Arresting the decline at Wigan

[Hela Wigmen]

8 minutes ago, Colin James said:

If it were announced England would play a three test series against Australia every four years we could sell out any RL ground in this country for all three fixtures. 

If we played them three times every year, with the series winner decided by who wins one final game regardless of the score to that point I think we'd soon struggle to sell all the tickets.

That explains why the Grand Final is our big ticket event in the calendar...D’oh. 

[Davo5]

Bring back the "Big One" them free pies will pack em in !!

[fighting irish]

38 minutes ago, Colin James said:

If it were announced England would play a three test series against Australia every four years we could sell out any RL ground in this country for all three fixtures. 

If we played them three times every year, with the series winner decided by who wins one final game regardless of the score to that point I think we'd soon struggle to sell all the tickets.

I like the GF, it's a genuine big event but that method of finding a champion means clubs can afford to lose a lot of games, it devalues the week to week competition.

The overall quality also doesn't help. There's an awful lot of clubs in SL doing nothing more than treading water. We don't get top level stars over from the NRL and our best players all go down under.

In Wigan's case in particular, as an outsider it feels like they have been so successful bringing through their own players they haven't felt like a team packed with stars for a long time. This isn't a dig at Wigan, it isn't a coincidence that the club with the best academy consistently wins trophies but there is a glamour factor that comes with expensive signings and imports.

It's ok though, people want to replace an exciting project with Toronto with another Yorkshire team so that will solve all our problems.

Another interesting fact which has troubled me for some time is this.

Why are home grown, (academy graduates) who excel on the field for the first team, against all opposition not accredited the ''glamour'' and star status they deserve by us, the games fans? 

[Colin James]

53 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

That explains why the Grand Final is our big ticket event in the calendar...D’oh. 

Wigan aren't saying anything about the Grand Final. It's the rest of the fixtures before that which are the problem. My point was, make the other fixtures less important by introducing a 'what happened before doesn't count' final and they won't sell as well.

You missed the point completely...D'oh. 

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, Colin James said:

Wigan aren't saying anything about the Grand Final. It's the rest of the fixtures before that which are the problem. My point was, make the other fixtures less important by introducing a 'what happened before doesn't count' final and they won't sell as well.

You missed the point completely...D'oh. 

But it does count because you need to be in the play-offs to get to a final. So yeah, the weekly round games have a meaning. However, there are frankly too many of them.

[Colin James]

31 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Another interesting fact which has troubled me for some time is this.

Why are home grown, (academy graduates) who excel on the field for the first team, against all opposition not accredited the ''glamour'' and star status they deserve by us, the games fans? 

It's a strange one isn't it? I guess it is because academy graduates don't tend to come in and be a star from the first whistle and fans see them develop over time. Like the frog in the slowly boiling water, maybe we don't notice it?

[Colin James]

9 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

But it does count because you need to be in the play-offs to get to a final. So yeah, the weekly round games have a meaning. However, there are frankly too many of them.

Cas reached the play offs in 2019 after losing 14 games. Week to week matches really don't carry much weight when you can reach the play offs with a 50% win rate.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Colin James said:

Cas reached the play offs in 2019 after losing 14 games. Week to week matches really don't carry much weight when you can reach the play offs with a 50% win rate.

Which is why the playoffs need to be hard to reach.

That said, a near 50% win rate isn't bad for above mid table (5th) in a highly competitive league, in fact it is the natural conclusion of it and the salary cap at work arguably. Week to week matches do matter when 3 wins separates second from sixth.

[Cerulean]

23 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Another interesting fact which has troubled me for some time is this.

Why are home grown, (academy graduates) who excel on the field for the first team, against all opposition not accredited the ''glamour'' and star status they deserve by us, the games fans? 

A really intriguing question.

The best young player I ever saw was Paul Newlove. His talent as a teenager was astonishing. Perhaps not at Featherstone, but when he went to the big clubs, he really should have been known as one of the world’s great sportsmen. There would be complex reasons why not: RL’s profile and limited exposure, a tendency of RL fans not to admire players from other clubs, but I felt at the time that the game was changing into one where rich talent is difficult to identify in an increasing formulaic structure. Lomax ( just my opinion here) may be a modern example: a world class rugby player and sportsman, only appreciated and celebrated by a narrow band of observers.

Not really answering the question you asked, but it did make me think.

[Rupert Prince]

On 20/11/2020 at 15:38, Tommygilf said:

Radlinski certainly talks a good game here. The impact of the SL branding team is evident with the comments about "instagrammable moments" and gameday "event culture". Can't remember if he talks about loop fixtures though... 

They seem to get it at least, but can they go forward and make it work? As of now we've had a rebrand and then a shirt covered in Northern soul owls - but hopefully Robin Park grows as an event before and after the event.

Hard to work out what attendances would be this season before the branding exercise.

[Rupert Prince]

On 20/11/2020 at 16:13, Tommygilf said:

Agreed. Though at Leeds and Wigan the facilities themselves can hardly be seen as the problem. And the on field couldn't really get much better for either team really in terms of the headline figures.

