The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Steve Slater]

18 hours ago, Oldbear said:

This is why deferral to 2022 might be a smart move. Not so many players left and some of those have looked less than sparkling in SL, plus there’s no way Wilkin can be counted on for 2021, given his age and recent injuries. A major rebuilding exercise has to be on the cards, the good thing is McDermott (assuming he stays too), or his replacement will at least be able to choose his squad rather than having someone else’s. The downside is a proper rebuild cannot be rushed, and many prospective signings may need greater reassurance about the financials and off field organization (no more visa fiascos please) before they sign. Giving TWP an extra 12 months improves the chance of them being competitive in SL (let’s face it that’s what TV wants, a competitive league where most games get decided in the final quarter, not first half blow outs), plus it just allows more time for clarification regarding international travel.

Now if SL can’t wait till 2022 (and I think they can), then there’s a potential problem. If LiVolsi can’t wait till 2022 we need to know why and ask what his true motive is. I just don’t see anyway that TWP will be anything like ready for a 2021 start which is less than 6 months away.

If TWP are allowed back next year and are getting hammered every week, not only will it set them back it could also have an adverse affect on Ottowa's future prospects? Much better to come back in 2022 fully prepared.

[Oxford]

7 minutes ago, Steve Slater said:

If TWP are allowed back next year and are getting hammered every week, not only will it set them back it could also have an adverse affect on Ottowa's future prospects? Much better to come back in 2022 fully prepared.

Steve I think this is all over bar't shoutin' the prospect of all 3 NA clubs will be short lived.

On the bad side another failed attempt on the good side forum threads will move on.

I don't think TWP being hammered will affect Ottawa in any way but I believe the rejection and demise of TWP certainly will.

[PhilCarrington]

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

No matter how badly you beg Phil I won't give in...you've made your bed and now you must sleep in it.

Nice attempt to spin. I'm not begging, just asking you to be consistent after you Kayakman said you wouldn't beg. Just another TWP promise ?

[Hello]

Reading this message board as a casual observer I can only conclude that you League fans have a desire for your  already very peripheral sport to contract even further and become even less relevant the way that you take such obvious pleasure in kicking TWP whem they're down.  The recent BBC article summed things up nicely - is league serious about trying to expand its narrow horizons.  Reading this board one has to conclude that the answer is a resounding "no". Shame that most of you don't seem to want to promote your game. I know, I will be met with bla Dee bla Toronto off the field this, Toronto on the field that but you're only trying to fool yourselves.  Without covid they would have continued to invest heavily on promotion of your sport, something that you should have welcomed. Covid has proven the perfect excuse to kick the dying corpse of expansion for the apparently large number of you who don't seem to like the idea of your sport becoming more, instead of even less, popular. You might actually regret this in future as other unnamed sports pull yet further away from you in popularity. Be very careful what you wish for.

 

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

It is completely irrelevant to the moral responsibility of TWP to pay the players, and all other creditors, what they are owed. You are simply deflecting the argument onto others.

I find it difficult to reconcile this with what you say to Robin next., which I pretty much agree with. 

But it is Argyle who is morally - and probably legally - obligated to pay his employees. LiVolsi has no obligation - they aren't his employees. Yet. But he wants them to Be and is willing to pay them and them and other legit creditors, but only under certain conditions that will also allow him to make money, which will allow him to continue to pay 'his' players, just as he does with all the employees of his other successful companies.

[Robin Evans]

20 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

I find it difficult to reconcile this with what you say to Robin next., which I pretty much agree with. 

But it is Argyle who is morally - and probably legally - obligated to pay his employees. LiVolsi has no obligation - they aren't his employees. Yet. But he wants them to Be and is willing to pay them and them and other legit creditors, but only under certain conditions that will also allow him to make money, which will allow him to continue to pay 'his' players, just as he does with all the employees of his other successful companies.

Its quite easy to reconcile. 

Basically, johnny makes the point livolsi cannot be expected to be made responsible for Argyles screw ups if he doesn't get what he wants whilst in the earlier post make an entirely different point that your assertion that players should look after their money better is utterly irrelevant and diversionary to the moral responsibility that twp has on paying its creditors.

They are two very different points. 

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

Steve I think this is all over bar't shoutin' the prospect of all 3 NA clubs will be short lived.

On the bad side another failed attempt on the good side forum threads will move on.

I don't think TWP being hammered will affect Ottawa in any way but I believe the rejection and demise of TWP certainly will.

All 3 NA Clubs?

[briggyq]

1 minute ago, Gooleboy said:

All 3 NA Clubs?

New York id assume, if that ever gets off the ground

[Quolls2020]

12 hours ago, mrfranco said:

People have posted links above saying that O'Brien has a deal at Cas for next season if TWP are out and to an interview with SBW post NRL finals exit saying he's keeping his options open if TWP "falls through" (i think that was his wording, I'm working from memory). So both of those players, by way of example, seem to be still TWP players as much as McCrone is.

