The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, aj1908 said:

But right after England?

Shame they didn't get games this time but northern funding or whatever it's called stopped it 

France deserves  a wc for sure 

I don't see an issue with England staging 2021 and then France in 2025. It'd obviously be better for it to be in a different hemisphere, but France and England are very different countries that could offer very different tournaments. 

I think when England are hosts staging all the games in England isn't a bad idea, otherwise France will always just be the junior partner. 

We also have to be prepared to do things differently. Look at Euro 2020 - always been across one or two European nations, this time they are doing 12 cities across 12 nations. 

[aj1908]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't see an issue with England staging 2021 and then France in 2025. It'd obviously be better for it to be in a different hemisphere, but France and England are very different countries that could offer very different tournaments. 

I think when England are hosts staging all the games in England isn't a bad idea, otherwise France will always just be the junior partner. 

We also have to be prepared to do things differently. Look at Euro 2020 - always been across one or two European nations, this time they are doing 12 cities across 12 nations. 

France has a better chance than Canada right now 

Canada could get their chance after it Toronto and Ottowa are doing well

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't see an issue with England staging 2021 and then France in 2025. It'd obviously be better for it to be in a different hemisphere, but France and England are very different countries that could offer very different tournaments. 

I think when England are hosts staging all the games in England isn't a bad idea, otherwise France will always just be the junior partner. 

We also have to be prepared to do things differently. Look at Euro 2020 - always been across one or two European nations, this time they are doing 12 cities across 12 nations. 

As I eluded to earlier can the FFR give guarantees to the competeing teams?

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I eluded to earlier can the FFR give guarantees to the competeing teams?

Not necessarily, who knows. I do think we need to make some choices as a sport though, and I would like to maybe see  an RLIF owned organising committee in the case of France (or any other developing territory) rather than putting the onus on the FFR. In reality we have two cash-rich RL nations who can host a 16 team tournament like this, but if we just leave these things to the likes of the FFR, we will probably never see a tournament there!

[Bob8]

On 03/02/2020 at 23:26, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

I honestly think people understand the amount of time in playing hours it gets to be of a professional standard.

Which is why something x-league needs to be pushed as an activity in developing nations when these short leagues are not playing.

Just to drive up the amount of time a player has in a Rugby League style environment.

It shows a cultural cringe in the sport's culture in my opinion. Rugby union fans rarely think hundreds of other people could wander into their sport and be world class.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

10 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It shows a cultural cringe in the sport's culture in my opinion. Rugby union fans rarely think hundreds of other people could wander into their sport and be world class.

I also don't think people understand the pace good quality Rugby League is played at.

It requires a lot of training to have the instincts to react to the ever changing situation and as well as the all round physical demands it requires a constant process of decision making.

That level of mental agility is part of the sport, its a game that looks easy until you play it.

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Not necessarily, who knows. I do think we need to make some choices as a sport though, and I would like to maybe see  an RLIF owned organising committee in the case of France (or any other developing territory) rather than putting the onus on the FFR. In reality we have two cash-rich RL nations who can host a 16 team tournament like this, but if we just leave these things to the likes of the FFR, we will probably never see a tournament there!

But this blends in nicely with previous discussions re the make up of the WC and all the if you excuse the expression "fabricated teams" which are merely an extension of Australian nationals representing other countries.

These countries have no federations so to speak with any money to finance a trip to a World Cup for an extended period, and that includes the Pacific Island, European, and African teams basically every nation excepting Australia, England and NZ and I doubt the last 2 could ride a loss, therefore the 'Home' or organising nation will have to give guarantees to cover the costs for the other travelling countries.

I hear what you say, but I don't think the costs should have to fall on other nations to say finance a WC in France when to recieve a return they would be dependant on both the French Organisers to get it right - the French know France best, not a RLIF owned organising commitee - and the French Public to buy into the concept. 

England prooved in '13 that the interest is there, and even though we keep being told the Aussies are not interested in International Football there are a lot more than just Aussie fans from that nation who will get along to the games from the vast numbers of immigrants those teams represent, France have simply not got that, it would be a financial gamble to take the WC to France, one which without the French input on purely buisness sense I doubt will take place.

I would love it to do so if I am speaking from the heart, but with a purely buisness head on I don't think it will, so it's 4 year cycles between England and Aus with satellite games in NZ as per '17.

 

[TIWIT]

IMHO a World Cup played in Canada would be an unmitigated disaster.

TWP are just starting to build a following here but most fans are TWP fans, not RL fans. Internationally Canada is nowhere in the game and without a competitive home team the tournament would attract little interest.

