Interesting news from FEV

[bigbaldnmad]

31 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Wasn't Harry Newman on dual reg a couple of years ago? He could well be in the centres for England in the World Cup. Scored more than a try per game if I recall too.

He was, probably 3 years ago now. At the time he was on dual reg he was nowhere near the first team at Leeds, the experience gained help develop the player, which is why unfortunately why SL teams want to use it.

[Davo5]

2 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

No, it's not.

Behave 

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

So if a club has player's suspended for whatever the reason do you not think that should not be part and parcel of the club being penalised by not having the services of a DR player for the duration of that suspension, this is something that has gone on for over 100 years before this abomination of DR was brought into the game, like it or lump it Phantom but Chisholm's suspension is not really affecting Fev is it if he can be replaced so easily, the club being the miscreants employer should also feel the consequences of the suspended player.

Correct H,using a players suspension as a comparative to DR is a bit strange & smacks of desperation.

The sad fact is that the so called Superleague Ready clubs in the Championship can’t run a season without “handouts” from Superleague clubs.

[Fevrover]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Wrongs and Rights Fev? it shouldn't see the light of day.

I agree.

[Scubby]

4 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Correct H,using a players suspension as a comparative to DR is a bit strange & smacks of desperation.

The sad fact is that the so called Superleague Ready clubs in the Championship can’t run a season without “handouts” from Superleague clubs.

They want it as and when they need it. But by having it, that means under resourced rival clubs in the Championship trying to be competitive can't have it.

[idrewthehaggis]

Oh course it's a swizz. 

Another element how the system is rigged.

And why we never progress beyond the silos and the same old happens every season.

Its decline of drip by drip moribundity. 

You can not blame people if the authorities can't/won't and the spirit of fairness and togetherness is seeping away.

I don't blame Leeds or Fev.  It is not illegal. Morally tired, but within the rules.

This won't break the back. But it's another wee little incremental of irritation and I'll spirit.

A mature system would have none of this adolescent self serving opportunism. 

We need the game run as it is mostly played with courage, honesty and integrity. 

Not some stereotypical modern millownery capricity.

Eventually every Henry Horatio faces his Hobson Choice and our's might not be pretty.

Keep smiling.

[bigbaldnmad]

Just another point to add to this discussion.

Last year there was no DR, instead clubs relied on loan deals. Last year, Featherstone were able to take on loan both Will Dagger, played 5 games and later returned to KR and played well in the playoff's, and Alex Walker, played 9 games including the Championship playoffs.

I would not see any DR's of that kind of quality for that length of time, so which is worse... and more to the point should loan deals also be banned, both from SL to Championship, or even to clubs with the same division, eg SL to SL or Champ to Champ?

[The Phantom Horseman]

14 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So if a club has player's suspended for whatever the reason do you not think that should not be part and parcel of the club being penalised by not having the services of a DR player for the duration of that suspension, this is something that has gone on for over 100 years before this abomination of DR was brought into the game, like it or lump it Phantom but Chisholm's suspension is not really affecting Fev is it if he can be replaced so easily, the club being the miscreants employer should also feel the consequences of the suspended player.

I'm not sure who you think is going to come in from Leeds to replace Chisholm - he'll be replaced by Morgan Smith (or maybe at a pinch Matty Wildie or Bayley Gill).

And in any case I refer you to my previous answer about suspensions and "fairness", especially regarding the rivals of teams who benefit from the opposing team's suspensions. Presumably, to be consistent, you feel it distorts the table when the likes of Leigh and Workington in April get to face Fev minus Chisholm because of suspension whereas, say, Bradford or Barrow in April may have to face him?

[The Phantom Horseman]

14 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I don't think I need to say this from my comments on DR but as a Leigh fan I wish it didn't exist, but if it has to then find a way of keeping it with club's that are let's say not as flushed financially as some.

 

You aren't concerned that this might, er, distort the table?

