Dual-registration to be abolished

[Hela Wigmen]

7 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Surely season long loans with no call backs is the way forward 

It is. That’s if you don’t want any players at all being sent to the Championship to be tested, the better younger players who aren’t quite ready for Super League to be restricted to a lower standard of rugby in a reserve division (if the finances are even there to fund one) and then a subsequent lower standard of Super League in years to come due to these players’ development being halted due to a lack of competitive rugby in a tough environment thus making a poorer product to the broadcasters, paying fans and sponsors and driving a further gargantuan wedge between us and the NRL. 

[Hela Wigmen]

16 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

A super league reserves is just an even more formalised DR system but less well funded, at a lower standard and less watched.

Exactly. There’s some players who definitely need DR but are probably too advanced in their development for a lower standard reserve competition and aren’t available to be sent out on a season-long loan on a deal that only suits the receiving party. 

Josh Simm is an example for that for Saints. He’s probably too good for a reserve competition and is cover for any injuries or suspensions we have so a DR with Leigh, as he had last year and looked to have done well there and stepped into our team this year without many issues, would do him well. 

Whereas Nico Rizzelli, I’m told by someone who watches a lot of Saints junior levels, is not ready for a DR spell and the reserves would have been a better place for him this year, with 2021 looked at maybe getting him out on DR. 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Exactly. There’s some players who definitely need DR but are probably too advanced in their development for a lower standard reserve competition and aren’t available to be sent out on a season-long loan on a deal that only suits the receiving party. 

Josh Simm is an example for that for Saints. He’s probably too good for a reserve competition and is cover for any injuries or suspensions we have so a DR with Leigh, as he had last year and looked to have done well there and stepped into our team this year without many issues, would do him well. 

Whereas Nico Rizzelli, I’m told by someone who watches a lot of Saints junior levels, is not ready for a DR spell and the reserves would have been a better place for him this year, with 2021 looked at maybe getting him out on DR. 

100%. We do have a certain one size fits all mentality in the game which isn't particularly helpful.

I don't see why a mixture isn't possible, indeed it seems to be what Leeds were planning on doing. The academy is now at u18s level, reduced from u19s, and our reserves are openly our u19s rebadged. Players that progress beyond that will be made available to Fev or other loan partners. Whether that will change going forward I'm not sure.

[Griff]

17 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

I'd have shut of it tomorrow.

Thanks for saying "I'd have ..." instead of "I'd of ...".

[gittinsfan]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

It is. That’s if you don’t want any players at all being sent to the Championship to be tested, the better younger players who aren’t quite ready for Super League to be restricted to a lower standard of rugby in a reserve division (if the finances are even there to fund one) and then a subsequent lower standard of Super League in years to come due to these players’ development being halted due to a lack of competitive rugby in a tough environment thus making a poorer product to the broadcasters, paying fans and sponsors and driving a further gargantuan wedge between us and the NRL. 

You seem to think that Championship clubs are there just to develop fringe SL players.Why not go the whole hog and make them feeder clubs?

[Blind side johnny]

2 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

I'd be more than happy to watch championship rugby with dual registered players.

Let SL organise their reserve competition.

Next year there will be neither, by the looks of things.

[Robin Evans]

3 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Next year there will be neither, by the looks of things.

If of course meant to type "without", not with.

[Tommygilf]

18 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

You seem to think that Championship clubs are there just to develop fringe SL players.Why not go the whole hog and make them feeder clubs?

In fairness, barely a handful have serious Super League ambitions at any one time and arguably none would lose out by having SL loan players just as we see in football's championship too.

The point being made is that the Championship is a superior competition to Super League's reserves so some teams would naturally want to loan players to clubs in it and those clubs benefit from having access to a higher quality of player that they otherwise wouldn't have access to, especially outside the first 13.

One issue that I do recognize with DR is the perceived irregularity of it with players dropping in and out of squads. But then again if DR players were so critical for a championship club the could just formally loan them.

[Hela Wigmen]

32 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

You seem to think that Championship clubs are there just to develop fringe SL players.Why not go the whole hog and make them feeder clubs?

Where did I say that? Hint: I didn’t. 