At Leeds I certainly think they've taken their eyes of the ball regarding the everyday fan (and indeed everything else) in favour of the rebuild. Also combined with the actually average performances we had under McDermott for several regular seasons. Perhaps in a similar way at Wigan the performances under Maguire and then Wane whilst getting good results were physical and dour and will take a hell of a lot of time to wash out of the club's psychological memory.

I think that is a bit of an odd comment.  Oh, we do get it seem some comments like that from some Wigan fans, so others say...

But frankly the excellent result against Saints (generally regarded as the game of the season so far) was straight out of the Wane playbook. 30 minutes, no fouls no errors.  Grinding down the forwards. Lam achieved it thats for sure.  Many of the team though developed through the Wane years.

What will thrill fans, any teams fans, will be exciting players.  And with players like French and Hastings the fans can have something to look forward to.  Similarly, but in a different way say, Harvard.  And remember we are missing 2 wingers developed from the Wane years.

Wigan need to develop beyond Wigan. They are doing this I think with branding and of course other activities.  All clubs need to do things other than passively wait as the turnstiles open.  

But things do change.  Wigan is a different town to what it was say in 1990.  That's nearly 2 generations away. There has been a Balkans War and at least 3 middle east wars since then. It's easy to forget what changes and what you have to do to catch up.

[Tommygilf]

49 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Hard to work out what attendances would be this season before the branding exercise.

The branding isn't an overnight fix. Indeed all of the stuff to grow crowds is long term.

[Rupert Prince]

On 20/11/2020 at 17:40, JohnM said:

In my experience, fans don't go  to games because  they serve woke beer at stadium bars. They fuel up at pubs before the game then spend the game endlessly disturbing people as they are up and down, up and down at the urinals.

woke beer ... ?   Pretentiously offended beer, or its drinkers?   I must admit I find over priced fizzy larger offensive.

[Whippet13]

I was initially taken aback and uncertain by Wigan's rebrand, but the logic is spot on and I think they are doing what is needed. They might also consider moving away from Friday night games, never been convinced that is attracting families with young kids to games.

Warrington are good at the promotional and image side of thing and we need more of it across SL but I'm not sure there is the vision or ability for it at a number of clubs.

Perhaps this is part of Elstone's grand plan for the £50m Private Equity.

One easy and cheap fix would be if the SL stopped publically shooting itself in the foot every 5 minutes, it's been one PR disaster after another recently and that just drives potential new fans and investors away.

 

[M j M]

7 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

I was initially taken aback and uncertain by Wigan's rebrand, but the logic is spot on .

 

That's where I disagree. They've seen the problem but misunderstood it.

From what I can tell they have allowed themselves to stop being central to the town of Wigan, to stop being part of the Wigan identity. Crowds have declined for myriad reasons no doubt but I feel the new logo is addressing what they perceive as a different problem.

Sport-wide branding is one thing but for a club like Wigan, what they represent and the values and history of the club are important. I think they have been sold a sales pitch by a PR agency which doesn't get at that.

The club's direct market is Wigan and it is in Wigan that the decline in crowds has come from. To address that I feel they should have doubled down on their Wigan-ness rather than try to dilute it. The brand is only a small part of the solution but if it is an indicator of where they are going as part of a wider strategy I feel they may be on the wrong track.

[graveyard johnny]

On 20/11/2020 at 17:05, Eddie said:

More high end than Tetley or Carlsberg? I can’t imagine that. 

buckfast

[fighting irish]

2 hours ago, Cerulean said:

A really intriguing question.

The best young player I ever saw was Paul Newlove. His talent as a teenager was astonishing. Perhaps not at Featherstone, but when he went to the big clubs, he really should have been known as one of the world’s great sportsmen. There would be complex reasons why not: RL’s profile and limited exposure, a tendency of RL fans not to admire players from other clubs, but I felt at the time that the game was changing into one where rich talent is difficult to identify in an increasing formulaic structure. Lomax ( just my opinion here) may be a modern example: a world class rugby player and sportsman, only appreciated and celebrated by a narrow band of observers.

Not really answering the question you asked, but it did make me think.

Here's a few facts; 

Our best players, mix it up regularly in the NRL not just holding their own but excelling week in week out. 

Our England team goes pound for pound with Australia and New Zealand on every occasion with no more that a couple of points between them. 

We do well in most of the World club challenge matches against the best club teams in the world even winning occasionally.

The average standard of player in Super League is a very high standard indeed and I'd back our best athlete's against most other's from other forms of oval ball game.

I've seen things on a Rugby League field the like of which I've never seen any where else in any other sporting venue in terms of excitement, skill, athleticism, camaraderie and pure joy. 

Now even if we accept that we're a ''small'' game with a patchy global footprint blah blah blah that not many people know about, that still doesn't explain why our own fans, who do know all these things can't find the good grace to celebrate our sporting heroes prowess.

I'll take a punt on it. I think its the average Rugby League fans inferiority complex.

