How do we furnish a promoted team?

[Snowys Backside]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

I'm fine with how things are now , although IMO the Championship should start on boxing Day and finish earlier 

Boxing Day Start, like the good old days

[Davo5]

13 hours ago, Derwent said:

Mont v Brow game ?

Correct.

[Tommygilf]

I'm not surprised fans of clubs in a league where their club has been institutionally advantaged for well over half a decade would want the rules changing for their benefit only when they come to a league that doesn't have the same advantages for them.

[Harry Stottle]

53 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm not surprised fans of clubs in a league where their club has been institutionally advantaged for well over half a decade would want the rules changing for their benefit only when they come to a league that doesn't have the same advantages for them.

Correct Thomas, like a third of the funding withheld.

[Saint Toppy]

15 hours ago, RP London said:

You just dont let them get to the last year of their contract... also, as with any draft, you could trade around to get it but then money goes to the team coming lower that you trade with, or maybe you get 2 players instead of 1... there are plenty of ways of making something work.. but why not try something different.. if Saints want to keep their players you just get them to sign a 2 year contract in September of the year before they go off contract.. not difficult

You still haven't explained how you can 'make it work' by forcing a player to join a club they don't want to play for and possibly for a salary they don't want to accept ??? (and that's even before you consider the legal position on restraints of trade)

[RP London]

33 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

You still haven't explained how you can 'make it work' by forcing a player to join a club they don't want to play for and possibly for a salary they don't want to accept ??? (and that's even before you consider the legal position on restraints of trade)

How do the Americans do it? How does the IPL do it? How does the Hundred do it in the UK? Why should I have all the answers, I'm not a sports administrator (which I quite clearly pointed out in the first post i made on this) but all of this is not unprecedented and can, and is, done across the world in different sports. Call it a draft or an auction or whatever you want but the principle of being chose and having to go and play somewhere is the same. 

The roadblocks you have put in place can be got past, exactly how you do it to make it work best for the sport is down to the sport. But restraint of trade, acceptance by the players etc its done elsewhere and even in the UK and there doesnt seem to be a massive issue with any of it.

Its not something I am overly advocating it is simply an idea to solve the problem originally mentioned which is definitely a thing. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by RP London

[Saint Toppy]

15 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Whilst this may be so, the consequences of a few clubs having Academies and an even fewer clubs having "excellent" academies warps the competitiveness of SL.

I will repeat this. if a few elite clubs dominant the best of Academy level talent by good and not so good reasons, then the Salary Cap dispensations given pretty much ensure that the chosen few can also pay the extra for non club produced talent.

Any half decent player produced by a "minnow" club is therefore snapped up when their contract ends.

If you want to make SL less of a bored parade of the same again each year,  you need to address this.

My thoughts-

Central contracting

Regional academies

Ring fenced central funding to ensure every SL club has a Marquee signing.

 

Ever thought that the reason there's such a disparity is that some clubs are prepared to invest time, effort & money into their academies and then persevere with those youngsters and regularly promote them into their 1st team, and its this that then makes them more attractive to the next generation of young players looking for their first clubs ?

Central contracting, regional academies etc. doesn't solve the problem, it just rewards to clubs who are poor at development and penalises the clubs that are good at it (also ignoring the fact the RL are pretty useless anyway and couldn't manage a £$%^ up in a brewery let alone a player contract system).

If you really want to raise the bar then force the poor clubs to improve. Make Academy licencing mandatory, force every club to invest a minimum amount every year in their Academy set-up's and employ people in key development positions. You then carry that through to the 1st team by having a mandatory number of Academy players that every 1st team squad must have in their top 25 (say 10). You can then have further financial incentives to beyond the minimum with something like SC dispensations along the lines of every academy player in your top 25 players above the minimum limit of 10 you can have say 25% of their salary not count on the cap. So if you have 15 Academy players in your top 25 then 5 of them have the salaries only count 75% on the cap. 

Its no coincidence that the 3 most successful SL clubs have the 3 best academies and the best record of consistently bringing through those youngsters into the 1st team over a long period of time. 

 

[Damien]

35 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct Thomas, like a third of the funding withheld.

I completely disagree with that and you are quite correct, all SL clubs should get the same. That said I also disagreed with it in the Championship when some clubs got only one third of the funding that Leigh did. Something you defended. You seem to want it all ways just to suit your own club. Now its special treatment because your team is loaded with overseas players when for years you moaned about the likes of Toronto and Catalans being full of them. You should at least be consistent with your arguments.

[Saint Toppy]

4 minutes ago, RP London said:

How do the Americans do it? How does the IPL do it? How does the Hundred do it in the UK? Why should I have all the answers, I'm not a sports administrator (which I quite clearly pointed out in the first post i made on this) but all of this is not unprecedented and can, and is, done across the world in different sports. Call it a draft or an auction or whatever you want but the principle of being chose and having to go and play somewhere is the same. 

