GUBRATS Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Just now, Dunbar said: Yes, I would agree with this. I don't think it is helping the arguement to label Folau a homophobic bigot when the motivation behind his social media posts were not hateful... just a very very badly worded statement of his faith. He was trying to help them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: He was trying to help them Yes, I agree. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMBJ Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 minute ago, aj1908 said: 4 weeks people will forget the fake moral outrage and find something else to complain about Calling it fake moral outrage is a bit rich coming from somebody who thinks calling Folau a bigot is trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, RMBJ said: Calling it fake moral outrage is a bit rich coming from somebody who thinks calling Folau a bigot is trolling. 45 more posts to go You can make it. I'm saying you trolling bc you sound like a union fan lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMBJ Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, aj1908 said: 45 more posts to go You can make it. I'm saying you trolling bc you sound like a union fan lol This will really confuse you - it is possible to enjoy both codes of rugby and think that neither of them should employ Folau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, RMBJ said: This will really confuse you - it is possible to enjoy both codes of rugby and think that neither of them should employ Folau. I knew it I'm sure you were on union forums complaining the aru kept folau after his first lot of what you call homophobic comments weren't you ? Or maybe you don't like the idea of him not being in union Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMBJ Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 minute ago, aj1908 said: I knew it I'm sure you were on union forums complaining the aru kept folau after his first lot of what you call homophobic comments weren't you ? Or maybe you don't like the idea of him not being in union I don't find it a very funny issue to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, RMBJ said: I don't find it a very funny issue to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said: Somehow I don’t think it’s going to turn out that way. I hope it doesn’t happen but can see ugly scenes coming down the track. He is a prime target for some idiots to get into a ground and make a statement. Yes you are correct IDIOTS Unfortunately there are plenty out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 44 minutes ago, aj1908 said: You work it out. Some of those questions were ridiculous. We can't predict the future but his past actions show he will repeat himself. You seem to know a lot about how he thinks I.think he would be stupid to repeat His comments but you and others seem very confident how he will act in the future Since you are such an expert on the future can you please tell me the lotto numbers thanks You've embarrassed yourself here. There's a difference between the word know and the word predict. Once you understand that, you'll understand why what you've written here is not a retort to what I've said, and you'll actually be able to comprehend what I've said. Do you not make predictions at all in life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMBJ Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said: You've embarrassed yourself here. There's a difference between the word know and the word predict. Once you understand that, you'll understand why what you've written here is not a retort to what I've said, and you'll actually be able to comprehend what I've said. Do you not make predictions at all in life? I don't think he undertands much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj1908 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said: You've embarrassed yourself here. There's a difference between the word know and the word predict. Once you understand that, you'll understand why what you've written here is not a retort to what I've said, and you'll actually be able to comprehend what I've said. Do you not make predictions at all in life? You've said i dont understand what predict means So then given that i can't answer your last question can I wellsey ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 57 minutes ago, aj1908 said: You've said i dont understand what predict means So then given that i can't answer your last question can I wellsey ? You could educate yourself? I mean, surely in the internet age, you know how to clarify the meaning of a word? You could continue to prove your lack of understanding if you wish, but it really doesn't help the pages of arguments you've contributed. Up to you which path you choose, but surely providing a positive argument trumps a negative one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 I've been resisting the temptation to get involved in this but here's my two penn'orth. I had a quick look and homosexuality is illegal in over 70 nations on earth, risking a penalty if convicted of between 1 year and 14 years imprisonment. It is illegal in most of the pacific nations. In 7 countries, the penalty is death and in at least one, the penalties involve corporal punishment, which some might equate with torture. Israel Folau is a product of his culture and his upbringing and in that context his belief's and attitudes are hardly surprising. It is also to his credit, that he has not renounced his beliefs at the first challenge. Right or wrong, he is no hypocrite. He also has a ''calling'' to preach, which in this day and age of social media gives him unprecedented reach. Hence his rise to prominence. This country (currently) are world leaders in the field of individual rights and that is a reason to be very proud of our small nation. Even so, a recent poll found that a significant minority (30 odd percent) still have some difficulty with the acceptance of homosexual relationships as normal. So this great cause, has someway to go, to achieve universal backing. Whilst I agree that his views are discriminatory, and highly likely to cause offence they are views held by many millions of people worldwide and if we interrogated every one of our players, we might be sadly disappointed at the numbers that sympathise with his beliefs. Better not conduct the survey. So, the issue remains, if we are right, and they are wrong, how can we change their views? Well we could go to war. Blockade their ports, stop trading with them, stop talking to them, perhaps. But if we intend (and I hope we do) to remain at the forefront of the further development of individual rights and freedoms for our citizens and to campaign for the worldwide adoption of our views in these matters, I think on balance, its better to keep talking. From that standpoint I think we should include Israel Folau in our company. Its already plain we (the game) disagree with his views. Rather than ostracising him, for his beliefs, I hope we can demonstrate, our commitment to inclusivity, whilst simultaneously defending ourselves against accusations of hypocrisy by our critics, comparing this decision with others players cases. The kindness shown, (forgiveness if you will) might go some way, towards persuading him, eventually, that the ancient, man-made, moral rule-book he has hitched his wagon to, so full of vicious retribution, vague ambiguities and outright contradictions is simply unworthy of his whole-hearted commitment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, fighting irish said: It is also to his credit, that he has not renounced his beliefs at the first challenge. Right or wrong, he is no hypocrite. Funnily enough, my main criticism of Folau is that he has shown himself to be a hypocrite. He took other people's money to fight a legal battle for the right of freedom of religious expression and then settled out of court for $4M and then took another job where he then promised to keep his opinions to himself. I would have more respect for him if he carried on sharing what he believed in. