The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Kayakman]

9 hours ago, SL17 said:

That’s my point exactly. You don’t want a NA league.

So what do you want in the name of expansion?

WOW!  Ok...you asked for it...don't get mad.

"We would like expansion."

 

[Dave T]

51 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

 

If it is for a level playing field, great. But, if that is meant to be at a high level, then Toronto Wolfpack will need allowance to make up for their inherently harder time in attracting players.

There is a slight problem with this though in that Salford are also less attractive than say, Wigan, and they could then be asking for dispensations. 

I also think it is somewhat subjective as to whether TWP do have an inherently harder time in attracting players. It doesn't sound like a bad job for an RL player to me. BUt it will suit some, and not others. There is the cost of living piece, which is being addressed, and I think they should receive the full allowance of £100k for youth, say for a period of the first 10 years or another length of time deemed appropriate. 

I'm not sure too much else is incompatible. 

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Bob8 said:

The balance is always there.

The sport has rarely been seen as in rude health, so the idea of expanding the market is seen as necessary with caveats.

The sport is in an unusual place, media is going international and most sports are either to rich (rugby union) or successful (soccer, gaelic football) to want to change or target the size of market available (american football), others are to small to have the option (e.g. shinty).

Rugby league has unique potential to explode. But, explosions leave injuries behind.

Very true, but as the whole Toronto saga shows that potential can't be realized within the existing RL structure in the northern hemisphere.  It's too small and too wedded to the needs of small time parochial traditional clubs for that.  It could only happen via a whole new built-for-purpose franchised RL competition set up along the completely different lines of the money-spinning major North America pro leagues.  Nothing less could conceivably interest the sort of rich investors needed for serious expansion of a game with the sort of image problems which RL has to work.

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Not in terms of the games actions. 

There are a couple of major differences. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Not in the difference you noted.

It makes nonsense to say the game did it on the cheap with Gateshead by not funding them but isnt doing the same with Toronto by not funding them

The game is doing pretty much the same just hoping Argyle has more money than gateshead did

No, the game has insisted that TWP prove themselves as being able to setup and fund a brand new RL team. That is already a major difference from Gateshead Thunder. 

The game has made sure that TWP has rich investment whereas Gateshead fell over pretty quickly.

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm pretty sure gateshead did that. 

Gateshead didnt really fall over very quickly. They were sacrificed to save hull

But that wasnt the point. Your point was they did it on the cheap with gateshead, as they are with Toronto 

They didn't have hugely rich backers at Gateshead and carry out their due diligence. 

 

Gateshead's chief executive Shane Richardson said: "This was an extremely tough decision to make. But, after all the deliberations, it was decided there was no other option open. The newly-merged club will do all it can to support grass roots and junior rugby league in the north-east. I think it has been shown that the Gateshead area was not yet ready for a Super League team.

"I am hugely disappointed on a personal level and I would like to sincerely thank all those people who got behind the Gateshead club. At the end of the day the resources are just not there at this stage."

[aj1908]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

They didn't have hugely rich backers at Gateshead and carry out their due diligence. 

 

Gateshead's chief executive Shane Richardson said: "This was an extremely tough decision to make. But, after all the deliberations, it was decided there was no other option open. The newly-merged club will do all it can to support grass roots and junior rugby league in the north-east. I think it has been shown that the Gateshead area was not yet ready for a Super League team.

"I am hugely disappointed on a personal level and I would like to sincerely thank all those people who got behind the Gateshead club. At the end of the day the resources are just not there at this stage."

Gateshead were getting decent crowds around 4k? Which was near the super league average 

Newcastle is showing good signs now 

Magic does well there too 

Have to get a super league club back there 

[JonM]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm pretty sure gateshead did that. 

