The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Oxford]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

but the willingness for expansion that is the problem.

Couldn't agree more. And as I said we can all stop pretending if we just stop it now. We should ask if we are capable of any kind of long term planning and project goal reaching and achieving. It may also be prudent to ask where in the game certain view points come from and are they in the majority. RL has always been guilty of thinking anything  with a level of difficulty is unsustainable and SL seems to have caught the same disease. If Covid hadn't come along TWP would still be here properly but the number waiting and hoping for it to fail hides and disguises that very crucial fact. And this is why we'll never see expansion on anything but the poorest terms and those most likely to guarantee nothing substantial or sustainable ever comes out of it all. Every time it's tried, everything is based on the logic of the billion things that could go wrong from one end of the game to the other.

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Tangible? Measurable?

Why don't we try repeating the mantra "What does anything outside the M62 bring to the game?" and leave it at that. Clean, honest nips talk of expansion in the bud and we can talk about something else.

When it's suggested that France meaning French RL should be able to stand alone it just illustrates how little knowledge there is about the game there. Mind you isn't that the name of the game: not knowing or not caring or both?

No, it is investigated why France is not doing as well as it should be doing, learn from mistakes and plan forward. Or we can just plan to finance them giving money we can ill afford to give.

[Adelaide Tiger]

On 26/10/2020 at 19:46, Harry Stottle said:

 

Yes, it says in the report it will state what TWP and Canada will bring to SL, now I have asked this question on these pages numerous times and have not recieved any logical reply, all we hear is a passionate 'it will be good for the game' nothing more than a suck it and see mentality.

And on many occasions I have asked ‘How can SL deliver a competition that attracts greater viewers and increased income by offering the same old thing’ and I have not yet received a logical reply.  All I hear is silence.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

And on many occasions I have asked ‘How can SL deliver a competition that attracts greater viewers and increased income by offering the same old thing’ and I have not yet received a logical reply.  All I hear is silence.

Bring in a second Wigan team in red and white! 

[Oxford]

3 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

And on many occasions I have asked ‘How can SL deliver a competition that attracts greater viewers and increased income by offering the same old thing’ and I have not yet received a logical reply.  All I hear is silence.

Spot on AT!

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No, it is investigated why France is not doing as well as it should be doing, learn from mistakes and plan forward. Or we can just plan to finance them giving money we can ill afford to give.

The assumption that it's simply a matter of mistakes that were made by French RL is interesting and illuminating, Harry.

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Couldn't agree more. And as I said we can all stop pretending if we just stop it now. We should ask if we are capable of any kind of long term planning and project goal reaching and achieving. It may also be prudent to ask where in the game certain view points come from and are they in the majority. RL has always been guilty of thinking anything  with a level of difficulty is unsustainable and SL seems to have caught the same disease. If Covid hadn't come along TWP would still be here properly but the number waiting and hoping for it to fail hides and disguises that very crucial fact. And this is why we'll never see expansion on anything but the poorest terms and those most likely to guarantee nothing substantial or sustainable ever comes out of it all. Every time it's tried, everything is based on the logic of the billion things that could go wrong from one end of the game to the other.

I agree there's a fundamentally flawed logic at the heart of the anti-expansion narrative.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

And on many occasions I have asked ‘How can SL deliver a competition that attracts greater viewers and increased income by offering the same old thing’ and I have not yet received a logical reply.  All I hear is silence.

How did Bradford go so well under Mr Deakin, why is Cas the best supported team in respect of population numbers, why is Wigan losing support year on year are we our own worst enemies and we don't try to improve our offer AT. 

There are those who say improve the matchday expierence even making what is on offer on the field secondary to a long afternoon/evening of entertainment.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No, it is investigated why France is not doing as well as it should be doing, learn from mistakes and plan forward. Or we can just plan to finance them giving money we can ill afford to give.

How well "should" France be doing? 

They're a part time, regional sport (in the less politically influential region) that for at least 50 years faced active discrimination in some cases to the extreme degree of being banned, assets stripped and being unable to use their own name. England refuse to take them seriously (and by consequence France treat the games with the same respect England give them). Aside from that they play more regular test matches in Europe than England do.

Granted they fatally misjudged the impact of TV in the mid 70s(?), but I ask again, how well "shoud" they be doing?

[Robin Evans]

48 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Tangible? Measurable?

Why don't we try repeating the mantra "What does anything outside the M62 bring to the game?" and leave it at that. Clean, honest nips talk of expansion in the bud and we can talk about something else.

When it's suggested that France meaning French RL should be able to stand alone it just illustrates how little knowledge there is about the game there. Mind you isn't that the name of the game: not knowing or not caring or both?

Yes. Tangible and measurable.

Are you saying we should proceed regardless if the impact on the uk game would leave clubs in a precarious position??

Are you saying we should proceed regardless without any due scrutiny??

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

24 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Spot on AT!

The assumption that it's simply a matter of mistakes that were made by French RL is interesting and illuminating, Harry.

Please expand Oxy, I'm always willing to learn.

[dkw]

55 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Bring in a second Wigan team in red and white! 

No, you cant just bring in a second Wigan team in Red and White. They will need to be distinctly different.....so make them wear white and red instead.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

Yes. Tangible and measurable.

Are you saying we should proceed regardless if the impact on the uk game would leave clubs in a precarious position??

Are you saying we should proceed regardless without any due scrutiny??

 

 

Indeed - people criticise the game for doing things without a plan - all you are asking for is a plan, and that is being mocked!