The roadblocks you have put in place can be got past, exactly how you do it to make it work best for the sport is down to the sport. But restraint of trade, acceptance by the players etc its done elsewhere and even in the UK and there doesnt seem to be a massive issue with any of it.

 

As i've just said in my response to idrewthehaggis, why do we even need any sort of draft system ? - The problem doesn't lie with the system, its lies with the clubs, specifically the ones who can't be bothered.

If every club put as much time, effort & money into junior development then there wouldn't be a disparity and young players would have a wide choice of clubs to pick from all with a near equal chance of letting them fulfill their dreams of being 1st team players.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct Thomas, like a third of the funding withheld.

Imagine if they had taken up Mr Beaumont's original offer!

[The Blues Ox]

18 hours ago, Damien said:

Great argument, 1 player. I'm sure there's English players in the Championship good enough for SL too. The very fact Ferguson ended up at Leigh doesn't exactly indicate he was inundated with offers from other clubs. Also what about the 11 or so other overseas Leigh players? Are you trying to say they are all SL standard too?

But most of them were signed after SL clubs had filled their quotas and came available late. I think most would get a gig in SL and most of them if not all of them are better than some of the players that play in SL currently which kind of supports my argument that Leigh have improved the overall quality of the full time playing pool in the game over here.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

As i've just said in my response to idrewthehaggis, why do we even need any sort of draft system ? - The problem doesn't lie with the system, its lies with the clubs, specifically the ones who can't be bothered.

If every club put as much time, effort & money into junior development then there wouldn't be a disparity and young players would have a wide choice of clubs to pick from all with a near equal chance of letting them fulfill their dreams of being 1st team players.

I am not talking about a Draft system of academy players i am using the word "draft" to describe the system, it could also be an auction but its about players coming off contract and therefore already decided they are leaving the club they are at (or the club already deciding they are leaving) and so senior players. 

The problem that i was responding to was about teams coming up not having the pick of the super league standard senior, experienced, players because they were already signed up to clubs that were guaranteed Super League status. Therefore leaving the dregs to be scooped up by whoever may scrape staying in the league or get promoted.. That is not going to necessarily be solved by getting the academies sorted out (however, i do agree they must be a high priority in general).. it MAY be helped with this system of having a pool of off contract players that everyone can have a go at all at the same time, including the promoted club, players that would not have been available to the promoted club in the current way of it working because they would have already signed for another club pre the end of the season etc but they wouldnt look at a club that "maybe" be relegated or one that isnt guaranteed promotion. Therefore leaving the almost never ending promoted team being relegated. 

There isn't endless money for academies, they cannot be set up immediately and reap rewards immediately so they are a long term fix (potentially to a different problem as well) rather than a short term fix. They also arent an either/or they could both be done together. 

 

 

[The Blues Ox]

18 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Clubs would just instantly give up on investing heavily in their youth development if they knew any other club could just come in and take them at the end of their contracts.

Ah how the other half live.

[The Blues Ox]

9 minutes ago, RP London said:

I am not talking about a Draft system of academy players i am using the word "draft" to describe the system, it could also be an auction but its about players coming off contract and therefore already decided they are leaving the club they are at (or the club already deciding they are leaving) and so senior players. 

The problem that i was responding to was about teams coming up not having the pick of the super league standard senior, experienced, players because they were already signed up to clubs that were guaranteed Super League status. Therefore leaving the dregs to be scooped up by whoever may scrape staying in the league or get promoted.. That is not going to necessarily be solved by getting the academies sorted out (however, i do agree they must be a high priority in general).. it MAY be helped with this system of having a pool of off contract players that everyone can have a go at all at the same time, including the promoted club, players that would not have been available to the promoted club in the current way of it working because they would have already signed for another club pre the end of the season etc but they wouldnt look at a club that "maybe" be relegated or one that isnt guaranteed promotion. Therefore leaving the almost never ending promoted team being relegated. 

There isn't endless money for academies, they cannot be set up immediately and reap rewards immediately so they are a long term fix (potentially to a different problem as well) rather than a short term fix. They also arent an either/or they could both be done together. 

 

 

I love the idea of some sort of free agency draft like they have in the NFL but the lack of money in our sport probably makes this very difficult as players don't want to leave it so late before sorting contracts out as they get paid very little as it is and it would be a huge risk which would mean the RFL putting some money aside as guarentees for players or putting aside central funding, again though SL clubs won't want that as most would struggle with any sort of cut in funding. 

 

Imagine for the team coming up to have a chance of been able to sign any of the best players and also imagine for the players knowing that they may get a bigger offer from the promoted team than other teams that already have most of their team in place.

Edited May 31, 2022 by The Blues Ox

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

But most of them were signed after SL clubs had filled their quotas and came available late. I think most would get a gig in SL and most of them if not all of them are better than some of the players that play in SL currently which kind of supports my argument that Leigh have improved the overall quality of the full time playing pool in the game over here.