Gateshead didnt really fall over very quickly. They were sacrificed to save hull

But that wasnt the point. Your point was they did it on the cheap with gateshead, as they are with Toronto 

Gateshead was basically Shane Richardson and Kath Hetherington(with some money from I think also John Stabler, the York chairman.) They ran out of money in the first season. Gary & Kath started Sheffield Eagles with £13k of their own money. Richo obviously had put rather more into Gateshead, but I'm sure I remember him describing it as his "chip shop" - he was buying himself a job running a RL club. This was not a well-funded/ well resourced expansion attempt. We haven't really had any of those in the UK that I can recall. 

[aj1908]

16 minutes ago, JonM said:

Gateshead was basically Shane Richardson and Kath Hetherington(with some money from I think also John Stabler, the York chairman.) They ran out of money in the first season. Gary & Kath started Sheffield Eagles with £13k of their own money. Richo obviously had put rather more into Gateshead, but I'm sure I remember him describing it as his "chip shop" - he was buying himself a job running a RL club. This was not a well-funded/ well resourced expansion attempt. We haven't really had any of those in the UK that I can recall. 

Think he said he lost his house from funding Gateshead 

[JonM]

1 hour ago, aj1908 said:

Think he said he lost his house from funding Gateshead 

Yes, he did.

[Bob8]

13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The point I am making is that the game 'did it on the cheap' with gateshead, as they are with Toronto.

The game is doing nothing to grow toronto, investing nothing in it. It is doing it on the cheap.

The games investment is nothing, its reliance is on argyle having millions and him not doing it on the cheap.

Les Catalans are the closest we have come to the game making any sort of investment in to growing the game  and then largely it was in kind rather than cash.

On the cheap is better than dear.

The issues was more self-sabotage, and ambivilance about whether success was actually wanted.

[Bramstein]

13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The game is doing nothing to grow toronto, investing nothing in it. It is doing it on the cheap.

The games investment is nothing, its reliance is on argyle having millions and him not doing it on the cheap.

But that's an understandable point of view in my opinion.

Until Argyle arrived saying "I've got cash to burn and I want a rugby league team in Toronto" how many people do you reckon had thought that Canada represented a great place to try and develop rugby league?

There are still hundreds of reasons why the Toronto project might fail. Hundreds. It would have been negligence on a gross scale of the RFL or SLE to have ploughed the same amount of cash into a territory where the chances of anything coming of it are, whether you like it or not, very slim.

However the game, certainly in Britain, can't afford to turn away someone who is wanting to pump money in. So in my opinion their stance of being happy to let Toronto in as long as Argyle shoulders the vast bulk of the risk is fine with me.

I know you don't particularly agree with this but I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

19 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Les Catalans are the closest we have come to the game making any sort of investment in to growing the game  and then largely it was in kind rather than cash.

I agree with you more on this one.

[Man of Kent]

The Toronto v Saints London Series game (that was going to be at Saracens on 29 Feb) to be played at Warrington. Go figure.

https://www.torontowolfpack.com/st-helens-game-relocated-to-hj-stadium/

[TboneFromTO]

10 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Toronto v Saints game on 29 Feb to be played at Warrington. Go figure.

https://www.torontowolfpack.com/st-helens-game-relocated-to-hj-stadium/

Ooof. That's a bad look.

Was there no stadium in London available at all?  I hope the fans who got train tickets can get reimbursed  somehow.

Edit: if you have incurred any costs that cannot be refunded you can email customerservices@torontowolfpack.com with proof

[Kayakman]

If they had been flexible and allowed Toronto to actually play all of its home games in Toronto this would not even be an issue...its like dominoes with RL. 

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

Ooof. That's a bad look.

Was there no stadium in London available at all?  I hope the fans who got train tickets can get reimbursed  somehow

It appears Toronto are offering to reimburse those who have spent money on trains, hotels, flights to London etc. 

Apparently Saracens had a change of heart after Nigel Wray stepped down in disgrace. Maybe he was pals with Argyle?

[TboneFromTO]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

It appears Toronto are offering to reimburse those who have spent money on trains, hotels, flights to London etc. 