Maybe in 10+ years, with Toronto and Ottawa well established along with a few American teams and some native-born players the game might have a high enough profile for it to work, but even then I would consider a WC Final selling out BMO Field would be a success.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But this blends in nicely with previous discussions re the make up of the WC and all the if you excuse the expression "fabricated teams" which are merely an extension of Australian nationals representing other countries.

These countries have no federations so to speak with any money to finance a trip to a World Cup for an extended period, and that includes the Pacific Island, European, and African teams basically every nation excepting Australia, England and NZ and I doubt the last 2 could ride a loss, therefore the 'Home' or organising nation will have to give guarantees to cover the costs for the other travelling countries.

I hear what you say, but I don't think the costs should have to fall on other nations to say finance a WC in France when to recieve a return they would be dependant on both the French Organisers to get it right - the French know France best, not a RLIF owned organising commitee - and the French Public to buy into the concept. 

England prooved in '13 that the interest is there, and even though we keep being told the Aussies are not interested in International Football there are a lot more than just Aussie fans from that nation who will get along to the games from the vast numbers of immigrants those teams represent, France have simply not got that, it would be a financial gamble to take the WC to France, one which without the French input on purely buisness sense I doubt will take place.

I would love it to do so if I am speaking from the heart, but with a purely buisness head on I don't think it will, so it's 4 year cycles between England and Aus with satellite games in NZ as per '17.

 

For me its 2025 in the Southern Hemisphere.

2029 - You look to play back in the UK but have more games in France and shift the focus away from the North.

 

 

[TheReaper]

A timely analysis on the possibility of a Canadian RWC (union). 

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2020/02/04/rugby-world-cup-in-americas-canada/

 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

4 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

IMHO a World Cup played in Canada would be an unmitigated disaster.

TWP are just starting to build a following here but most fans are TWP fans, not RL fans. Internationally Canada is nowhere in the game and without a competitive home team the tournament would attract little interest.

Maybe in 10+ years, with Toronto and Ottawa well established along with a few American teams and some native-born players the game might have a high enough profile for it to work, but even then I would consider a WC Final selling out BMO Field would be a success.

For me you need to start with a plan for 2033 for North America and sit down and think how you can sensibly make it happen.

I seriously think that's scale of the task.

That might mean identifying TV exposure, growing the amateur game and 10 years of planned internationals in North America.

 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, TIWIT said:

IMHO a World Cup played in Canada would be an unmitigated disaster.

TWP are just starting to build a following here but most fans are TWP fans, not RL fans. Internationally Canada is nowhere in the game and without a competitive home team the tournament would attract little interest.

Maybe in 10+ years, with Toronto and Ottawa well established along with a few American teams and some native-born players the game might have a high enough profile for it to work, but even then I would consider a WC Final selling out BMO Field would be a success.

I can't say I agree with you or not TIWIT I have no knowledge of your country or sporting values so I will not make judgement on your first comment.

BUT as per your second paragraph, I do have some knowledge of RL and it seems to me a long shot if in 10+ years Canada can produce enough player's of a sufficient standard to populate an international team to not be completely embarrased in such a competition as the WC.

A thought just accured to me, have you edged your bets with your10+ years? If the + value on top of the 10 is 25 to 30 I will lean over to your thinking, not all the way though, just a little bit

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

For me its 2025 in the Southern Hemisphere.

2029 - You look to play back in the UK but have more games in France and shift the focus away from the North.

 

 

Shift the focus away from the North Tex and penalise all those fans who go to games week in week out who wish to attend the WC games, but cannot afford either the time or expense to travel down sarf, sorry I can't agree with you.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

For me you need to start with a plan for 2033 for North America and sit down and think how you can sensibly make it happen.

I seriously think that's scale of the task.

That might mean identifying TV exposure, growing the amateur game and 10 years of planned internationals in North America.

 

And as I eluded to, someone, consortium or organisation to gaurentee the expenses to the competing teams.

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, aj1908 said:

France deserves  a wc for sure 

Why? Just playing devils advocate do they deserve it more so than say PNG, France has 10 teams in their domestic comp plus two in the English league system, PNG has 12 teams in it's domestic comp plus PNG Hunters in the Queensland Cup, obviously France has a far better infrastructure and is a fabulous place to visit. This is a rhetorical question which I do not really expect an answer.

[Loup]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Really, when is that Tommy? 

 

Tentatively Oct 24, not yet confirmed, but it's been under discussion for a few months.