I think the Championship is a great place to help develop players. We’ve seen it with players who have come through Championship clubs themselves in the likes of Alex Walmsley, Kyle Amor, James Bentley, Matty Ashton and probably some others who I can’t think of right now, others who have gone back down the ladder to come up in Joe Bullock, Chris Hankinson, Luke Gale and others and it’s a vital learning curve for players who have been a part of the dual registration era. I can only talk from a Saints perspective but we’ve seen Matty Lees, Jack Ashworth, James Bentley and Josh Simm sent out to Leigh and/or Sheffield over the past couple of years (with others used slightly less - Joe Batchelor, Aaron Smith and Josh Eaves) and all of them are developing quite nicely having had experience at a very competitive level of Rugby at well-run clubs like Leigh and Sheffield, whilst being exposed to games against good sides in the likes of Featherstone, Toronto, Toulouse, York, London etc and having difficult games against some of the top part-time teams we have here. 

Championship clubs or at least a handful of them can continue to be as ambitious as they claim to be whilst using or not using this system.

I think there’s a place for a system in which players are sent out to play in the Championship and think something should be done to amend what we have now. I don’t think a continuation or modification of the DR system to something that’s more workable and fair for both parties would make the league into a feeder league. I also don’t agree with the “nay-sayers” who are completely against it because of some vacuous reasoning around hurting someone’s feelings or it being an unfair advantage to some teams, when we have a Championship that sees a handful of clubs throw money around each year on players. 

[Robin Evans]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Where did I say that? Hint: I didn’t. 

I think the Championship is a great place to help develop players. We’ve seen it with players who have come through Championship clubs themselves in the likes of Alex Walmsley, Kyle Amor, James Bentley, Matty Ashton and probably some others who I can’t think of right now, others who have gone back down the ladder to come up in Joe Bullock, Chris Hankinson, Luke Gale and others and it’s a vital learning curve for players who have been a part of the dual registration era. I can only talk from a Saints perspective but we’ve seen Matty Lees, Jack Ashworth, James Bentley and Josh Simm sent out to Leigh and/or Sheffield over the past couple of years (with others used slightly less - Joe Batchelor, Aaron Smith and Josh Eaves) and all of them are developing quite nicely having had experience at a very competitive level of Rugby at well-run clubs like Leigh and Sheffield, whilst being exposed to games against good sides in the likes of Featherstone, Toronto, Toulouse, York, London etc and having difficult games against some of the top part-time teams we have here. 

Championship clubs or at least a handful of them can continue to be as ambitious as they claim to be whilst using or not using this system.

I think there’s a place for a system in which players are sent out to play in the Championship and think something should be done to amend what we have now. I don’t think a continuation or modification of the DR system to something that’s more workable and fair for both parties would make the league into a feeder league. I also don’t agree with the “nay-sayers” who are completely against it because of some vacuous reasoning around hurting someone’s feelings or it being an unfair advantage to some teams, when we have a Championship that sees a handful of clubs throw money around each year on players. 

Then I'm happy to disagree

[Hela Wigmen]

5 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Then I'm happy to disagree

With what?

[Robin Evans]

Just now, Hela Wigmen said:

With what?

A lot of your post...

[Hela Wigmen]

10 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

A lot of your post...

Care to explain?

[Robin Evans]

16 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Care to explain?

I disagree on the system being used to give a team an advantage. It does.

I also think it devalues the competition and dilutes the identity of the team I follow.

By nature, it is poor for reliability and I know registered players who really have been hacked off at making way for DR players so SL teams can use it for keeping their players fresh.

I really would be happy if the system is permanently ended and SL clubs take responsibility for keeping their players in good nick.

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

I disagree on the system being used to give a team an advantage. It does.

I also think it devalues the competition and dilutes the identity of the team I follow.

By nature, it is poor for reliability and I know registered players who really have been hacked off at making way for DR players so SL teams can use it for keeping their players fresh.

I really would be happy if the system is permanently ended and SL clubs take responsibility for keeping their players in good nick.

How does it give a team an advantage? One argument is always how late these players are dropped into these teams. They barely get a training session or two to slot into a side, if anything, I’d imagine it makes more of an issue. 

The dissolution of what you think identity is not down to the system of DR though, is it? No one forces you into it and teams’ turnover is pretty high anyway, so how much identity does a team truly have?

The lateness of players being dropped in is an issue and I’d hope under a revised plan, there would be something that could be done that a) gave a player valuable game time b) provided a decent player to a club but c) also had some form of flexibility should the lending team require them back. 

A Super League reserve competition is always going to be a lower standard than the top end of the Championship. 

