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Blind side johnny

Championship clubs still in deadlock

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10 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

Here’s a fag packet income from a game for a club with 600 home fans - 300 on season tickets = 0, 100 @£20, 100@£14 and 100 kids comps. £2850 plus vat so they lose 30k with no gates £30k, surely they have enough from fans sponsors and owners to cover that plus crowds will be back by september

Even using your fag packet figures, it doesn't add up. Some clubs take almost as much from the bars, boxes and food outlets as they do through the turnstiles on match days.

If the clubs that are trying to avoid relegation could afford to simply write off circa £50k inclusive of the other revenue streams you failed to include, surely they would have signed one, or a couple of better players with it, to give them a better chance of achieving their goal and maybe challenge for a playoff place?

That is also before you factor in the other £50k required for testing players twice a week for 10 weeks. Suddenly you are looking at simply writing off income that equates to a significant proportion of the entire annual playing budgets for the bottom half of the table. 

Widnes were recently bailed out financially, Bradford are likely to see a reduction in attendances due to the move to Dewsbury, could these clubs or Featherstone afford to write off £100k just like that? If they had that sort of cash to simply forget about, surely they would have spent it on the current squad too, to aid their push for promotion and guaranteed funding after the next tv deal is announced?

 

Edited by DOGFATHER

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1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

Even using your fag packet figures, it doesn't add up. Some clubs take almost as much from the bars, boxes and food outlets as they do through the turnstiles on match days.

If the clubs that are trying to avoid relegation could afford to simply write off circa £50k inclusive of the other revenue streams you failed to include, surely they would have signed one, or a couple of better players with it, to give them a better chance of achieving their goal and maybe challenge for a playoff place?

That is also before you factor in the other £50k required for testing players twice a week for 10 weeks. Suddenly you are looking at simply writing off income that equates to a significant proportion of the entire annual playing budgets for the bottom half of the table. 

Widnes were recently bailed out financially, Bradford are likely to see a reduction in attendances due to the move to Dewsbury, could these clubs or Featherstone afford to write off £100k just like that? If they had that sort of cash to simply forget about, surely they would have spent it on the current squad too, to aid their push for promotion and guaranteed funding after the next tv deal is announced?

 

So your answer is to write off a whole season for the sake of a month!

Forget Covid 19 the guidance is one meter plus from next week. 
 

Guidance dear fellow not legislation.

Edited by SL17

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10 minutes ago, SL17 said:

So your answer is to write off a whole season for the sake of a month!

Excuse my ignorance, I don't understand what you mean.

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32 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Excuse my ignorance, I don't understand what you mean.

So your answer is?

Show me a resolution to the problem instead of, what we all know.
 

Show innovation in your reply. As being innovative will be the way of world soon.

The sport is too slow to have a ######. Opportunity gone again.

Edited by SL17

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7 hours ago, SL17 said:

So your answer is to write off a whole season for the sake of a month!

Forget Covid 19 the guidance is one meter plus from next week. 
 

Guidance dear fellow not legislation.

Most posters recognise that the season is irrelevant. For the long term prospects of RL as a community game we need to show patience.

Or we throw most of the hard work done by volunteers and altruistic community leaders under the bus to give a few narcicists their way.

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16 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

Do you really want Leigh to confirm promotion to Super League at the end of December, and have to assemble a squad to compete in Super League starting in early February?

Yes, would you not like your club to recieve 2M in funding?

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13 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes, would you not like your club to recieve 2M in funding?

Its going to be more like 1.5 with the reductions agreed with Sky H, but his point is that its difficult enough for a promoted team with 4 months preparation and recruitment.

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15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes, would you not like your club to recieve 2M in funding?

Not really Harry

I don't want the Bulls to be promoted right now, even with the 'carrot' of the funding. 

Didn't you learn anything from your last SL experience? Even getting promoted in October meant paying over the odds for players that weren't worth the money. That left you in the sticky stuff when you were relegated and had a bunch of disinterested players in the Championship.

