'champions' destroy any semblance of importance to the league leaders trophy but it's also damaged immeasurably the CC too. It also extends the season and puts us on the back foot time and again for internationals

IMHO having the GF/play-off system for champions has damaged/weakened the sport as a whole, 

 

Yes what a brainwave.  Remind me why the NRL have a GF/ play off system.. ?

By the way, that would be the most successful most profitable most expansionist RL competition on the planet with huge tv money and audiences.  

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7 hours ago, Essai Machine said:

Nice attempt to steer the argument in your favour .

This post isn't about which team has been the best so far this season - its about Saints failing to perform at the level their league position suggests they are at .

And to answer your last question its Ilikehavingthelastwordbecauseivelosttheargument united . hth

So if saints aren’t performing at the level their first place suggests, someone else must be? Seriously I hate pernickety internet arguments but I just don’t understand what you are saying?  

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I have lost track of the point here, but it might be whether Saints are that good. They have already won a very major prize, and have won many games, so even if they lose every other match they have had a good year.  Holbrook has got the absolute maximum out of that group of players and ensured they reach a high standard most weeks. But, they have their limitations, and looking ahead, if they make so many errors on a dry day you have to wonder how well they are set up for games in early autumn. 

I could see any of FC, Wigan or Wire winning it from here, as in a one off game they all have the firepower and big match winning experience. 

I also wonder whether rotation is sufficient, as opposed to block training to peak for sustained periods. I only know about cycling training, but a week off here and there doesn’t work that well: you are either in a period of sustained fitness, which can last a while but not many months, or else you are building or dipping. They looked to me to be a team off the boil physically on Saturday, while Wire looked like they had trained to peak.

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I've been a Saints fan since the 1960s and have seen the good, bad and ugly during that time. The present team is clearly decent and has benefitted from a good coach. However, I have have said all season that we are a few players short of the finished article. I think some of the squad and I include our recent signings are average at best. (Coote being the exception). We also lack an organiser/ general on the park - someone with ideas who can see a Plan B or C if Plan A isn't working. Added to that our kicking game is not good. In the present system, it doesn't matter if you finish top of the League every year, it's not recognised as a major trophy. Simple as that and we've only won one in 11 years now. A similar comparison in my mind is Rory McIlroy winning the Fed Ex cup in golf. Great achievement but it's not a major and people only remember major winners. So I think we are still a Vauxhall Astra and will only get to be a Ferrari if the Board (in addition to our excellent local talent) start to recruit some decent overseas stars - like Wigan and Warrington are doing.

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13 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

As per Chronicler, made a British Leyland Friday afternoon special look like a quality build, Zastava was the manufacturer IIRC, boxy POS!

As to Saints, some have said that resting was the wrong thing, I honestly don't, they weren't under-cooked they just didn't perform and much of that was down to a superb Warrington team who simply outplayed them, sometimes that happens in one off games. Last year there were reasons why, the same happened ast Hull in '16, Radford failed to rotate and come the backstretch we were absolutely flogged, even Danny Houghton was blowing out his arris after 15 mins in the last game against Warrington at home.

Frankly the system we have is carp, it doesn't reward consistency over the season and Saints fans will have been cock-a-hoop with the way they have been playing. Not only does having a Grand Final play-off system to determine the 'champions' destroy any semblance of importance to the league leaders trophy but it's also damaged immeasurably the CC too. It also extends the season and puts us on the back foot time and again for internationals

IMHO having the GF/play-off system for champions has damaged/weakened the sport as a whole, 

 

Roby, Walmsley, Coote were definitely undercooked though it is unclear how soon they could have played due to coming back from injuries. Our spine was definitely lacking fluency. It's hard to argue that 20 errors were just due to Warrington outplaying us when lots of them were players dropping the ball cold. 

I disagree on the GF/play-off system weakening the sport. It's the biggest showcase the sport has currently. If a team like Saints cannot win high pressure games i.e. finals, we do not deserve to be Champions. 

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5 hours ago, Eddie said:

So if saints aren’t performing at the level their first place suggests, someone else must be? Seriously I hate pernickety internet arguments but I just don’t understand what you are saying?  

So you admit that Saints aren't as good as their league placing suggests , now we're getting somewhere .

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

Roby, Walmsley, Coote were definitely undercooked though it is unclear how soon they could have played due to coming back from injuries. Our spine was definitely lacking fluency. It's hard to argue that 20 errors were just due to Warrington outplaying us when lots of them were players dropping the ball cold. 

I disagree on the GF/play-off system weakening the sport. It's the biggest showcase the sport has currently. If a team like Saints cannot win high pressure games i.e. finals, we do not deserve to be Champions. 

So a team winning it from fifth place miles behind on points deserve to be Champions? Not only does it weaken the sport it skews the sports history books.

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21 minutes ago, Essai Machine said:

So you admit that Saints aren't as good as their league placing suggests , now we're getting somewhere .

 

 

No, I think Saints are the best team this season and therefore 1st place is the correct position. I asked you who you think should be 1st as you don’t think Saints should be there? 

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15 minutes ago, Eddie said:

No, I think Saints are the best team this season and therefore 1st place is the correct position. I asked you who you think should be 1st as you don’t think Saints should be there? 

So why didn't they win on Saturday ?

The original point made in this point was that Saints AREN'T the best team in Super league despite their league position , and this is backed-up by their failing to win the last 2 Challenge Cups or the last (and next ) Grand Final .

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This is probably the most bizarre conversation I have seen on here... and it's up against some stiff competition.

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59 minutes ago, Bod said:

So a team winning it from fifth place miles behind on points deserve to be Champions? Not only does it weaken the sport it skews the sports history books.

Well we've determined the Super League champions with a play-off system for the last 21 years , so your history books must be pretty out of date .

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1 hour ago, Bod said:

So a team winning it from fifth place miles behind on points deserve to be Champions? Not only does it weaken the sport it skews the sports history books.

The champion Rugby League in this country has been decided by a play off for the majority of the sports history.

You can like or dislike the idea of play off's to decide the champion team but history is not one the arguments against it.

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