14 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

This is by no means a witch-hunt on Fev a club I have loads of admiration for, but I could imagine the discussion in the board room when discussing Joey Lelula's signing, "The money he will command will most probably prevent us making other signings, but it won't matter really we have Leeds to to bolster our squad" the very same could be said that would be the same scenario at Leigh, it just ain't right.

I think this is a much better point than some you have made (as a general point anyway, rather than your specific one about Leilua). DR is definitely enabling Championship clubs  to save money by running with a smaller squad.

I would argue that the overall outcome of that is that it means firstly that fringe SL players from that 200-400th level of player who would otherwise struggle for game time are getting to play at a good level in meaningful games and bringing up the level of Championship RL, and that players who might otherwise be needed as stopgaps/fringe players for Championship level are being freed up for other clubs, either at league 1 level or in some instances at Championship clubs with lower budgets (so in Fev's case Harvey Spence has joined Keighley, Joe Summers is now at Hunslet, whilst Jake Sweeting and Jimmy Beckett have gone to Dewsbury).

It's hard to go into much more depth about the ins and outs of the point you are making without discussing the complex issues around the reserves game, but I think your general point about DR enabling Championship teams to run with smaller squads is a fair one.

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

You aren't concerned that this might, er, distort the table?

I think this is a much better point than some you have made (as a general point anyway, rather than your specific one about Leilua). DR is definitely enabling Championship clubs  to save money by running with a smaller squad.

I would argue that the overall outcome of that is that it means firstly that fringe SL players from that 200-400th level of player who would otherwise struggle for game time are getting to play at a good level in meaningful games and bringing up the level of Championship RL, and that players who might otherwise be needed as stopgaps/fringe players for Championship level are being freed up for other clubs, either at league 1 level or in some instances at Championship clubs with lower budgets (so in Fev's case Harvey Spence has joined Keighley, Joe Summers is now at Hunslet, whilst Jake Sweeting and Jimmy Beckett have gone to Dewsbury).

It's hard to go into much more depth about the ins and outs of the point you are making without discussing the complex issues around the reserves game, but I think your general point about DR enabling Championship teams to run with smaller squads is a fair one.

It can be dressed up in any garb you like Phantom, but in earlier posts you clearly said the system should not exist, how has the game survived all this time when club's had to make their own way in the world, they would group together the best squad they could afford and take it from there, player's will find their level not good enough for SL down a grade or two, not good enough for semi pro then to the community game it has been going on for a very long time and would continue to do so if DR did not exist.

This system has been designed for and to assist the SL club's there is no other reason for it to exist, the fall out of it is that it benefits some Championship and L1 club's in my opinion very unfairly and should not exist when the prize or the jeapordy is so meaningful.

[The Phantom Horseman]

15 hours ago, Scubby said:

My point is a small number of clubs having access full time SL players (from leading clubs) on tap and others not. Those clubs that partner with Leeds and Saints are at a distinct advantage. This appears not to be even done on need, just convenience. Why don't Leeds offer to DR with Dewsbury or Batley or Sheffield who would find it much harder to compete if their squad got decimated through injuries or suspension (or Covid)?

 

Sheffield, Whitehaven and Rochdale must all have been Championship powerhouses the years that they were St Helens' DR club then?

[The Phantom Horseman]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

It can be dressed up in any garb you like Phantom, but in earlier posts you clearly said the system should not exist, how has the game survived all this time when club's had to make their own way in the world, they would group together the best squad they could afford and take it from there, player's will find their level not good enough for SL down a grade or two, not good enough for semi pro then to the community game it has been going on for a very long time and would continue to do so if DR did not exist.

 

The difference nowadays is that SL clubs are receiving huge 7-figure funding sums from Sky. That enables them to offer  full-time contracts to 30+ players, which they would argue they need because of the attritional nature of the modern game.