Getting promoted in December would only make that ten times worse! 

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1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Its going to be more like 1.5 with the reductions agreed with Sky H, but his point is that its difficult enough for a promoted team with 4 months preparation and recruitment.

Yes I am quite aware of his point, but as I have said for a long time by the time a Championship team has secured promotion and they are in a position to 'speculate' on its playing roster, most player's are already tied up/contracted with clubs for the following season, want an example, even with the wealth of TWP in which we are informed money is no problem they found that the shelves were bare, so as I say get promotion and take the money. 

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6 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Not really Harry

I don't want the Bulls to be promoted right now, even with the 'carrot' of the funding. 

Didn't you learn anything from your last SL experience? Even getting promoted in October meant paying over the odds for players that weren't worth the money. That left you in the sticky stuff when you were relegated and had a bunch of disinterested players in the Championship.

Getting promoted in December would only make that ten times worse! 

I was answering Tommy when your reply popped up, but in the '17 season when we did go up and I will agree we spent to nuch on some players who should not have been worth what was paid, Leigh had really bad luck with injuries using 37 player's in the season,  but we are not one if the big fashionable clubs so that went unnoticed, in the early rounds we beat both Wire and Saints.

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I am quite aware of his point, but as I have said for a long time by the time a Championship team has secured promotion and they are in a position to 'speculate' on its playing roster, most player's are already tied up/contracted with clubs for the following season, want an example, even with the wealth of TWP in which we are informed money is no problem they found that the shelves were bare, so as I say get promotion and take the money. 

Thats a fair attitude I suppose, but I'm not sure its sustainable.

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10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I am quite aware of his point, but as I have said for a long time by the time a Championship team has secured promotion and they are in a position to 'speculate' on its playing roster, most player's are already tied up/contracted with clubs for the following season, want an example, even with the wealth of TWP in which we are informed money is no problem they found that the shelves were bare, so as I say get promotion and take the money. 

So it seems that you want the Championship to start up - potentially bankrupting half of the clubs in this league - so that you can get promoted just so that you'll be able to bank £1.5 million... so that when you inevitably come bottom of SL 2021 and get relegated back to the Championship you'll have a decent nest egg of Sky money?

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1 minute ago, paulwalker71 said:

So it seems that you want the Championship to start up - potentially bankrupting half of the clubs in this league - so that you can get promoted just so that you'll be able to bank £1.5 million... so that when you inevitably come bottom of SL 2021 and get relegated back to the Championship you'll have a decent nest egg of Sky money?

A nest egg that on top of an unprecedented half a million pound parachute payment still couldn't stop the club threatening to tear up contracts and nearly going bust at the end of the season.

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12 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Not really Harry

I don't want the Bulls to be promoted right now, even with the 'carrot' of the funding. 

Didn't you learn anything from your last SL experience? Even getting promoted in October meant paying over the odds for players that weren't worth the money. That left you in the sticky stuff when you were relegated and had a bunch of disinterested players in the Championship.

Getting promoted in December would only make that ten times worse! 

Further to the last post, the bit I have highlighted that is not true, Leigh brought in 19 new player's at a cisf of 1.68M to which every scribe and expert predicted they would easily win the Chanpionship, what is true though is your word "disinterested" the majority of those player's were an absolute disgrace in their attitude and performance they held out their hands to recieve their contract payments but gave nothing in return finishing 5th, that's the trouble with contracts same pay if you put the effort in or not, I would say we would have seen a very different attitude if the pay had been performance related.

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8 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

So it seems that you want the Championship to start up - potentially bankrupting half of the clubs in this league - so that you can get promoted just so that you'll be able to bank £1.5 million... so that when you inevitably come bottom of SL 2021 and get relegated back to the Championship you'll have a decent nest egg of Sky money?

No I want to prosper and stay in SL, I know where we sit in the order of clubs and we are never going to be a top 5 club, we may do a Salford of last season but I would settle for a long existance in SL striving to be the best we can possibly be, which brings me to an earlier statement you made........

