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9 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Which non indigenous peoples of Australia were you thinking of that would representtheir culture? Then we can have a discussion about it.

It may be easier for all of us if you said that rather than use code.

Yet again a misread of my comments - and an inclusion of a phrase I didn't say.

I never mentioned a non-indigenous "Australian" team. In fact an earlier post of mine said ...

1 hour ago, RL does what Sky says said:

But I never said "all white", I said "non-indigenous" which could include people from any other country irrespective of colour.

So I already stated that they could be from another country (ie non-indigenous to Australia), to which you replied ...

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Thank you for your clarification, I wasn't sure what 'an all non indigenous' team meant.

However, to answer your question, .. "non indigenous" Australians could be those who are now settled and possibly having become citizens of the country  but having come from another.

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7 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Yet again a misread of my comments - and an inclusion of a phrase I didn't say.

I never mentioned a non-indigenous "Australian" team. In fact an earlier post of mine said ...

So I already stated that they could be from another country (ie non-indigenous to Australia), to which you replied ...

However, to answer your question, .. "non indigenous" Australians could be those who are now settled and possibly having become citizens of the country  but having come from another.

For the love of god, just tell me which representative team makes the point you want to make.

Edited by Dunbar

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I just don't see what you can't get .

My original comment said ...

4 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

If an Indigenous team toured then might the politically-correct people complain that an all non-Indigenous team should also tour, purely for the sake of equality ?

So, a "non-indigenous" team ... ie: a team who are not indigenous to Australia.

That could include any players now naturalised in Australia but from another country; players whose ancestors were from abroad or even those who play in Australia but are from elsewhere.

Again, I never said it had to "represent" anyone (you mentioned that when I hadn't). I just said about if such a team was selected.

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25 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

I just don't see what you can't get .

My original comment said ...

So, a "non-indigenous" team ... ie: a team who are not indigenous to Australia.

That could include any players now naturalised in Australia but from another country; players whose ancestors were from abroad or even those who play in Australia but are from elsewhere.

Again, I never said it had to "represent" anyone (you mentioned that when I hadn't). I just said about if such a team was selected.

So, like I said earlier, you mean a team made up of any player as long as they are not indigenous to Australia?

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11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

So, like I said earlier, you mean a team made up of any player as long as they are not indigenous to Australia?

If you mean when you mentioned a team of "everyone except indigenous people" then yes. However, my answer to when you mentioned that was not saying anything against that, it was about you saying that an indigenous team represents certain people where a non-indigenous team excludes them.

If the indigenous team is solely to represent that culture then they are just as guilty of excluding players as would be a non-indigenous team ... so no difference.

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2 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

If the indigenous team is solely to represent that culture then they are just as guilty of excluding players as would be a non-indigenous team ... so no difference.

Of course there is a difference and it is so obvious that I cannot believe that you cannot see it.

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9 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Of course there is a difference and it is so obvious that I cannot believe that you cannot see it.

Let's finish this discussion.

Would it be discriminatory and/or racist if any other race and/or ethnicity had a representative team like the Indigenous and Maori ones?

If yes then Indigenous and Maori ones are discriminatory and/or racist as well, and therefor are a bad idea and shouldn't exist.

If no then you should have no problem with other races and/or ethnicities having their own exclusive representative teams.

If yes but it's ok in this case because reasons, then you aren't working on a consistent principle and you've created an inherently discriminatory system where certain classes of people based on race and/or ethnicity are afforded special privileges that others of different classes aren't afforded, and in your attempts to right the wrongs of the past you've literally created a discriminatory system similar to the discriminatory systems of yesteryear that created the wrongs you are attempting to right.

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11 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Which non indigenous peoples of Australia were you thinking of that would representtheir culture? Then we can have a discussion about it.

It may be easier for all of us if you said that rather than use code.

 

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I like.yhe addition of the Maori 

In the early days of league in Australia two Maori tours helped save the nswrl from bankruptcy 

Also the game had strong roots with the Maori people in New Zealand 

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I feel like the answer here is for England to pick a team which does not include players indigenous to Australia (or New Zealand, I'm not being picky) and tour somewhere with it. 

I don't think many people would complain about that. 

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3 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Let's finish this discussion.

Would it be discriminatory and/or racist if any other race and/or ethnicity had a representative team like the Indigenous and Maori ones?

If yes then Indigenous and Maori ones are discriminatory and/or racist as well, and therefor are a bad idea and shouldn't exist.

If no then you should have no problem with other races and/or ethnicities having their own exclusive representative teams.

If yes but it's ok in this case because reasons, then you aren't working on a consistent principle and you've created an inherently discriminatory system where certain classes of people based on race and/or ethnicity are afforded special privileges that others of different classes aren't afforded, and in your attempts to right the wrongs of the past you've literally created a discriminatory system similar to the discriminatory systems of yesteryear that created the wrongs you are attempting to right.