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 23 minutes ago, fighting irish said: I've been resisting the temptation to get involved in this but here's my two penn'orth. I had a quick look and homosexuality is illegal in over 70 nations on earth, risking a penalty if convicted of between 1 year and 14 years imprisonment. It is illegal in most of the pacific nations. In 7 countries, the penalty is death and in at least one, the penalties involve corporal punishment, which some might equate with torture. Israel Folau is a product of his culture and his upbringing and in that context his belief's and attitudes are hardly surprising. It is also to his credit, that he has not renounced his beliefs at the first challenge. Right or wrong, he is no hypocrite. He also has a ''calling'' to preach, which in this day and age of social media gives him unprecedented reach. Hence his rise to prominence. This country (currently) are world leaders in the field of individual rights and that is a reason to be very proud of our small nation. Even so, a recent poll found that a significant minority (30 odd percent) still have some difficulty with the acceptance of homosexual relationships as normal. So this great cause, has someway to go, to achieve universal backing. Whilst I agree that his views are discriminatory, and highly likely to cause offence they are views held by many millions of people worldwide and if we interrogated every one of our players, we might be sadly disappointed at the numbers that sympathise with his beliefs. Better not conduct the survey. So, the issue remains, if we are right, and they are wrong, how can we change their views? Well we could go to war. Blockade their ports, stop trading with them, stop talking to them, perhaps. But if we intend (and I hope we do) to remain at the forefront of the further development of individual rights and freedoms for our citizens and to campaign for the worldwide adoption of our views in these matters, I think on balance, its better to keep talking. From that standpoint I think we should include Israel Folau in our company. Its already plain we (the game) disagree with his views. Rather than ostracising him, for his beliefs, I hope we can demonstrate, our commitment to inclusivity, whilst simultaneously defending ourselves against accusations of hypocrisy by our critics, comparing this decision with others players cases. The kindness shown, (forgiveness if you will) might go some way, towards persuading him, eventually, that the ancient, man-made, moral rule-book he has hitched his wagon to, so full of vicious retribution, vague ambiguities and outright contradictions is simply unworthy of his whole-hearted commitment. Yeah that’s where I got to (a good few pages back! ). He’s still a young guy, let’s set him straight (no pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poower Lad Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 I want to see him play , couldn’t give a toss about his politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Poower Lad said: I want to see him play , couldn’t give a toss about his politics Business that contribute money do though. This is professional sport. It's a job, not a hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said: I don't quite think it compares to a prison sentence. When people get out of prison, they struggle to get certain jobs still because of their record, just like Folau. If HMP could hold prisoners in until they have reformed/apologised/made amends, then I'm sure they would - budgetary constraints dictate sentences I guess. Fortunately, that's not the case here. And as he hasn't committed a crime , it's not the case here either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 All a bit repetitive now - players have done worse and carried on with their careers but what about his RL ability then? Usually it takes Ex RL players who come from Union months to get upto speed for fitness and relearn the skills and moves, add in he hasnt played any team sport for over a year - will he even be upto speed by say May / June? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 29 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said: Does the fact that I completely disagree with a murderer who has not atoned for his crimes not matter? Just because the legal system gets it wrong doesn't mean we should too. The ARU also don't set punishments for rugby league, so whatever they deem a "sentence" is irrelevant. He wasn't given a time frame. His sentence is whatever anyone judges it to be when dealing with him. For mine, the very least it's a public apology and open to re-education. If he stands by his beliefs that much, he shouldn't be involved in our organisation - much like if I decided I had a belief that Africans should still be used as slaves and state it publicly (even in Facebook 10 years prior), I can't imagine many places wanting to employ me. But that would be you suggesting they be treated in a certain way now , nothing like he as suggested , rubbish analogy This is why all ' whatabouterys ' aren't relivant , in fact you'd struggle to find any analogy that is relivant , so best to just leave it and see what happens , if he ' cocks up ' in RL then he goes , simple as Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayakman Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 My first post on this thread. Its a tempest in a teapot....he committed no crime nor did he promote hate, rather a traditionally twisted view of the modern would, but not illegal. Its a freedom of religion thing really....of course i don' agree with his views but he does have the right to have them: but he is certainly not allowed to promote hate using his power of free speech and religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: But that would be you suggesting they be treated in a certain way now , nothing like he as suggested , rubbish analogy Saying hell awaits those is suggesting they be treated in a certain way, I'd say - whether it's in this life or the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said: Completely untrue. The idea of what they're saying is incredibly insulting, whether you believe it real or not. If someone told me hell awaited my daughter for whatever reason, I'd be incredibly insulted. I'm pretty athiest. As am I. How I would react to someone telling me my daughter was going to hell would range from humour to indifference to anger. And what is the difference? Not what they said but how they said it. And this is the key to the Folau posts, he may have said what many people's faith's also tell them to believe but the way he said it was crass and offensive and that is an important factor in all of this. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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