22 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

But, in normal times, then I think a strong case can be made for a viable Championship that does not necessarily end with promotion i.e a completion with validity in its own right.

Have lost all ambition for your club Paul?

Like someone eluded to earlier most clubs in the Championship have no desire to complete for promotion they want to just be good enough to avoid relegation is that the basis of 'Viable Championship' no it isn't that is why we must retain P&R.

I don't know how old you are Paul, but as long as I have been involved in any sport or pastime that has enough teams to require a divisional set-up there has always been P&R between the divisions, be that Rugby, Cricket or Football, Table Tennis, Squash, even pub games like Darts and Dominoes, Snooker and Pool and a whole lot more. It is part of the British psyche to be rewarded for "on field" acheivement and penalised for failure, I don't give a fig what they do in other countries like the NRL or in foriegn sports members of this forum relate to like the NBA, NHL, MLB etc that is their way not the British way, all our major sports still have P&R and long may the  British Rugby League maintain the same.

Any club that gets promoted will have earned that right, if it is my club great, if they get relegated then it is something I accept it is the way it should be, the British way. 

 

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I was first taken to Odsal as a small boy by my Dad in the late 1960s so that tells you how long I've been following my club! I've seen a few ups and plenty of downs my time, as you'll appreciate!

I don't think I've 'lost all ambition', Harry, but I have grown weary of false dawns and crackpot owners who promise the earth! Right now I'll settle for stability and viability, and that likely means a few seasons (at least) in the Championship. It may be that we never again climb to the top division. although of course I would always want to have the opportunity if it ever became sustainable and achievable.

What I don't want to do is (again) go down that path of 'must get promoted at all costs'. It didn't work for us when we had Marc Green at the helm in 2015 (was it?). If we had beaten Wakefield in that MPG we'd likely have been relegated the season afterwards anyway, as we didn't have - and couldn't have created - a SL squad in the available timeframe. 

That's why I don't believe in promotion / relegation between SL and the Championship. I don't it works between a full-time professional league and a largely part-time league. But that's not a topic for this thread...?

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37 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

A nest egg that on top of an unprecedented half a million pound parachute payment still couldn't stop the club threatening to tear up contracts and nearly going bust at the end of the season.

Tommy, I have said why those contracts were torn up, I have a clear big advantage over you I watched week after week those charlatans going through the motions, I would have proposed a hefty jail sentence for thievery or lining them up against a wall they were an utter disgrace to their profession.

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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tommy, I have said why those contracts were torn up, I have a clear big advantage over you I watched week after week those charlatans going through the motions, I would have proposed a hefty jail sentence for thievery or lining them up against a wall they were an utter disgrace to their profession.

Harry I watched a team that won the Super League title the previous year nearly get relegated, TWICE! I understand completely the feeling that players aren't respecting or even good enough for the shirt and that they should have they're contracts torn up, but I also know that isn't how professional sport works. 

Bad investments are the responsibility of the people making those investments.

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35 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

I was first taken to Odsal as a small boy by my Dad in the late 1960s so that tells you how long I've been following my club! I've seen a few ups and plenty of downs my time, as you'll appreciate!

I don't think I've 'lost all ambition', Harry, but I have grown weary of false dawns and crackpot owners who promise the earth! Right now I'll settle for stability and viability, and that likely means a few seasons (at least) in the Championship. It may be that we never again climb to the top division. although of course I would always want to have the opportunity if it ever became sustainable and achievable.

What I don't want to do is (again) go down that path of 'must get promoted at all costs'. It didn't work for us when we had Marc Green at the helm in 2015 (was it?). If we had beaten Wakefield in that MPG we'd likely have been relegated the season afterwards anyway, as we didn't have - and couldn't have created - a SL squad in the available timeframe. 

That's why I don't believe in promotion / relegation between SL and the Championship. I don't it works between a full-time professional league and a largely part-time league. But that's not a topic for this thread...?

