England 17 for Samoa

[Davo5]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Be perfectly honest EW, if the performances and form exhibited last season was by someone who did not have his previously earned reputation and was relatively not a player who was not instantly recognisable he would not have earned selection, would he.

Example, one name that has been mentioned on this subject of International selection is Joe Batchelor who in my opinion  exhibited far better form than Mr Bateman last season and should have been rewarded above him by representing his country, but we don't want to do that, we select player's in the hope that they will suddenly revert back to what they have done previously, international selection should be earned as a reward of recent ongoing performance not saying he was once good.

I hope that Mr Bateman does revert back to the player that we all admired, but if next season his form is no different to this past one, then he should be overlooked.

Batchelor is a solid Superleague player who is miles off being a Test backrower,he might not even start there for Saints next year.

Bateman has proved his class & versatility over a number of years,1 average season in a team with no go forward shouldn’t mean he should be discarded for a World Cup in 12 months time.

[Davo5]

3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s laughable when people suggest playing a pair of 19 year old half backs for England who have played about 10 Super League games each. Sure let’s send them out against Samoa, Tonga, New Zealand and Australia. 

They’d offer more than retreads like Gale & Widdop,if they have good seasons next year I’d certainly have at least one of them in the squad.

[Dunbar]

3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s laughable when people suggest playing a pair of 19 year old half backs for England who have played about 10 Super League games each. Sure let’s send them out against Samoa, Tonga, New Zealand and Australia. 

Nothing laughable about it at all.  If they both have good seasons next year and they are the best options then pick them, irrespective of age.

Probably the most excited I have been about the England team in the last 20 years was when Sam Tomkins and Kyle Eastmond came onto the scene as internationals in 2009.

All we are doing by picking experienced players is picking people with the baggage of losing to Australia.  Let's trust the confidence and ambition of youth... ironically the Aussies actually do that as they are never afraid to debut quality young players.

[Damien]

28 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Nothing laughable about it at all.  If they both have good seasons next year and they are the best options then pick them, irrespective of age.

Probably the most excited I have been about the England team in the last 20 years was when Sam Tomkins and Kyle Eastmond came onto the scene as internationals in 2009.

All we are doing by picking experienced players is picking people with the baggage of losing to Australia.  Let's trust the confidence and ambition of youth... ironically the Aussies actually do that as they are never afraid to debut quality young players.

I don't think any of the established half backs have done anything of note internationally that makes them untouchable come the World Cup. Gale, Lomax et al all still have it to prove at that level in my opinion. If a young, player has a stellar season or builds on what they have done so far they absolutely deserve a shot.

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

They’d offer more than retreads like Gale & Widdop,if they have good seasons next year I’d certainly have at least one of them in the squad.

Even if all those young halves have great seasons its a massive gamble to play both together.

I do think Dodd, Lewis & Pryce have massive potential and their first priority is to cement their places as staring halves for their respective clubs. I know Dodd is being given the No 7 shirt at Saints next year and he also has the benefit of playing along-side Lomax every week who he could well be partnering for England, so maybe Dodd is slightly less of a gamble as a starter if Lomax is the 6. But we're getting ahead of ourselves, there's a long season ahead and one of the main issues usually with young players is playing consistently well every week.

I like Dodd and i'm glad he's going to be Saints starting SH next year as I think he offers far more than Fages did, but if i'm honest of the 3 youngsters mentioned I think Pryce is the real standout. Even in his limited game time so far he looks to have that real X-Factor (just like his dad).

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I don't think any of the established half backs have done anything of note internationally that makes them untouchable come the World Cup. Gale, Lomax et al all still have it to prove at that level in my opinion. If a young, player has a stellar season or builds on what they have done so far they absolutely deserve a shot.

I don't think there's many 'untouchables' to be honest. IMO probably only Whitehead, Thompson, Walmsley & Knowles are absolutely nailed on for a place. Everyone else is going to have to have a big season to get their spots in the WC squad.

[Harry Stottle]

22 hours ago, Dunbar said:

The difficult part in these conversations is trying to disaggregate the form of the player from the form of the team.  Yes, Bateman didn't have his best season and yes, he is one of Wigan's most senior players and has to take some responsibility for that.  But as an attacking edge player he would benefit from the structure and the attacking shapes that the team produces.

Wigan were poor all year in attack, lacking any structure from their halves when they tried to shift the ball.  The halves didn't commit or square up the defence and the lateral shift made it really easy for defences to manage the edge players.  I don't particularly blame the halves as the fault lies more with the coaching performance but Bateman had nothing to work with and so relied on plenty of effort and energy which I think he showed most of the time.

The same halves were feeding Liam Farrell who made far far more yards and opportunities for his colleagues and scored more tries in virtually the same role than JB did.

[Dunbar]

21 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The same halves were feeding Liam Farrell who made far far more yards and opportunities for his colleagues and scored more tries in virtually the same role than JB did.