I did forget one important point.

when TWP failed to pay their players, the contracts were legally broken.

No players are legally tied to TWP (unless they signed a new contract agreeing to future payments). If you look at the players still listed as Toronto, you will find that very few if any Were offered other positions from other clubs and Wilkin has stated his intention to retire.

This does not mean that TWP has no legal obligation for the back pay, they certainly do, but they have no hold on any of the players because they (TWP) broke the contract.

it is a very messy circumstance, on many levels, just one being, if LiVolsi is successful will he want to fully pay players who will no longer there, including some who will be playing for the opposition?

He will need to invest very heavily to convince players Of standard to join or “remain” and perhaps even pay them in advance.

Hopefully it shouldn’t be too long to wait for a decision, but COVID still has the potential to change it all again.

Big decisions.

 

 

 

[Oldbear]

2 hours ago, Steve Slater said:

If TWP are allowed back next year and are getting hammered every week, not only will it set them back it could also have an adverse affect on Ottowa's future prospects? Much better to come back in 2022 fully prepared.

I agree, TWP getting hammered every week will screw up the chance of a decent, short term Canadian deal and will almost certainly not please Sky who want to be able offer games where the outcome is in doubt until the end, or at worst, the final 20 mins. The game being all over after 15-20 mins does not make good TV and will put off casual observers. It could as you say have an adverse effect on Ottawa’s prospects since it would be difficult for them to get TV exposure when the senior Canadian team is getting destroyed each week.

What we all must remember is that the timeframe between the end of this season and the start of next is less than 5 months, not a lot of time for TWP to build a competitive squad, especially when you didn’t treat the last one very well.

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, PhilCarrington said:

Nice attempt to spin. I'm not begging, just asking you to be consistent after you Kayakman said you wouldn't beg. Just another TWP promise ?

Ha!  Ha!  Thank you Phil for giving me my laugh for the day....I've never begged in my life and I don't intend to start now.  You are fairly new to the forum and obviously do not know/comprehend the past relationship and banter between Harry Stottle and myself....you've misread it (or, as a lawyer would say, "You have misinterpreted the meaning I was trying to convey.").  Its Okay though, I have had the same problem with Harry on numerous occasions in the past  (nudge nudge; wink wink).

As for consistency, well you are talking to a long range solo kayaker who has been on numerous long range expeditions (thats plural) in dangerous cold waters...I know how to keep the paddlestroke long and steady with lots of power...over and over, second after second, minute after minute, undying hour after hour, never ending day after day, week after hazy week and month after forgotten month!  Don't talk to me about consistency please.

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, Hello said:

Reading this message board as a casual observer I can only conclude that you League fans have a desire for your  already very peripheral sport to contract even further and become even less relevant the way that you take such obvious pleasure in kicking TWP whem they're down.  The recent BBC article summed things up nicely - is league serious about trying to expand its narrow horizons.  Reading this board one has to conclude that the answer is a resounding "no". Shame that most of you don't seem to want to promote your game. I know, I will be met with bla Dee bla Toronto off the field this, Toronto on the field that but you're only trying to fool yourselves.  Without covid they would have continued to invest heavily on promotion of your sport, something that you should have welcomed. Covid has proven the perfect excuse to kick the dying corpse of expansion for the apparently large number of you who don't seem to like the idea of your sport becoming more, instead of even less, popular. You might actually regret this in future as other unnamed sports pull yet further away from you in popularity. Be very careful what you wish for.

 

Some things you say have merit, there are definitely those in the game who do not welcome new entrants or new markets but there are many like me, a huge fan of expansion who also believe that expansion will only succeed if it’s well funded, well planned and supported by ownership over the long term. Covid was almost certainly the straw that broke the camels back for TWP but the reality is that well before Covid there were a number of off field issues, like delayed player payments, unpaid suppliers, the visa fiasco and the mismanagement of the salary cap leading to an under strength squad including the farce of Gigot playing as a trialist. None of these suggests that the club was going to be able to invest, at least without a Canadian TV deal, which due to the current Sky arrangement was not possible until that deal had expired. I believe that Argyle took a gamble that he could muddle through until that deal gave him the option to negotiate his own but Covid killed that off, plus the team getting battered most weeks was not going to be a great sell to Canadian broadcasters. 
 

Of course I want TWP to succeed, I hold dual British and Canadian citizenship, but there needs to be adequate funding and most important a realistic business plan which is managed by a competent off field set up. If those things remain in doubt then it’s difficult to see how they can  re enter the competition.

[Oldbear]

4 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

As for consistency, well you are talking to a long range solo kayaker who has been on numerous long range expeditions (thats plural) in dangerous cold waters...I know how to keep the paddlestroke long and steady with lots of power...over and over, second after second, minute after minute, undying hour after hour, never ending day after day, week after hazy week and month after forgotten month!  Don't talk to me about consistency please.