Thanks for the reply Paul,

With all due respect since the Bulls were relegated you have only played in the Championship that had a gateway to promotion albeit you narrowly missed out in '15  you have not really challenged since, I would imagine if you got to the position in that you headed the division for a couple or three seasons and the door was shut you may just well change your opinion and would seek the reward you would have in my opinion have rightly earned.

 

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39 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Harry I watched a team that won the Super League title the previous year nearly get relegated, TWICE! I understand completely the feeling that players aren't respecting or even good enough for the shirt and that they should have they're contracts torn up, but I also know that isn't how professional sport works. 

Bad investments are the responsibility of the people making those investments.

Totally agree with your last sentence but on player's who have a good 'reputation' and no injuries to hold them back you would think that there is a possibility of one bad signing but the majority of 19 to prove inadequate is pure bad luck.

That team should have had the desired effect and won promotion.

Edited by Harry Stottle

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I forgot to say Tommy, in the days of performance related pay for a win, draw or loss the attitudes were far different, I know you are to young to have experienced that, so you will have to take my word for it.

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2 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

 

I don't want the Bulls to be promoted right now, even with the 'carrot' of the funding.

Getting promoted in December would only make that ten times worse! 

If Kear got £1.5million, there's quite a lot of players he could persuade to come out of retirement.

?

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Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Totally agree with your last sentence but on player's who have a good 'reputation' and no injuries to hold them back you would think that there is a possibility of one bad signing but the majority of 19 to prove inadequate is pure bad luck.

That team should have had the desired effect and won promotion.

Its often a continuously compounding effect. The squad Leeds had in 2016, 2018 and started 2019 should not have done as badly as they did. But each poor performance made things worse. Its telling that of the 2016 debacle squad, only 1 hooker turned that side into the 2nd best in the regular season and Super League champions. Sometimes it just doesn't come off.

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

I forgot to say Tommy, in the days of performance related pay for a win, draw or loss the attitudes were far different, I know you are to young to have experienced that, so you will have to take my word for it.

I appreciate that H. Several mates have played up to national 1 RU (3rd tier) and below and win/loss payments are still a thing.

Even now in the professional era players still get win or performance related bonuses. 

You can't be a "professional" club and spend those levels on wages and still maintain the "win/loss chairman in the dressing room" mentality. There's a reason that is consigned to the tinpot small leagues of most sports.

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9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its often a continuously compounding effect. The squad Leeds had in 2016, 2018 and started 2019 should not have done as badly as they did. But each poor performance made things worse. Its telling that of the 2016 debacle squad, only 1 hooker turned that side into the 2nd best in the regular season and Super League champions. Sometimes it just doesn't come off.

I appreciate that H. Several mates have played up to national 1 RU (3rd tier) and below and win/loss payments are still a thing.

Even now in the professional era players still get win or performance related bonuses. 

You can't be a "professional" club and spend those levels on wages and still maintain the "win/loss chairman in the dressing room" mentality. There's a reason that is consigned to the tinpot small leagues of most sports.

Yes the 'Chairman in the Dressing Room" with an extra £20 if you win this game and on the terraces you could sense when that happened, contracts also ended the day's of the 'minders' those player's who would protect his teams star players for they would be the one's instrumental in getting them winning pay, and of course the opposition player's who's purpose was to stop the stars performing in the first place.

It was a tough place to be then.

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8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes the 'Chairman in the Dressing Room" with an extra £20 if you win this game and on the terraces you could sense when that happened, contracts also ended the day's of the 'minders' those player's who would protect his teams star players for they would be the one's instrumental in getting them winning pay, and of course the opposition player's who's purpose was to stop the stars performing in the first place.

It was a tough place to be then.

Tough, but incompatible with being a fully professional sports team.

Leigh could have and could still decide to go back to doing that, but they wouldn't be automatically one of the best teams in the league as a consequence. People like security.

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