Firstly, I am not sure why words like 'racist' or 'discriminatory' have been brought into the conversation as we are really discussing how appropriate it is to have various teams representing certain players heritage or ethnicity.

I know what you are moving towards.  Why is it ok to support a team like the Indigenous Australians or the Maori when it wouldn't be appropriate to have a team representing the European heritage of some Australian people?

Well, the answer to that is that the world is complicated and you cannot paint black and white lines... you have to take into account the historical and cultural sensitivities and use some actual judgement to see what is appropriate or not.

I am ok if you think that a representative team celebrating the European heritage of Australians would be ok.  I am in the corner that's says it would be inappropriate.  I am happy for us to disagree on such matters.

What I will say is that I think you are being sensationalist to say that the selection of representative Rugby League teams is in someway analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia in the countries past.

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20 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

So if they wouldn't complain in favour of a non-indigenous team going on tour then I assume they also wouldn't complain if an all-indigenous team didn't tour yet the other team did ... otherwise that is not equality.

There we have it folks. Inverted political correctness has bared itself 🤦🏻‍♂️

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5 hours ago, aj1908 said:

I like.yhe addition of the Maori 

In the early days of league in Australia two Maori tours helped save the nswrl from bankruptcy 

Also the game had strong roots with the Maori people in New Zealand 

I really like the addition as well, but again, it’s the exhibition nature of the fixture that just loses my interest.

Once every four years would probably see less players drop out and give the event more of a buzz. We don’t hold a World Cup every year do we? I reckon four events rolling on 4 yr cycles. Indig’ and Maori Stars one year, 9s another (include SL teams). What other two events could work to complete the four year cycle?

You’re spot on about the rich heritage of RL in Maori.

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3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Firstly, I am not sure why words like 'racist' or 'discriminatory' have been brought into the conversation as we are really discussing how appropriate it is to have various teams representing certain players heritage or ethnicity.

They've been brought in because teams that are selecting based on race or ethnicity are literally discriminating based on race and ethnicity, there is no other word for it.

That is also what you (and any other rational person, including myself) would call it if roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams, in other words I'm pointing out your rank hypocrisy.

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Well, the answer to that is that the world is complicated and you cannot paint black and white lines... you have to take into account the historical and cultural sensitivities and use some actual judgement to see what is appropriate or not.

Firstly, if you don't have black and white lines under the law that apply to everybody, then you don't have equality, and  if you don't have equality under the law then you've got the beginnings of a very bad situation. If I or anybody else did what the Indigenous All Stars are doing then we'd be at least heavily fined, if not be facing jail time for repeat offences.

Secondly, take historical and cultural sensitivities into account all you like, but if you are going to don't be selective on who's historical and cultural sensitivities you are taking into account, because again, if you do you are discriminating. Personally, I think that by obsessively focusing on the past that you are just reopening old wounds that would heal on their own if you just left them alone.

And before you say it, sure the Indigenous population has had a horrendous time throughout Australian history, you know who else has had a terrible time throughout Australian history: pretty much everybody that wasn't part of the upper class or aristocracy that moved to Australia as free settlers from Britain, Europe, and America pre WWI, and anybody that made up the upper class post WWII, i.e. 95%+ of the population in Australia at any one time.

There is systematic discrimination and all sorts of atrocities perpetrated against all sorts of people throughout Australia's history, yet you are singling out one group's history and saying that their history and cultural sensitivities need to be singled out for particular attention, when really there're at least half a dozen groups who's histories are similarly horrendous in various ways.

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I am ok if you think that a representative team celebrating the European heritage of Australians would be ok.  I am in the corner that's says it would be inappropriate.  I am happy for us to disagree on such matters.

I'm in the corner that racial and/or ethnic discrimination, or any discrimination based on immutable characteristics, is wrong full stop! 

Except in extremely rare circumstances we shouldn't be discriminating at all

So if you are going to allow Indigenous people to have racially/ethnically exclusive teams then you've got to let everybody have them, but my preference would be to not have them at all.

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

What I will say is that I think you are being sensationalist to say that the selection of representative Rugby League teams is in someway analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia in the countries past.

Firstly, except to say that both are a form of racial/ethnic discrimination I never said that it was analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia. However in saying that I think that any Indigenous person would (rightly) say that Indigenous people being excluded from selection for sports teams (particularly representative teams) was symptomatic of the systematic discrimination of Indigenous people in Australia, so maybe it isn't as sensationalist as you think.

What I'll also say is that two wrongs don't make a right, and discriminating against other people in a silly attempt to make up for prior discrimination to another group is the definition of the road to hell is paved with good intentions, all you are doing is repeating the exact same mistakes that were made before. 

Edited by The Great Dane

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23 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

They've been brought in because teams that are selecting based on race or ethnicity are literally discriminating based on race and ethnicity, there is no other word for it.