That means that the top 400 or so players in the UK game are mostly out of reach for Championship clubs, yet only 200 of them are going to play on any given week.

No I don't like the DR system, but these threads are invariably filled with posts demanding it should be done away with and I'm just trying to explain why it exists, and challenge some of the more extreme points made against it. I don't have the answer/solution at all btw.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

The difference nowadays is that SL clubs are receiving huge 7-figure funding sums from Sky. That enables them to offer  full-time contracts to 30+ players, which they would argue they need because of the attritional nature of the modern game.

That means that the top 400 or so players in the UK game are mostly out of reach for Championship clubs, yet only 200 of them are going to play on any given week.

No I don't like the DR system, but these threads are invariably filled with posts demanding it should be done away with and I'm just trying to explain why it exists, and challenge some of the more extreme points made against it. I don't have the answer/solution at all btw.

You say nowadays Phantom, but nowadays we have a reserves League in SL again just like in days gone by when most club's ran an 'A' team and quilte a lot also had a 'B' -under 19's and Colts -under 17's, but just taking the 1st and Reserves that amounts to a club requiring a minimum of 34 player's each week, and a properly run and organised reserves League is a very very good learning ground for any hopefuls and also a way back in to first team for injured or out of form 1st teamers, now there is your near 400 player's not taking in any allowance for unavailable injured or suspended player's.

I honestly can not see why a coach would not want to keep his charges in house, all training together being up to speed with the coaches game plans, strategies, moves and playing together, the reserves enables that to happen.

As I said in a previous post Phantom, I find it hard to identify with 'guest' player's turning out for my club it just seems hollow to me, how do you view Leeds player's turning out for Fev does it give you satisfaction?

[The Phantom Horseman]

26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

I honestly can not see why a coach would not want to keep his charges in house, all training together being up to speed with the coaches game plans, strategies, moves and playing together, the reserves enables that to happen.

 

that's just the point though isn't it - if the reserve system is so wonderful and beneficial why aren't all SL teams embracing it rather than DR? There must be a reason. I sense there's a feeling amongst SL coaches that for various reason reserve grade just doesn't replicate or prepare players for SL as much as playing in the Championship does. It's perhaps a more complex issue than it might seem, including the issue of what happens to all those 19yo lads who are too old for academy rugby but not ready for first team rugby.

26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I said in a previous post Phantom, I find it hard to identify with 'guest' player's turning out for my club it just seems hollow to me, how do you view Leeds player's turning out for Fev does it give you satisfaction?

"Satisfaction"? No not particularly, though DR doesn't really bother me much more than loans, there's little difference these days, and as I've said previously I'd be in favour of a rule preventing older, experienced SL players going out on DR.

 

[dkw]

13 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said:

Just another point to add to this discussion.

Last year there was no DR, instead clubs relied on loan deals. Last year, Featherstone were able to take on loan both Will Dagger, played 5 games and later returned to KR and played well in the playoff's, and Alex Walker, played 9 games including the Championship playoffs.

I would not see any DR's of that kind of quality for that length of time, so which is worse... and more to the point should loan deals also be banned, both from SL to Championship, or even to clubs with the same division, eg SL to SL or Champ to Champ?

There was DR between Championship and league 1 though wasnt there? For example my team Workington played against Crusaders near the end of the season and got demolished, they were a massive side with pace and power and we couldn't handle them. This was on the back of the inclusion of several players from Bradford. A few weeks later they played against Keighley without these players and got turned over comfortably, then got beat at home to Keighley without them again. Crusaders went on a decent run at one point due to the Bulls players being there and it definitely impacted on the league positions, only to lose them at probably the most important time of the season. 

This is absolutely not a dig at the Crusaders by the way, just at the system and how it can cause problems.