 

https://www.thestar.com/sports/2020/01/22/wolfpack-look-to-play-world-cup-champion-australia-in-toronto-in-october.html

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Loup said:

Tentatively Oct 24, not yet confirmed, but it's been under discussion for a few months.

 

https://www.thestar.com/sports/2020/01/22/wolfpack-look-to-play-world-cup-champion-australia-in-toronto-in-october.html

Oct 24th, that is only 2 weeks after the Grand Final, not much preparation time for your lads after coming down from a weeks celebrating on the amber singing syrup, still should be no problem at Fortress Lamport

[TIWIT]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

BUT as per your second paragraph, I do have some knowledge of RL and it seems to me a long shot if in 10+ years Canada can produce enough player's of a sufficient standard to populate an international team to not be completely embarrased in such a competition as the WC.

A thought just accured to me, have you edged your bets with your10+ years? If the + value on top of the 10 is 25 to 30 I will lean over to your thinking, not all the way though, just a little bit

Personally I would rather our national team not qualify for a WC at all than go and be an embarrassment to the country by getting hammered (see our RU national team). 

Others think it a disaster the national team doesn't qualify for a WC (see our national soccer team). Again, if you can't beat the local little fish to qualify for a WC then better you not go at all and get routed by the big fish.

But in 10-15 years I can see some young lads who show some promise in the game, enough at least that if we were to qualify we"d not be the worst team there. And if the growth continues maybe in another 5-10 years we could conceivably hold a WC.

But again, driving that growth will be the success of TWP and Ottawa and any other Canadian teams. Kids here will only continue to strive for the highest levels if they think they can make a pro career out of it.

[Harry Stottle]

16 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Personally I would rather our national team not qualify for a WC at all than go and be an embarrassment to the country by getting hammered (see our RU national team). 

Others think it a disaster the national team doesn't qualify for a WC (see our national soccer team). Again, if you can't beat the local little fish to qualify for a WC then better you not go at all and get routed by the big fish.

But in 10-15 years I can see some young lads who show some promise in the game, enough at least that if we were to qualify we"d not be the worst team there. And if the growth continues maybe in another 5-10 years we could conceivably hold a WC.

But again, driving that growth will be the success of TWP and Ottawa and any other Canadian teams. Kids here will only continue to strive for the highest levels if they think they can make a pro career out of it.

Thanks for the reply TIWIT, how do you see a structure being formulated in Canada that can hopefully result in the bit you highlighted, I have had some expierence in the develpment of kids that go on to have a career in the game, it is a long drawn out process that can only be acheived by having a large number playing at any given age level, where the best advance to perform with and against their contemporaries and then the cream of that crop go on to an elite level and from those not all make it to the pro game, if a conversion rate of 1 in a 100 makes it to SL never mind international status from the onset of them starting out in the game that would be considered very good.

I am not saying this because I have any disrespect that Canada can acheive what you describe, I am just intrigued how within a relatively few years of say 25 a process can be set up and functioning to acheive the required results,  I have used the term previously that RL is an organic product, I truly believe that from the first seeds being sown it will take a long time to produce a good crop.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Shift the focus away from the North Tex and penalise all those fans who go to games week in week out who wish to attend the WC games, but cannot afford either the time or expense to travel down sarf, sorry I can't agree with you.

The sport wont survive unless it becomes relevant to the modern world.  That's finding the balance between the tried and tested and the fantasy world some people live in.

If we can sell out games in the south and in france we play them there.  It makes the sport look bigger and gets better sponsorship and much needed credibility and media attention.

If the stadiums are going to be empty we play games at places we know work.

We change but in a sensible way.

 The game is dying we cant keep playing the same old tune.

 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

42 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the reply TIWIT, how do you see a structure being formulated in Canada that can hopefully result in the bit you highlighted, I have had some expierence in the develpment of kids that go on to have a career in the game, it is a long drawn out process that can only be acheived by having a large number playing at any given age level, where the best advance to perform with and against their contemporaries and then the cream of that crop go on to an elite level and from those not all make it to the pro game, if a conversion rate of 1 in a 100 makes it to SL never mind international status from the onset of them starting out in the game that would be considered very good.

I am not saying this because I have any disrespect that Canada can acheive what you describe, I am just intrigued how within a relatively few years of say 25 a process can be set up and functioning to acheive the required results,  I have used the term previously that RL is an organic product, I truly believe that from the first seeds being sown it will take a long time to produce a good crop.

I think the talent is already in Canada having watch Canada beat England at Glasgow at the 9s.