Apparently Saracens had a change of heart after Nigel Wray stepped down in disgrace. Maybe he was pals with Argyle?

Yeah I saw that and edited right after I posted!

Maybe that's the case - maybe they don't want to mix their brand up with league given their current circumstances, but I think you're probably right!

[Man of Kent]

8 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

If they had been flexible and allowed Toronto to actually play all of its home games in Toronto this would not even be an issue...its like dominoes with RL. 

Tough titty.
It’s Super League, not Wolfpack League

[glossop saint]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

It appears Toronto are offering to reimburse those who have spent money on trains, hotels, flights to London etc. 

Apparently Saracens had a change of heart after Nigel Wray stepped down in disgrace. Maybe he was pals with Argyle?

*nion. Not necessarily Toronto's fault and good to see that they are reimbursing. Hopefully it will be a case of once bitten twice shy in the future when dealing with the other lot. I hope that the RFU change their mind relegate them 2 divisions.

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

Tough titty.
It’s Super League, not Wolfpack League

No, its just plain old common sense spiced with a bit of manners and fair play.

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, glossop saint said:

*nion. Not necessarily Toronto's fault and good to see that they are reimbursing. Hopefully it will be a case of once bitten twice shy in the future when dealing with the other lot. I hope that the RFU change their mind relegate them 2 divisions.

Bit odd that tickets never went on sale, though.

Can be smoke and mirrors with t’Wolfpack at times.

[TboneFromTO]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Bit odd that tickets never went on sale, though.

Can be smoke and mirrors with t’Wolfpack at times.

Come on MoK, drop it to t'pack   you know you wanna!

[Kayakman]

5 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Bit odd that tickets never went on sale, though.

Can be smoke and mirrors with t’Wolfpack at times.

The wolf aleways moves with stealth in the Bush.  You don't even know he is there and then WHAM!!!!!; as Castleford is soon to find out.

[Bob8]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Dear is a relative concept. If the game invests £100m in to Toronto but makes £1b it's cheap. If it invests £1m and loses it all its dear.

Without Argyles millions then nobody would be suggesting the game expands there. It cant afford it. But the game needs to look not only at the return on investment but on the bang for its buck. 

I dont have a problem with Argyle ploughing millions in to it. I think the game should jump for joy at his expenditure. But we also need to look at what we are doing to ensure they are successful or at the very least give them the best chance of being so. Right now we do the opposite.

As in the example I gave to bob it is all relative. The success of the game in canada would payoff many times over. The game doesnt have the money to do it itself, somebody is offering to do it for us, the least we could do is make some sort of contribution. But there has been literally none.

There is a point at which your risk profile is so low you guarantee failure. All too often  that is what the game has done. It is so risk averse its objectives slip from real goals to daydreams. We are never going to be a success in canada (or anywhere really) where our risk appetite is so low and our bar for expansion success is so high. 

In your example think of it another way around. Prior to Argyle nobody would have thought the RFL should invest in Canada. But that counter-factual doesnt currently exist. We do have Argyle. If Argyle is willing to invest £10m, shouldn't we be willing to invest £2m? If he is willing to give canadians a go shouldn't we be willing to have them off cap? If he is willing to fund junior leagues, nines comps etc shouldn't we be willing to fund some development officers? If he is willing to pay to grow Toronto in to a brand that can get a north american tv deal, shouldn't we give him the time and space in SL to do so?

The game isnt set up for success, doesnt invest in success. It barely invests in anything. We shouldn't be surprised if it fails.

If I am offered a 2 in 3 chance to double my money, I would still not invest more than I could afford to lose.

[Dave T]

57 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

The Toronto v Saints London Series game (that was going to be at Saracens on 29 Feb) to be played at Warrington. Go figure.

https://www.torontowolfpack.com/st-helens-game-relocated-to-hj-stadium/

Jesus Christ.