Yes, that's a fair point.

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Batchelor is a solid Superleague player who is miles off being a Test backrower,he might not even start there for Saints next year.

Bateman has proved his class & versatility over a number of years,1 average season in a team with no go forward shouldn’t mean he should be discarded for a World Cup in 12 months time.

I didn't say that Dav, please read back I said if JB exhibits the same form next season he would not deserve a place.

[Ray Cashmere]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Even if all those young halves have great seasons its a massive gamble to play both together.

I do think Dodd, Lewis & Pryce have massive potential and their first priority is to cement their places as staring halves for their respective clubs. I know Dodd is being given the No 7 shirt at Saints next year and he also has the benefit of playing along-side Lomax every week who he could well be partnering for England, so maybe Dodd is slightly less of a gamble as a starter if Lomax is the 6. But we're getting ahead of ourselves, there's a long season ahead and one of the main issues usually with young players is playing consistently well every week.

I like Dodd and i'm glad he's going to be Saints starting SH next year as I think he offers far more than Fages did, but if i'm honest of the 3 youngsters mentioned I think Pryce is the real standout. Even in his limited game time so far he looks to have that real X-Factor (just like his dad).

Agreed, we need to be realistic with these youngsters as talented as they are.

The conundrum  with Pryce is that he has stated publicly that he sees himself as a fullback. I'd be surprised if he starts there (or in the halves) for Huddersfield next season but it would make a brilliant narrative (if we were capable as a sport of building them) to have Welsby and Pryce as the young pretenders to Tomkins' throne.

For those reasons, I do think Dodd has the clearest path into the England side.

[Dunbar]

I think Welsby is an outstanding talent.  There is something about him that just seems to make big plays happen. 

If the World Cup were happening now then I would have Sam Tomkins as full back (and captain) in a heartbeat, but if Welsby has an outstanding season at full back for Saints next year then I would absolutely support his inclusion, I want to see the ambition, fearlessness and energy of youth in the England team.

If we get to see a future England team with Welsby at full back and Pryce and Dodd in the halves then I think we are in for a good ride.

[Ray Cashmere]

28 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think Welsby is an outstanding talent.  There is something about him that just seems to make big plays happen. 

If the World Cup were happening now then I would have Sam Tomkins as full back (and captain) in a heartbeat, but if Welsby has an outstanding season at full back for Saints next year then I would absolutely support his inclusion, I want to see the ambition, fearlessness and energy of youth in the England team.

If we get to see a future England team with Welsby at full back and Pryce and Dodd in the halves then I think we are in for a good ride.

Providing Tomkins stays fit and maintains his form I think Welsby has to be used as a 14 next year. His versatility and ability would give us a huge amount of options from the bench dependent upon the nature of the game.

[graveyard johnny]

a week is a long time in politics - a year is even longer in rl- anything is possible between now and then 

[Davo5]

14 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

The same halves were feeding Liam Farrell who made far far more yards and opportunities for his colleagues and scored more tries in virtually the same role than JB did.

Not really,Farrell played part of the season out in the centre’s whilst Lam thought it was a bright idea to try Bateman in the middle,Farrell is a class act though & one of the best line runners in the game.

[Saint Toppy]

13 hours ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Providing Tomkins stays fit and maintains his form I think Welsby has to be used as a 14 next year. His versatility and ability would give us a huge amount of options from the bench dependent upon the nature of the game.

At this stage I agree. Welsby has won 3 major trophies playing 3 different positions, a GF as a starting centre and a GF coming off the bench to play 13, and then a CC coming off the bench to play scrum half.

[Damien]

16 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

The same halves were feeding Liam Farrell who made far far more yards and opportunities for his colleagues and scored more tries in virtually the same role than JB did.

Farrell has been every bit as good as Bateman for years, if not better. He is as consistent as they come.

Despite that and despite being the same size as Bateman he usually gets denounced for being too small for the international game and/or not good enough. In contrast the same people will say size doesn't matter when it comes to Bateman and he instead gets plaudits galore.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Farrell has been every bit as good as Bateman for years, if not better. He is as consistent as they come.

Despite that and despite being the same size as Bateman he usually gets denounced for being too small for the international game and/or not good enough. In contrast the same people will say size doesn't matter when it comes to Bateman and he instead gets plaudits galore.

If I am being perfectly honest, I think that Bateman and Farrell both lack size to be absolutely world class.

I would take both of them in a Super or NRL squad as they are both quality but when you line them up against the real heavyweight edge forwards like Fifita and Kikau then I think their lack of size matters.

As you say on the Brits in the NRL thread, we have lacked size in the outside backs over the years and maybe the likes of Farnworth and Young are step in the right direction.  But when your centres are bigger than your edge forwards then I think it evidences a lack of size there too.

[Harry Stottle]

45 minutes ago, Damien said:

Farrell has been every bit as good as Bateman for years, if not better. He is as consistent as they come.