My believe is it needs a plan to get the amateur game at healthier standard and get those players the experience they need.

A few of them in the reserve system over here would be a start.

 

 

[TIWIT]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the reply TIWIT, how do you see a structure being formulated in Canada that can hopefully result in the bit you highlighted, I have had some expierence in the develpment of kids that go on to have a career in the game, it is a long drawn out process that can only be acheived by having a large number playing at any given age level, where the best advance to perform with and against their contemporaries and then the cream of that crop go on to an elite level and from those not all make it to the pro game, if a conversion rate of 1 in a 100 makes it to SL never mind international status from the onset of them starting out in the game that would be considered very good.

I am not saying this because I have any disrespect that Canada can acheive what you describe, I am just intrigued how within a relatively few years of say 25 a process can be set up and functioning to acheive the required results,  I have used the term previously that RL is an organic product, I truly believe that from the first seeds being sown it will take a long time to produce a good crop.

RL is a very long way behind RU here. But rugby is played and it is very popular on the community level - even my little dinky-dink town has a team that plays in the highest provincial league.

That's where TWP and Ottawa come in. Kids see this different version of the game being played and will want to try it out. Right now TWP have a much higher profile than RU's Toronto Arrows and Argyle at all have to build on this if they want to maintain that edge because MLR are expanding aggressively. The lack of a TV deal for this year is a major setback.

Back when I was in high school football was the major sport - soccer was for the little guys who weren't big enough/tough enough for football. High school football is virtually dead now - less than half the schools still play compared to my day. It's too expensive, too dangerous, too brutal for parents. If - and that's a big if - RL can gain the interest of these teens that will form a basis for future pros. It will take time Of course, but I believe it is doable.

I would also trust that this is also a long-term objective of David Argyle, to make his team a success and then the game he loves a part of the Canadian sporting landscape. I would certainly trust him more than whatever bureaucratic organisation runs the game here. Such organisations have a very mixed bag of success.

[TIWIT]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the reply TIWIT, how do you see a structure being formulated in Canada that can hopefully result in the bit you highlighted, I have had some expierence in the develpment of kids that go on to have a career in the game, it is a long drawn out process that can only be acheived by having a large number playing at any given age level, where the best advance to perform with and against their contemporaries and then the cream of that crop go on to an elite level and from those not all make it to the pro game, if a conversion rate of 1 in a 100 makes it to SL never mind international status from the onset of them starting out in the game that would be considered very good.

I am not saying this because I have any disrespect that Canada can acheive what you describe, I am just intrigued how within a relatively few years of say 25 a process can be set up and functioning to acheive the required results,  I have used the term previously that RL is an organic product, I truly believe that from the first seeds being sown it will take a long time to produce a good crop.

RL is a very long way behind RU here. But rugby is played and it is very popular on the community level - even my little dinky-dink town has a team that plays in the highest provincial league.

That's where TWP and Ottawa come in. Kids see this different version of the game being played and will want to try it out. Right now TWP have a much higher profile than RU's Toronto Arrows and Argyle at all have to build on this if they want to maintain that edge because MLR are expanding aggressively. The lack of a TV deal for this year is a major setback.

Back when I was in high school football was the major sport - soccer was for the little guys who weren't big enough/tough enough for football. High school football is virtually dead now - less than half the schools still play compared to my day. It's too expensive, too dangerous, too brutal for parents. If - and that's a big if - RL can gain the interest of these teens that will form a basis for future pros. It will take time Of course, but I believe it is doable.

I would also trust that this is also a long-term objective of David Argyle, to make his team a success and then the game he loves a part of the Canadian sporting landscape. I would certainly trust him more than whatever bureaucratic organisation runs the game here. Such organisations have a very mixed bag of success.

[ojx]

25 minutes ago, TIWIT said:

Right now TWP have a much higher profile than RU's Toronto Arrows and Argyle at all have to build on this if they want to maintain that edge because MLR are expanding aggressively. The lack of a TV deal for this year is a major setback.

Looks like the Arrows are going to have their games on TSN, that is a big advantage over the Wolfpack's TV coverage.

[aj1908]

9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why? Just playing devils advocate do they deserve it more so than say PNG, France has 10 teams in their domestic comp plus two in the English league system, PNG has 12 teams in it's domestic comp plus PNG Hunters in the Queensland Cup, obviously France has a far better infrastructure and is a fabulous place to visit. This is a rhetorical question which I do not really expect an answer.

You've answered it 

Economy and who would visit png.