[The Phantom Horseman]

6 minutes ago, dkw said:

There was DR between Championship and league 1 though wasnt there? For example my team Workington played against Crusaders near the end of the season and got demolished, they were a massive side with pace and power and we couldn't handle them. This was on the back of the inclusion of several players from Bradford. A few weeks later they played against Keighley without these players and got turned over comfortably, then got beat at home to Keighley without them again. Crusaders went on a decent run at one point due to the Bulls players being there and it definitely impacted on the league positions, only to lose them at probably the most important time of the season. 

 

No, and this illustrates my point pefectly about there being next to no difference between DR and loans. There was no DR at all last season, and yet the same issues are being brought up.

[dkw]

6 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

No, and this illustrates my point pefectly about there being next to no difference between DR and loans. There was no DR at all last season, and yet the same issues are being brought up.

Ah right, I thought it was DR but a quick google shows it was just a link up to loan players. As you say, its a bit of a shambles, the only way round any of this is to regulate the Loan and DR systems better. So have some certain criteria for both the lending club and the receiving club to hit. Have all player movement set to a minimum/maximum length of time, try and limit impact on the receiving clubs signed available players etc. There will obviously be loop holes in some of this, but at least try and put something in place. Currently its pretty much a free for all.

[Harry Stottle]

46 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

No, and this illustrates my point pefectly about there being next to no difference between DR and loans. There was no DR at all last season, and yet the same issues are being brought up

All you are doing is trying to substantiate two wrongs making a right. As I stated earlier Loans should be of extended period either 3 months minimum or Season long, other wise it is no different as you point out to DR.

[Harry Stottle]

44 minutes ago, dkw said:

Ah right, I thought it was DR but a quick google shows it was just a link up to loan players. As you say, its a bit of a shambles, the only way round any of this is to regulate the Loan and DR systems better. So have some certain criteria for both the lending club and the receiving club to hit. Have all player movement set to a minimum/maximum length of time, try and limit impact on the receiving clubs signed available players etc. There will obviously be loop holes in some of this, but at least try and put something in place. Currently its pretty much a free for all.

Nothing different will be tried DKW, the system is designed for SL club's to utilise everything else is just fall out.

[The Phantom Horseman]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

All you are doing is trying to substantiate two wrongs making a right. As I stated earlier Loans should be of extended period either 3 months minimum or Season long, other wise it is no different as you point out to DR.

Fine by me, I'm just saying the two have been pretty much indistinguishable for some time. My personal view is that DR doesn't have quite the major impact on results that some people on here believe, especially when compared with other variables - hence why I cited Fev losing 10 games in 2019 with DR but only one in 2021 without DR. But I understand that others disagree.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Fine by me, I'm just saying the two have been pretty much indistinguishable for some time. My personal view is that DR doesn't have quite the major impact on results that some people on here believe, especially when compared with other variables - hence why I cited Fev losing 10 games in 2019 with DR but only one in 2021 without DR. But I understand that others disagree.

So Fev will be better not utilising Leeds personnel this coming season?

[The Phantom Horseman]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So Fev will be better not utilising Leeds personnel this coming season?

Proving that something does not have a major positive impact is not the same thing as proving that it has a negative impact.

I don't think DR generally has a huge beneficial impact on a team's performance. I think the impact is generally over-rated.

[dead man inc]

44 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

...I don't think DR generally has a huge beneficial impact on a team's performance. I think the impact is generally over-rated.

If DR/loans did not help & was not an advantage then they would not use it!

[The Phantom Horseman]

6 minutes ago, dead man inc said:

If DR/loans did not help & was not an advantage then they would not use it!

Read the comment you quoted me on again. This a thread where people have been talking about the whole season being skewed etc, I think the impact of DR is over-rated.

[dkw]

6 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Read the comment you quoted me on again. This a thread where people have been talking about the whole season being skewed etc, I think the impact of DR is over-rated.

You're wrong, it does, I've seen it. It especially impacts clubs who arent then allowed to play those DR players in the play offs.

It also doesnt help with your squad, I know for a fact players have left clubs due to being displaced by DR players.