Despite that and despite being the same size as Bateman he usually gets denounced for being too small for the international game and/or not good enough. In contrast the same people will say size doesn't matter when it comes to Bateman and he instead gets plaudits galore.

No question in the domestic game Liam Farrell is Mr Consistency itself, but throughout his career has he really taken that form to the international arena?

A little like Kevin Sinfield in that respect, you have to go a long way back to find any one who alone had as much influence that KS had in the domestic game, but he never lived up to the standards he exhibited come international selection against those who mattered it was simply a step up to far him, but he was selected by numerous international coaches in the hope that he would replicate his domestic form in the International arena.

So there in a nutshell is the dilemma a coach has, does he select someone who is although not performing well in the hope he can turn it round, or does he select some 'novice' who has performed consistently well all season?

Once upon a time those of a certain age would see the selection hopefuls of opposing teams to their club own maybe a couple or three times a season or on the Grandstand second half broadcast, we would be relying on the experts of the selection panel to get it right, but today with all the wall to wall coverage we see we are all experts with our own views and opinions to fuel us to visit sites like this to argue it out, but at the end of the day it is all down to the coach who will live or die by his decisions where he will get chastised or applauded probably in equal measures, but still it is good fun having your own two penn'orth.

 

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Farrell has been every bit as good as Bateman for years, if not better. He is as consistent as they come.

Despite that and despite being the same size as Bateman he usually gets denounced for being too small for the international game and/or not good enough. In contrast the same people will say size doesn't matter when it comes to Bateman and he instead gets plaudits galore.

They may be similar in size and weight but are totally different in how they use it on the pitch. Bateman is aggressive (bordering on dirty) both when taking the ball in or making a tackle. Yes he oversteps the line a few times but opposition players know he's no pushover and they're unlikely to be able to dominate him or intimidate him. If he gets his form back that's exactly what England needs.

Farrell is the complete opposite and just doesn't have that 'mongrel' in him. When your playing against guys a lot bigger & more aggressive than you like many Kiwi's & Pacific islanders he'll likely face at international level that's where Farrell struggles.

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

If I am being perfectly honest, I think that Bateman and Farrell both lack size to be absolutely world class.

I would take both of them in a Super or NRL squad as they are both quality but when you line them up against the real heavyweight edge forwards like Fifita and Kikau then I think their lack of size matters.

As you say on the Brits in the NRL thread, we have lacked size in the outside backs over the years and maybe the likes of Farnworth and Young are step in the right direction.  But when your centres are bigger than your edge forwards then I think it evidences a lack of size there too.

I agree with all this and what @Harry Stottlesaid too. I do recall saying it last year and getting slated for it though! I do believe Harry agreed at that time too though and a few others.

[DavidM]

12 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

If I am being perfectly honest, I think that Bateman and Farrell both lack size to be absolutely world class.

I would take both of them in a Super or NRL squad as they are both quality but when you line them up against the real heavyweight edge forwards like Fifita and Kikau then I think their lack of size matters.

As you say on the Brits in the NRL thread, we have lacked size in the outside backs over the years and maybe the likes of Farnworth and Young are step in the right direction.  But when your centres are bigger than your edge forwards then I think it evidences a lack of size there too.

I’m not sure I totally agree to be honest . I thought Bateman proved himself a world class edge forward at Canberra , against guys he’ll come up against at test level . He should be playing there , he’s not a middle IMO . Out wide yes size is a big factor , but other attributes Bateman has shown are also important and effective , and can be useful against bigger maybe less agile guys . I don’t think it’s a straightforward  correlation , the whole kitbag of the player needs consideration .  

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, DavidM said:

I’m not sure I totally agree to be honest . I thought Bateman proved himself a world class edge forward at Canberra , against guys he’ll come up against at test level . He should be playing there , he’s not a middle IMO . Out wide yes size is a big factor , but other attributes Bateman has shown are also important and effective , and can be useful against bigger maybe less agile guys . I don’t think it’s a straightforward  correlation , the whole kitbag of the player needs consideration .  

I know its not an easy equation.

The way I would look at it is - if I wanted a player for a season in the NRL then I would have Batemen because you know you get 9 out of 10 effort every week and he is really effective.

But if I wanted a player to win a single game I would take the likes of Kikau because of the impact he has.

Internationals are not about consistency, they are about impact and winning big games.

[DavidM]

7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I know its not an easy equation.

The way I would look at it is - if I wanted a player for a season in the NRL then I would have Batemen because you know you get 9 out of 10 effort every week and he is really effective.

But if I wanted a player to win a single game I would take the likes of Kikau because of the impact he has.

Internationals are not about consistency, they are about impact and winning big games.

Sure , but I guess in this context we can only look at what’s available to us .  We haven’t got a Kikau . I’d say an on form Bateman is one of our best edge forwards and if so I’m picking him if he’s the best option .  Him and Whitehead for me are still those in pole position