[silverback]

DR.Its been here far too long as it is,Lets get back to seen  local lads coming in who shine,grab a shirt and fight to keep it,Hard without reserves but its good to see our own talant getting game time rather than  a DR.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, silverback said:

DR.Its been here far too long as it is,Lets get back to seen  local lads coming in who shine,grab a shirt and fight to keep it,Hard without reserves but its good to see our own talant getting game time rather than  a DR.

Most "local lads" in the Championship have been in a super league academy at some stage or another. The only team that can truly boast that claim is London who incidentally don't have a D/R partner.

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Most "local lads" in the Championship have been in a super league academy at some stage or another. The only team that can truly boast that claim is London who incidentally don't have a D/R partner.

Don’t you know these Super League players are coming in and taking all the “local lads” jobs?! It’s the Facebook argument from single mother’s whose GCSE’s could spell FUDGE moaning about foreign people coming here to work, when most work in specialist jobs like Doctors, accountants etc. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Hela Wigmen said:

Don’t you know these Super League players are coming in and taking all the “local lads” jobs?! It’s the Facebook argument from single mother’s whose GCSE’s could spell FUDGE moaning about foreign people coming here to work, when most work in specialist jobs like Doctors, accountants etc. 

It is a poor line of argument. Tbh it does get to the stage where if you want that out of your Rugby league you're better off watching NCL games. 

Mind you I'd like to see how "local lads", Dean Parata, Louis Jouffret and Wellington Albert go without those pesky Super League players in their way.

[silverback]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Most "local lads" in the Championship have been in a super league academy at some stage or another. The only team that can truly boast that claim is London who incidentally don't have a D/R partner.

What like walmsley.? we have had some great players come thru from amature clubs,dont get me wrong if its limited to a couple of loanees it could work fine, but to train all week and know you have a chance of a good game and a possible win then opo turn up with an handfull of SL players i feel cheated of a decent game,

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, silverback said:

What like walmsley.? we have had some great players come thru from amature clubs,dont get me wrong if its limited to a couple of loanees it could work fine, but to train all week and know you have a chance of a good game and a possible win then opo turn up with an handfull of SL players i feel cheated of a decent game,

But you’d happily have them as loan players instead? What difference does that make? If they’re any good, they’ll still wipe the floor with what’s in front of them regardless of the tag placed on them. 

[silverback]

7 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Don’t you know these Super League players are coming in and taking all the “local lads” jobs?! It’s the Facebook argument from single mother’s whose GCSE’s could spell FUDGE moaning about foreign people coming here to work, when most work in specialist jobs like Doctors, accountants etc. 

Do you really think some young kids who have trained all winter think sod it when the likes a swift/dwyer/ grab a shirt they should have had on for his club,and if they stick around and miss out week after week would they put in same effort,or walk away and stick to amature game.

[silverback]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

But you’d happily have them as loan players instead? What difference does that make? If they’re any good, they’ll still wipe the floor with what’s in front of them regardless of the tag placed on them. 

NO, teams can build round the 2 loanees,and if there good enough there in shop window same as when we had minnikin/wood,and if they are here for a few months all the better rather than DR, with DR you can beat a team one week then they turn up with key players from saints/wire and rip us a new one.bin lot for me and stick to having your own squad playing best they can for a shirt,had rather lose a game or two more and not have DR than bring in other teams players to have a phoney win.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, silverback said:

What like walmsley.? we have had some great players come thru from amature clubs,dont get me wrong if its limited to a couple of loanees it could work fine, but to train all week and know you have a chance of a good game and a possible win then opo turn up with an handfull of SL players i feel cheated of a decent game,

From Dewsbury, not Batley

In all seriousness I think there is a problem with that drop in that some clubs feel, but I don't think that's reason to scrap the system altogether. Don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It could only be a max of 4 DR players iirc correctly anyway?  And those tended to be a fairly regular group of 5 or 6 players 

[silverback]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

From Dewsbury, not Batley

In all seriousness I think there is a problem with that drop in that some clubs feel, but I don't think that's reason to scrap the system altogether. Don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It could only be a max of 4 DR players iirc correctly anyway?  And those tended to be a fairly regular group of 5 or 6 players 

He wore a BATLEY shirt fella. first seen running up slope with 4 fellas on his back trying to tackle him..lol.     Limit loans to a max of  2 for a season and it will work.Bin DR for good.