England world cup 34 man squad 2021

[usain bolt]

Just a bit of fun now the season has finished, Oloughlin and Graham have retired and a few new faces have come to the fore. Basically 34 players, 2 teams for our chance to see the depth available and obviously once the 2021 season starts 1 or 2 others may also put a hand up. Obviously a few players can cover a few positions, giving further depth and versatility. 

Fullbacks Sam Tomkins, Jake Connor, Matty Ashton

Wingers Tommy Makinson, Paddy Handley, Dom Manfredi, Tom Johnstone 

Centres Mark Percival, Herbie Farnworth, Oliver Gildart, Zak Hardaker, Harry Newman 

Halves Jonny Lomax, George Williams, Luke Gale, Gareth Widdop, Jake Trueman 

Props Alex Walmsley, Tom Burgess, Luke Thompson, Liam Watts, Joe Philbin, Mike Cooper, Ryan Sutton

Hooker Daryl Clark, James Roby, Josh Hodgson 

Back row John Bateman, Elliot Whitehead, Morgan Knowles, Ben Currie, Liam Farrell, Josh Jones, Morgan Smithies 

Not a bad looking 34 man squad, there maybe 1 or 2 glaring ommisions, but I'm sure the majority here will be in if fit come squad announcement time. The big question though, is it good enough to win the world cup, do we really have as good a team as the one that came so close last time out. 

Hill, Graham, Oloughlin, Mcgilvary, Watkins all replaced, will they be that big of a miss.

[Dunbar]

I agree with the vast majority of that, just a couple of points for me.

I don't think Hardaker is an international class centre and I still think Watkins is better in that position than him.  Also, Jake Wardle should come into the mix as well.  If Hardaker is in the squad it would be as a full back/utility.

Paul McShane would be unlucky to miss out but we are strong at 9 and so I can see Roby, Clark and Hodgson getting in ahead of him (although I would select McShane).

If we have a bit of good luck with injuries heading into the autumn next year we could have a pretty strong squad.

[Whippet13]

34 minutes ago, usain bolt said:

Hill, Graham, Oloughlin, Mcgilvary, Watkins all replaced, will they be that big of a miss.

Watkins is only 29, no reason he shouldn't be selected if his form warrants it.

[usain bolt]

10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree with the vast majority of that, just a couple of points for me.

I don't think Hardaker is an international class centre and I still think Watkins is better in that position than him.  Also, Jake Wardle should come into the mix as well.  If Hardaker is in the squad it would be as a full back/utility.

Paul McShane would be unlucky to miss out but we are strong at 9 and so I can see Roby, Clark and Hodgson getting in ahead of him (although I would select McShane).

If we have a bit of good luck with injuries heading into the autumn next year we could have a pretty strong squad.

To be fair, I think Watkins could very well make the 2021 world cup squad. I hope he hits the ground running, and proves his worth because he can be class on his day. He was very unlucky when ankle tapped by Josh Dugan in the last final, agonising.

Regarding Hardaker, I think with him able to cover 1-5 positions, and his experience I think he'll also have a very good chance of making the squad. Maybe not at centre to start, but as cover for all outside back positions.

[usain bolt]

1 minute ago, Whippet13 said:

Watkins is only 29, no reason he shouldn't be selected if his form warrants it.

I hope his form does warrant it, he's been class in his time, and didn't realise was only 29. Shows how long he's been around, this last couple of seasons due to injury have probably caught up with him a little, but agree on his day is worthy of selection.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

45 minutes ago, usain bolt said:

Just a bit of fun now the season has finished, Oloughlin and Graham have retired and a few new faces have come to the fore. Basically 34 players, 2 teams for our chance to see the depth available and obviously once the 2021 season starts 1 or 2 others may also put a hand up. Obviously a few players can cover a few positions, giving further depth and versatility. 

Fullbacks Sam Tomkins, Jake Connor, Matty Ashton

Wingers Tommy Makinson, Paddy Handley, Dom Manfredi, Tom Johnstone 

Centres Mark Percival, Herbie Farnworth, Oliver Gildart, Zak Hardaker, Harry Newman 

Halves Jonny Lomax, George Williams, Luke Gale, Gareth Widdop, Jake Trueman 

Props Alex Walmsley, Tom Burgess, Luke Thompson, Liam Watts, Joe Philbin, Mike Cooper, Ryan Sutton

Hooker Daryl Clark, James Roby, Josh Hodgson 

Back row John Bateman, Elliot Whitehead, Morgan Knowles, Ben Currie, Liam Farrell, Josh Jones, Morgan Smithies 

 

I can’t see that side beating Tonga in the knock out stages. Even Samoa in the group stage will be a real struggle. Very few World Class players compared to 2017 and 2013.