That by the way, is a mental illness and could do with a heavy dose of psychotherapy/life coaching if only they could afford it.

[Gooleboy]

3 hours ago, Cerulean said:

A really intriguing question.

The best young player I ever saw was Paul Newlove. His talent as a teenager was astonishing. Perhaps not at Featherstone, but when he went to the big clubs, he really should have been known as one of the world’s great sportsmen. There would be complex reasons why not: RL’s profile and limited exposure, a tendency of RL fans not to admire players from other clubs, but I felt at the time that the game was changing into one where rich talent is difficult to identify in an increasing formulaic structure. Lomax ( just my opinion here) may be a modern example: a world class rugby player and sportsman, only appreciated and celebrated by a narrow band of observers.

Not really answering the question you asked, but it did make me think.

Paul Newlove was brilliant, at Featherstone he came in as a teenager and scored some of the most spectacular tries I have ever seen, plus his unselfish Centre play was class. I am sure there is a best tries video on You Tube, it's well worth a watch.

[Cerulean]

1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

Here's a few facts; 

Our best players, mix it up regularly in the NRL not just holding their own but excelling week in week out. 

Our England team goes pound for pound with Australia and New Zealand on every occasion with no more that a couple of points between them. 

We do well in most of the World club challenge matches against the best club teams in the world even winning occasionally.

The average standard of player in Super League is a very high standard indeed and I'd back our best athlete's against most other's from other forms of oval ball game.

I've seen things on a Rugby League field the like of which I've never seen any where else in any other sporting venue in terms of excitement, skill, athleticism, camaraderie and pure joy. 

Now even if we accept that we're a ''small'' game with a patchy global footprint blah blah blah that not many people know about, that still doesn't explain why our own fans, who do know all these things can't find the good grace to celebrate our sporting heroes prowess.

I'll take a punt on it. I think its the average Rugby League fans inferiority complex.

That by the way, is a mental illness and could do with a heavy dose of psychotherapy/life coaching if only they could afford it.

A smashing, uplifting post.

Though I'm not sure about the inferiority complex. If the cause for an effect is difficult to identify, it's almost certainly because there are a number of causes.

Apologies for moving away from the original point about wider appreciation of graduating academy players.

[graveyard johnny]

27 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

A smashing, uplifting post.

Though I'm not sure about the inferiority complex. If the cause for an effect is difficult to identify, it's almost certainly because there are a number of causes.

Apologies for moving away from the original point about wider appreciation of graduating academy players.

i was gonna comment about the inferiority complex but then thought most of the posters on here would prob do a better job of it than me 

[fighting irish]

3 hours ago, Cerulean said:

A smashing, uplifting post.

Though I'm not sure about the inferiority complex. If the cause for an effect is difficult to identify, it's almost certainly because there are a number of causes.

Apologies for moving away from the original point about wider appreciation of graduating academy players.

I wrote you a note, just above this one! 

[Cerulean]

51 minutes ago, Celt said:

That's an interesting one. What is it about him that makes you say he is 'world class'? 

He has played about 12 international games in his entire career, and all the other games he has played are in Super League. Given that a serious chunk of these games are against the likes of Wakefield, Huddersfield, Hull KR and London Broncos, can we really classify what he does as 'world class'? 

Or is that just the level the game is at now, where the ability to run round pretty incompetent mediocre opposition, whilst getting battered in the few games you play against genuine international class opposition is enough to be called 'world class'? His last international game saw his team literally hammered by Papua New Guinea... He was the starting fullback.

I know it is only your opinion... but it seems to really cheapen the concept of being called world class.

 

 

Excellent. I give way to your superior perceptive analysis, and offer no defence for my opinion.

For me (and the definition is almost certainly a flawed one, so feel free to correct me) world class would be a player who consistently challenges the opposition in ways that others - of that era - don't. A sample of the names at the top of my list would be Murphy, Offiah, Paul Newlove, Don Fox, Neil Fox, .Jonathan Davies, Paul Charlton, Wally Lewis, Alfie Langer, and a few dozen others. I consider myself a poor judge of the modern game, and so have not included more recent names.

[Cerulean]

18 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

 

Famous around these parts ... 

Thank you for an enjoyable few sentences which brought a smile to my face.

[Davo5]

His point about Lomax is still correct,he’s far from being world class,his halfback partner at Saints has a better all round game.

[Cerulean]

30 minutes ago, Celt said:

I think the difference is that those guys you listed performed well on the highest stage (international, Origin, NRL etc).

Lomax just hasn't done that IMO. He has stayed in an English competition that has gone backwards quite badly these last few years. If he was even potentially World Class, then surely we would at least be hearing about him being offered NRL money to move. The club's aren't stupid... They want the best talent after all.

Only my opinion of course - and the forum is about opinions after all!

Okay. Again, I'll say that my valuation of modern players is worth very little. I put forward the name of a player who I admire as an example of the reluctance of RL fans to praise - amongst themselves, or to others outside the game - players of clubs other than their own, a point I was putting forward.