It is entirely reasonable to set a target on what you are aiming for. That may be modest - something like the NA clubs funding themselves +£1m into SLE per year within 10 years. That would probably mean commercial and media deals worth £5m per year based on two teams. 

That could mean with 10 existing teams they benefit from £4m of existing funding, plus £1m of NA funding - a further £5m per year. 

Those numbers are just illustrative, but there is no reason why we wouldn't have a number in as an ambition. 

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed - people criticise the game for doing things without a plan - all you are asking for is a plan, and that is being mocked!

It is entirely reasonable to set a target on what you are aiming for. That may be modest - something like the NA clubs funding themselves +£1m into SLE per year within 10 years. That would probably mean commercial and media deals worth £5m per year based on two teams. 

That could mean with 10 existing teams they benefit from £4m of existing funding, plus £1m of NA funding - a further £5m per year. 

Those numbers are just illustrative, but there is no reason why we wouldn't have a number in as an ambition. 

I totally agree that should be what we're aiming for.

[Oxford]

Why should we demand money or anything else for the priviledge of a country joining our sport ? If expansion has any substance to it, it certainly isn't as a ESL cash cow.

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

How well "should" France be doing? 

They're a part time, regional sport (in the less politically influential region) that for at least 50 years faced active discrimination in some cases to the extreme degree of being banned, assets stripped and being unable to use their own name. England refuse to take them seriously (and by consequence France treat the games with the same respect England give them). Aside from that they play more regular test matches in Europe than England do.

Granted they fatally misjudged the impact of TV in the mid 70s(?), but I ask again, how well "shoud" they be doing?

Although there are some very close to this forum who don't like to discuss it, the idea that the discrimination has disappeared is fanciful.

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Please expand Oxy, I'm always willing to learn.

Harry somehow I doubt you need that expanded in any way. I'm sure you looked at Tommy's reply and he did put it rather well.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Why should we demand money or anything else for the priviledge of a country joining our sport ? If expansion has any substance to it, it certainly isn't as a ESL cash cow.

Although there are some very close to this forum who don't like to discuss it, the idea that the discrimination has disappeared is fanciful.

They are not joining our sport, they want to join our commercial league competition. 

 

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

They are not joining our sport, they want to join our commercial league competition. 

 

So Joining RL as a money making enterprise, will you tell them or should I?

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Oxford said:

So Joining RL as a money making enterprise, will you tell them or should I?

Well you could try not ignoring what I said.

They can play RL as much as they want. Joining and playing RL is free if you have a ball.

I can play football if I have a ball, I can't just go and join the Premier League though.

[Oxford]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well you could try not ignoring what I said.

They can play RL as much as they want. Joining and playing RL is free if you have a ball.

I can play football if I have a ball, I can't just go and join the Premier League though.

Well I didn't ignore anything Dave, I replied to you.

Your analogy doesn't really work though as me wanting to be a film star doesn't mean I will be but if I had enough money I could run an RL club. Unlike quite a few I wouldn't pretend I could run it well but beyond the dosh I'm aware of no other qualifications needed.

You were totally on the money with the need for a plan though. And the absence of  one has been the defining issue which mirrors much of the discussion we have to have about expansion.

 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Well I didn't ignore anything Dave, I replied to you.

Your analogy doesn't really work though as me wanting to be a film star doesn't mean I will be but if I had enough money I could run an RL club. Unlike quite a few I wouldn't pretend I could run it well but beyond the dosh I'm aware of no other qualifications needed.

You were totally on the money with the need for a plan though. And the absence of  one has been the defining issue which mirrors much of the discussion we have to have about expansion.

 

My analogy was about running a football club, not being an actor. Its the same point. 

We shouldn't be ashamed of making demands of somebody wanting to join the pyramid. Particularly if they want us to hand over £1.8m per year. 

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

My analogy was about running a football club, not being an actor. Its the same point. 

We shouldn't be ashamed of making demands of somebody wanting to join the pyramid. Particularly if they want us to hand over £1.8m per year. 

Although there is a logic in what you say Dave, it sounds like a sport lacking in confidence and belief in itself to think that way.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

Why should we demand money or anything else for the priviledge of a country joining our sport ? If expansion has any substance to it, it certainly isn't as a ESL cash cow.

Although there are some very close to this forum who don't like to discuss it, the idea that the discrimination has disappeared is fanciful.

Indeed, see the Perpignan RU thread

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed, see the Perpignan RU thread

I never look at Yawn sites and forums because I'm not a Troll and don't wish to attack as a sport even though I use that title for it on here.

I also won't discuss it here for obvious reasons and try to only mention it ( the  discrimination) in passing and then move on.

It hasn't gone away and doesn't when it's ignored.

But when people try to make out it's our brothers in arms fault like they're doing nothing and trying nowt I have to speak out.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

I never look at Yawn sites and forums because I'm not a Troll and don't wish to attack as a sport even though I use that title for it on here.

I also won't discuss it here for obvious reasons and try to only mention it ( the  discrimination) in passing and then move on.

It hasn't gone away and doesn't when it's ignored.

But when people try to make out it's our brothers in arms fault like they're doing nothing and trying nowt I have to speak out.

There are thousands who say it cannot be done, there are thousands who predict failure....I'm not one of them in any way...neither are TWP fans....that is why RL needs Toronto so badly.

[Robin Evans]

2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

There are thousands who say it cannot be done, there are thousands who predict failure....I'm not one of them in any way...neither are TWP fans....that is why RL needs Toronto so badly.

You are the opposite. Predictions of violins and angels..... despite the recent screw up pointing otherwise.....