[RP London]

surprised ratchford hasnt made your 34.. covers positions and is still probably top 3 full backs anyway,

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I can’t see that side beating Tonga in the knock out stages. Even Samoa in the group stage will be a real struggle. Very few World Class players compared to 2017 and 2013.

Not sure I agree with that.  Looking at the potential 2021 team compared to the team that contested the 2017 final (obviously there are other options available for '21 but this selection is an example).

Spine

2017 - 1. Widdop 6. Brown 7. Gale 9. Roby

2021 - 1. Tomkins 6. Lomax 7. Williams 9. Roby

I would give that to 2021 easily as Tomkins and Williams add value over Widdop at full back and Brown and Lomax is a better player than 4 years ago when he was on the bench.  Gale is available next year as well.

Wings

2017 - 2. McGillvary 5. Hall

2021 - 2. Makinson 5. Johnstone

McGillvary and Hall have been great servants of England and are particularly effective bringing the ball out of their own half but Makinson and Johnstone can do this job as well while providing a lot more pace.  I would have the 2021 wingers if I wanted to win a game.

Centres

2017 - 3. Watkins 4. Bateman

2021 - 3. Percival 4. Gildart

Plenty of young and talented centres to choose from next year with Newman, Farnwoth, Wardle as well a rejuvenated Watkins in the mix.  We certainly wouldn't need to have a second row in the centre.  Again, 2021 for me.

Props

2017 - 8. Hill 10. Graham

2021 - 8. Walmsley 10. T. Burgess

Walmsley and Burgess were on the bench in 2017 and I would say in 2021 they could be better than Hill and Graham were in 2017.  They both have a size advantage and will be at the peak of their careers.  Close one but again I edge towards 2021.

Second Row

2017 - 11. Currie 12. Whitehead

2020 - 11. Bateman 12. Whitehead

Bit of a no brainer this one.  Currie is good but most would have Bateman nailed on in the starting side if fit and Whitehead is consistently excellent and will hold his place from 2017

Loose Forward

2017 - 13. Sam Burgess

2010 - Morgan Knowles

Maybe Luke Thompson will get a run here if he plays at 13 for the Bulldogs next year but either him or Knowles will not be at the same level as Sam Burgess.

 

Verdict... To be honest, I would have the '21 team ahead in the spine, wing, centre, prop and second row with only the 13 spot a clear winner for the 2017 team now we have lost Sam Burgess.

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, usain bolt said:

Just a bit of fun now the season has finished, Oloughlin and Graham have retired and a few new faces have come to the fore. Basically 34 players, 2 teams for our chance to see the depth available and obviously once the 2021 season starts 1 or 2 others may also put a hand up. Obviously a few players can cover a few positions, giving further depth and versatility. 

Fullbacks Sam Tomkins, Jake Connor, Matty Ashton

Wingers Tommy Makinson, Paddy Handley, Dom Manfredi, Tom Johnstone 

Centres Mark Percival, Herbie Farnworth, Oliver Gildart, Zak Hardaker, Harry Newman 

Halves Jonny Lomax, George Williams, Luke Gale, Gareth Widdop, Jake Trueman 

Props Alex Walmsley, Tom Burgess, Luke Thompson, Liam Watts, Joe Philbin, Mike Cooper, Ryan Sutton

Hooker Daryl Clark, James Roby, Josh Hodgson 

Back row John Bateman, Elliot Whitehead, Morgan Knowles, Ben Currie, Liam Farrell, Josh Jones, Morgan Smithies 

Not a bad looking 34 man squad, there maybe 1 or 2 glaring ommisions, but I'm sure the majority here will be in if fit come squad announcement time. The big question though, is it good enough to win the world cup, do we really have as good a team as the one that came so close last time out. 

Hill, Graham, Oloughlin, Mcgilvary, Watkins all replaced, will they be that big of a miss.

Is there a particular reason why you listed an equal number of backs and forwards rather than 18 backs and 16 forwards to mirror the composition of a starting 13?

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Not sure I agree with that.  Looking at the potential 2021 team compared to the team that contested the 2017 final (obviously there are other options available for '21 but this selection is an example).

Spine

2017 - 1. Widdop 6. Brown 7. Gale 9. Roby

2021 - 1. Tomkins 6. Lomax 6. Williams 9. Roby

I would give that to 2021 easily as Tomkins and Williams add value over Widdop at full back and Brown and Lomax is a better player than 4 years ago when he was on the bench.  Gale is available next year as well.