If LiVolisi gets the nod to re enter, you should send him your resume. Those kind of qualities would already make you 100 times better than Martin Vickers!

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, briggyq said:

New York id assume, if that ever gets off the ground

Do you have some knowledge it won't?

[TIWIT]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

Its quite easy to reconcile. 

Basically, johnny makes the point livolsi cannot be expected to be made responsible for Argyles screw ups if he doesn't get what he wants whilst in the earlier post make an entirely different point that your assertion that players should look after their money better is utterly irrelevant and diversionary to the moral responsibility that twp has on paying its creditors.

They are two very different points. 

You are essentially correct and I pretty much agree. Perhaps I shoudnt have combined the two because as you note they are two different issues.

But I'm stuck in a hospital bed so what else can I do for fun but argue?

[Robin Evans]

12 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

You are essentially correct and I pretty much agree. Perhaps I shoudnt have combined the two because as you note they are two different issues.

But I'm stuck in a hospital bed so what else can I do for fun but argue?

I've been in bed since Sunday with a 39°c temp, a raging uti, peeing marmite  a cough and I've done a covid swab today. 

[PhilCarrington]

29 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Ha!  Ha!  Thank you Phil for giving me my laugh for the day....I've never begged in my life and I don't intend to start now.  You are fairly new to the forum and obviously do not know/comprehend the past relationship and banter between Harry Stottle and myself....you've misread it (or, as a lawyer would say, "You have misinterpreted the meaning I was trying to convey.").  Its Okay though, I have had the same problem with Harry on numerous occasions in the past  (nudge nudge; wink wink).

As for consistency, well you are talking to a long range solo kayaker who has been on numerous long range expeditions (thats plural) in dangerous cold waters...I know how to keep the paddlestroke long and steady with lots of power...over and over, second after second, minute after minute, undying hour after hour, never ending day after day, week after hazy week and month after forgotten month!  Don't talk to me about consistency please.

You are easily amused.

As an easy check on the profiles on the site would clearly show, I've been on this forum far longer than you (2010 v 2017),  but hey who needs facts when you can just be condescending.

[TIWIT]

2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

I've been in bed since Sunday with a 39°c temp, a raging uti, peeing marmite  a cough and I've done a covid swab today. 

Brothers in misery then eh?

Get well.

[Quolls2020]

20 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Brothers in misery then eh?

Get well.

2 of you!!, I hope this thread isn’t making people sick!!

[Oldbear]

41 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Brothers in misery then eh?

Get well.

Seconded, for both of you. This forum needs you both.

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

Do you have some knowledge it won't?

I’m not sure anyone has any knowledge, it’s just suspicion based on a number of things like

1. Covid, the US hasn’t got a clue where it is with the virus, who knows what’s happening next there?

2. Concern over the finances, they will need a TV deal, can they get one (I suspect it will be far more difficult than Canadian teams will find in Canada, and that’s not going to be easy. I just don’t see American TV audiences tuning in to a sport that they have zero knowledge of, especially if their team does not dominate from the get go. Americans only take sports seriously if they can dominate them and short of being allowed to sign a complete NRL squad, that ain’t happening for many, many years, if ever.

3. Need I say it, but Ricky Wilby?

[TIWIT]

32 minutes ago, Quolls2020 said:

2 of you!!, I hope this thread isn’t making people sick!!

Well it is a world-wide pandemic.

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I’m not sure anyone has any knowledge, it’s just suspicion based on a number of things like

1. Covid, the US hasn’t got a clue where it is with the virus, who knows what’s happening next there?

2. Concern over the finances, they will need a TV deal, can they get one (I suspect it will be far more difficult than Canadian teams will find in Canada, and that’s not going to be easy. I just don’t see American TV audiences tuning in to a sport that they have zero knowledge of, especially if their team does not dominate from the get go. Americans only take sports seriously if they can dominate them and short of being allowed to sign a complete NRL squad, that ain’t happening for many, many years, if ever.

3. Need I say it, but Ricky Wilby?

The effects of Covid are much more likely to be economic in terms of sport, people are worried about getting crowds back but what crowds we have may not be able to attend as, on the whole,  they'll be the most affected.

They don't "need" a TV deal and this has been part of the lack of understanding by the RFL and SL over this, it will always be far roo long a game for TGG to be able to cope & work on.

I was afraid that Ricky Wilby might be an issue for some.

 

[Quolls2020]

It is getting  Closer
 

https://www.thestar.com/sports/2020/10/21/financially-troubled-toronto-wolfpack-likely-to-learn-fate-in-early-november.html
 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-financially-troubled-toronto-wolfpack-likely-to-learn-fate-in-early/

[Manx RL]

8 hours ago, Oldbear said:

If LiVolisi gets the nod to re enter, you should send him your resume. Those kind of qualities would already make you 100 times better than Martin Vickers!

Simply not being Martin Vickers makes someone 100 times better than Martin Vickers.