 That is also what you (and any other rational person, including myself) would call it if roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams, in other words I'm pointing out your rank hypocrisy.

Firstly, if you don't have black and white lines under the law that apply to everybody, then you don't have equality, and  if you don't have equality under the law then you've got the beginnings of a very bad situation. If I or anybody else did what the Indigenous All Stars are doing then we'd be at least heavily fined, if not be facing jail time for repeat offences.

Secondly, take historical and cultural sensitivities into account all you like, but if you are going to don't be selective on who's historical and cultural sensitivities you are taking into account, because again, if you do you are discriminating. Personally, I think that by obsessively focusing on the past that you are just reopening old wounds that would heal on their own if you just left them alone.

And before you say it, sure the Indigenous population has had a horrendous time throughout Australian history, you know who else has had a terrible time throughout Australian history: pretty much everybody that wasn't part of the upper class or aristocracy that moved to Australia as free settlers from Britain, Europe, and America pre WWI, and anybody that made up the upper class post WWII, i.e. 95%+ of the population in Australia at any one time.

There is systematic discrimination and all sorts of atrocities perpetrated against all sorts of people throughout Australia's history, yet you are singling out one group's history and saying that their history and cultural sensitivities need to be singled out for particular attention, when really there're at least half a dozen groups who's histories are similarly horrendous in various ways.

I'm in the corner that racial and/or ethnic discrimination, or any discrimination based on immutable characteristics, is wrong full stop! 

Except in extremely rare circumstances we shouldn't be discriminating at all

So if you are going to allow Indigenous people to have racially/ethnically exclusive teams then you've got to let everybody have them, but my preference would be to not have them at all.

Firstly, except to say that both are form of racial/ethnic discrimination, I never said that it was analogous to the discriminatory systems that effected the Indigenous population of Australia, however in saying that I think that any Indigenous person would (rightly) say that Indigenous people being excluded from selection for sports teams (particularly representative teams) was symptomatic of the systematic discrimination of Indigenous people in Australia, so maybe it isn't as sensationalist as you think.

What I'll also say is that two wrongs don't make a right, and discriminating against other people in silly attempt to make up for prior discrimination to another group is the definition of the road to hell is paved with good intentions, all you are doing is repeating the exact same mistakes that were made before. 

I agree with many of your underlying principles in this post and I am not a fan of 'identity politics' which is becoming more and more prevalent which I believe is divisive and dangerous.  Does the Indigenous game perpetuate the divisions in Australian culture or does it celebrate the native populations heritage?  If the former it is dangerous and if the latter it is fine... of course, the answer as always is that it is somewhere in between.

I do take exception to your description of my 'rank hypocrisy' though.  You cite the case where if the roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams it would be described as racist.

However, as I have pointed out earlier in the thread, whether you agree with the Indigenous teams or not, there is a massive difference between a team that represents (or celebrates) a specific culture and one which states that certain individual or specific racial or ethnic groups cannot be selected.

I do not believe I am a hypocrite for pointing out this obvious difference.

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7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree with many of your underlying principles in this post and I am not a fan of 'identity politics' which is becoming more and more prevalent which I believe is divisive and dangerous.  Does the Indigenous game perpetuate the divisions in Australian culture or does it celebrate the native populations heritage?  If the former it is dangerous and if the latter it is fine... of course, the answer as always is that it is somewhere in between.

I do take exception to your description of my 'rank hypocrisy' though.  You cite the case where if the roles were reversed and it was any other racial or ethnic group not allowing Indigenous players into their teams it would be described as racist.

However, as I have pointed out earlier in the thread, whether you agree with the Indigenous teams or not, there is a massive difference between a team that represents (or celebrates) a specific culture and one which states that certain individual or specific racial or ethnic groups cannot be selected.

I do not believe I am a hypocrite for pointing out this obvious difference.

Yet the Indigenous team is also saying that certain groups are not allowed to play for them. ie Non indigenous players

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1 minute ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Yet the Indigenous team is also saying that certain groups are not allowed to play for them. ie Non indigenous players

I said not allowing specific groups.

Team A: represents Indigenous Australians and is selected from that community

And

Team B: which does not allow Indigenous Australians to be selected 

Can you really not see the difference between these two scenarios?

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23 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I said not allowing specific groups.

Team A: represents Indigenous Australians and is selected from that community

And

Team B: which does not allow Indigenous Australians to be selected 

Can you really not see the difference between these two scenarios?

No.

OK team A represents Indigenous people and team B represents "The rest" (is Non indigenous).

If such a game was organised would you be in favour of Team A playing but not Team B ?

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4 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

No.

OK team A represents Indigenous people and team B represents "The rest" (is Non indigenous).

If such a game was organised would you be in favour of Team A playing but not Team B ?

I wasn't talking about a fixture between these two teams, I was referring to two different selection policies.

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