Wings

2017 - 2. McGillvary 5. Hall

2021 - 2. Makinson 5. Johnstone

McGillvary and Hall have been great servants of England and are particularly effective bringing the ball out of their own half but Makinson and Johnstone can do this job as well while providing a lot more pace.  I would have the 2021 wingers if I wanted to win a game.

Centres

2017 - 3. Watkins 4. Bateman

2021 - 3. Percival 4. Gildart

Plenty of young and talented centres to choose from next year with Newman, Farnwoth, Wardle as well a rejuvenated Watkins in the mix.  We certainly wouldn't need to have a second row in the centre.  Again, 2021 for me.

Props

2017 - 8. Hill 10. Graham

2021 - 8. Walmsley 10. T. Burgess

Walmsley and Burgess were on the bench in 2017 and I would say in 2021 they could be better than Hill and Graham were in 2017.  They both have a size advantage and will be at the peak of their careers.  Close one but again I edge towards 2021.

Second Row

2017 - 11. Currie 12. Whitehead

2020 - 11. Bateman 12. Whitehead

Bit of a no brainer this one.  Currie is good but most would have Bateman nailed on in the starting side if fit and Whitehead is consistently excellent and will hold his place from 2017

Loose Forward

2017 - 13. Sam Burgess

2010 - Morgan Knowles

Maybe Luke Thompson will get a run here if he plays at 13 for the Bulldogs next year but either him or Knowles will not be at the same level as Sam Burgess.

 

Verdict... To be honest, I would have the '21 team ahead in the spine, wing, centre, prop and second row with only the 13 spot a clear winner for the 2017 team now we have lost Sam Burgess.

I was just about to do a similar comparison, but you have done it far better than I would have

[DavidM]

Makinson Manfredi Johnstone I’d go with but not Handley . I’d still have JMc before him or look elsewhere .I’m not picking Hardaker at centre and I’m not going back to Watkins . Yes I’ve been his biggest fan but Widdop has to show a hell of a lot more in 2021 consistently to get picked . I’m not a fan of Philbin tbh but I’m definitely picking Hodgson

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

20 minutes ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

I was just about to do a similar comparison, but you have done it far better than I would have

It’s a 17 man squad, in fact in a World Cup campaign you’re guaranteed to pick up an injury or 2 so it’s more than that. Comparing our best possible 13 to a 13 that was actually selected in 2017 is misleading. Alex Walmsley played in 2017 but supposedly now makes us stronger at prop.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Not sure I agree with that.  Looking at the potential 2021 team compared to the team that contested the 2017 final (obviously there are other options available for '21 but this selection is an example).

Spine

2017 - 1. Widdop 6. Brown 7. Gale 9. Roby

2021 - 1. Tomkins 6. Lomax 7. Williams 9. Roby

I would give that to 2021 easily as Tomkins and Williams add value over Widdop at full back and Brown and Lomax is a better player than 4 years ago when he was on the bench.  Gale is available next year as well.

Wings

2017 - 2. McGillvary 5. Hall

2021 - 2. Makinson 5. Johnstone

McGillvary and Hall have been great servants of England and are particularly effective bringing the ball out of their own half but Makinson and Johnstone can do this job as well while providing a lot more pace.  I would have the 2021 wingers if I wanted to win a game.

Centres

2017 - 3. Watkins 4. Bateman

2021 - 3. Percival 4. Gildart

Plenty of young and talented centres to choose from next year with Newman, Farnwoth, Wardle as well a rejuvenated Watkins in the mix.  We certainly wouldn't need to have a second row in the centre.  Again, 2021 for me.

Props

2017 - 8. Hill 10. Graham

2021 - 8. Walmsley 10. T. Burgess

Walmsley and Burgess were on the bench in 2017 and I would say in 2021 they could be better than Hill and Graham were in 2017.  They both have a size advantage and will be at the peak of their careers.  Close one but again I edge towards 2021.

Second Row

2017 - 11. Currie 12. Whitehead

2020 - 11. Bateman 12. Whitehead

Bit of a no brainer this one.  Currie is good but most would have Bateman nailed on in the starting side if fit and Whitehead is consistently excellent and will hold his place from 2017

Loose Forward

2017 - 13. Sam Burgess

2010 - Morgan Knowles

Maybe Luke Thompson will get a run here if he plays at 13 for the Bulldogs next year but either him or Knowles will not be at the same level as Sam Burgess.

 

Verdict... To be honest, I would have the '21 team ahead in the spine, wing, centre, prop and second row with only the 13 spot a clear winner for the 2017 team now we have lost Sam Burgess.

Bateman, Percival, Walmsley, T Burgess were all in the 2017 squad, but they apparently make the 2020 squad stronger than the 2017 squad. Make sense of that. 

[Click]

4 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Bateman, Percival, Walmsley, T Burgess were all in the 2017 squad, but they apparently make the 2020 squad stronger than the 2017 squad. Make sense of that. 

In regards to Bateman, Warmsley and Burgess they are playing different positions/roles now.. If you can't see how having Bateman at SR rather than centre would improve us, you are beyond help.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Bateman, Percival, Walmsley, T Burgess were all in the 2017 squad, but they apparently make the 2020 squad stronger than the 2017 squad. Make sense of that. 

ok.

Well, for a start Bateman should be in the second row and not the centre which makes him massively more effective.

Percival was in the squad but never got a run at centre as Wayne Bennett preferred to play Bateman there.  Personally, I would rather see two specialist centres in the centre and a second row there is a conservative move.

As for the props.  Walmsley and Burgess are better players in 2019 than they were in 2017 (certainly Burgess who has fixed a lot of his ball retention problems). They were on the bench in 2017 so they were in the final.  I agreed it was a close call but even if it came out even I don't think we will be weaker in the front row rotation in '21 with Walmsley, Burgess, Sutton and Thompson et al.  They are a good strong unit.

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Comparing our best possible 13 to a 13 that was actually selected in 2017 is misleading.

Yes, that is a very fair point.

[usain bolt]

3 hours ago, RP London said:

surprised ratchford hasnt made your 34.. covers positions and is still probably top 3 full backs anyway,

Haven't ruled anyone out, I did say there's probably a few glaring omissions, Ratchford probably will make the world cup squad for his utility value although whether he's as good as the above selected is there for deliberation. He'd probably jump ahead of his team mate Matty Ashton.

[usain bolt]

2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Is there a particular reason why you listed an equal number of backs and forwards rather than 18 backs and 16 forwards to mirror the composition of a starting 13?

Nope, no reason, just tried to pick a balanced squad covering all positions. 

[usain bolt]

3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I can’t see that side beating Tonga in the knock out stages. Even Samoa in the group stage will be a real struggle. Very few World Class players compared to 2017 and 2013.

Is that a problem of super league, not producing the super stars of yester year or just that the above squad that I've chosen has missed the presumed super stars out. I really can't think of too many super stars missing, so there must be a shortage overall maybe.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

12 minutes ago, usain bolt said:

Is that a problem of super league, not producing the super stars of yester year or just that the above squad that I've chosen has missed the presumed super stars out. I really can't think of too many super stars missing, so there must be a shortage overall maybe.

I think in Mcgilvary, Hall, Watkins, Roby, Graham and Burgess we either had players who were the best in their position or up there with the best in the World in their positions.

Those players have either retired or through age/various injuries no longer at their best.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

ok.

Well, for a start Bateman should be in the second row and not the centre which makes him massively more effective.

Percival was in the squad but never got a run at centre as Wayne Bennett preferred to play Bateman there.  Personally, I would rather see two specialist centres in the centre and a second row there is a conservative move.

As for the props.  Walmsley and Burgess are better players in 2019 than they were in 2017 (certainly Burgess who has fixed a lot of his ball retention problems). They were on the bench in 2017 so they were in the final.  I agreed it was a close call but even if it came out even I don't think we will be weaker in the front row rotation in '21 with Walmsley, Burgess, Sutton and Thompson et al.  They are a good strong unit.

Likewise Roby, Hill, Mcgilvary, Hall, Watkins, Widdop were all better players in 2017 than today 

[GeordieSaint]

Any bolters to push their way into the squad in 2021?

[Dunbar]

2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Any bolters to push their way into the squad in 2021?

Morgan Smithies from Wigan has been mentioned in the original post and he is a good player but if we are going on 2019 form I would suggest Ethan Havard would be a better shout at the moment.

[Davo5]

3 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Any bolters to push their way into the squad in 2021?

Ashton,Newman,Wardle,Havard,Bentley,Smithies,Farnworth.

[GeordieSaint]

Dunbar - Davo5,

I was thinking those who hadn’t broken through properly yet, which arguably all those players have.

Harvard is definitely one to push through if fit. A strong season for Wardle/Newman to put pressure on Percival and Gildart would be a fantastic conundrum for Wane to be in. Smithies, whilst being a good prospect, we’ll need to improve rapidly IMO to be competitive for the squad. Same with Ashton. Bentley is pencilled for Ireland; and I think needs to develop a stronger running game to push for international honours. It’ll be interesting to see Farnworth’s development this year.

How many in the final squad - 24?