Ah so 12 players only came available after every SL finished their recruitment and they would have snapped them up otherwise. I see. I guess we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Saint Toppy]

29 minutes ago, RP London said:

I am not talking about a Draft system of academy players i am using the word "draft" to describe the system, it could also be an auction but its about players coming off contract and therefore already decided they are leaving the club they are at (or the club already deciding they are leaving) and so senior players. 

The problem that i was responding to was about teams coming up not having the pick of the super league standard senior, experienced, players because they were already signed up to clubs that were guaranteed Super League status. Therefore leaving the dregs to be scooped up by whoever may scrape staying in the league or get promoted.. That is not going to necessarily be solved by getting the academies sorted out (however, i do agree they must be a high priority in general).. it MAY be helped with this system of having a pool of off contract players that everyone can have a go at all at the same time, including the promoted club, players that would not have been available to the promoted club in the current way of it working because they would have already signed for another club pre the end of the season etc but they wouldnt look at a club that "maybe" be relegated or one that isnt guaranteed promotion. Therefore leaving the almost never ending promoted team being relegated. 

 

I'm sure players will love that kind of proposal, being made to wait until the end of the season, unable to sign up with another club, left waiting to find out if anyone wants to sign them. These aren't PL footballers here with millions in the bank and the freedom to pick & choose where they go and wait it out until they get an offer they're happy with. Pretty much every RL player has a mortgage to pay and a family to look after. They don't have the luxury of being able to just wait until October to be able to know if they'll have their next work contract.

I'm sorry but any sort of system that puts this amount of stress and pressure on players is both unfair and unfeasible all for the sake of helping 1 promoted team be able to stay up. Plenty of clubs in the past have shown if they have the right funding & structures in place they can stay up anyway. Championship clubs can spend the same cap as SL clubs exactly for this reason, the only thing they don't have is access to the SL TV monies so they have to fund their promotion campaign themselves.

Of all the things that need fixing in the game this isn't something that's a major problem that needs changing.

[RP London]

36 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

I love the idea of some sort of free agency draft like they have in the NFL but the lack of money in our sport probably makes this very difficult as players don't want to leave it so late before sorting contracts out as they get paid very little as it is and it would be a huge risk which would mean the RFL putting some money aside as guarentees for players or putting aside central funding, again though SL clubs won't want that as most would struggle with any sort of cut in funding. 

 

Imagine for the team coming up to have a chance of been able to sign any of the best players and also imagine for the players knowing that they may get a bigger offer from the promoted team than other teams that already have most of their team in place.

I think the big hurdle, as with a lot of these things, is a change in mentality (and I am not down playing this at all). The key would be that they would still be in the same position but it all just gets sorted out a little later, but there are arguably 1-2 more teams in the mix to take them, as the promoted and "battling relegation" teams will be known to be in Super League next year. These teams could be ones that those players would love to play for but wouldnt sign for earlier due to the uncertainty of not knowing which league they were in. 

Those teams also would still have the spots to fill as they would simply have not filled them earlier. So we may actually find more gaps for those players to go to than there were realistically earlier on. 

As i say the big thing is a mental thing that it is just a bit different, the outcome arguably being similar but with the addition of another team or 2 in the mix. Other people could put their hands up to be in the "draft" if they wanted to as well, Champ, league one, NRL players, queensland cup, french, serbian, RU etc etc etc because it would be anyone without a contract tying them to a club. If players aren't getting chosen then it is likely that under the system we have now they would not have got another contract anyway and therefore they have to look at champ etc. Its almost a simple case of pushing the decision (for club and player) later so that the promoted team and nearly relegated team(s) get a chance to bring better players to the club than they do at the moment for obvious reasons.

[RP London]

7 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I'm sure players will love that kind of proposal, being made to wait until the end of the season, unable to sign up with another club, left waiting to find out if anyone wants to sign them. These aren't PL footballers here with millions in the bank and the freedom to pick & choose where they go and wait it out until they get an offer they're happy with. Pretty much every RL player has a mortgage to pay and a family to look after. They don't have the luxury of being able to just wait until October to be able to know if they'll have their next work contract.

I'm sorry but any sort of system that puts this amount of stress and pressure on players is both unfair and unfeasible all for the sake of helping 1 promoted team be able to stay up. Plenty of clubs in the past have shown if they have the right funding & structures in place they can stay up anyway. Championship clubs can spend the same cap as SL clubs exactly for this reason, the only thing they don't have is access to the SL TV monies so they have to fund their promotion campaign themselves.

Of all the things that need fixing in the game this isn't something that's a major problem that needs changing.

ok, don't contribute to the thread then if you don't think its an issue.. this is just people putting forward ideas to solve a problem that they believe is worth fixing. No one is saying theirs is the right way to do it.. and as I said right at the start, this is just an idea with issues that would potentially need ironing out (though I think there are plenty of players who could get better deals out of this system too). 

 

[paulwalker71]

There's been a few posts proposing shifting the season to start on Boxing Day and thus finishing earlier so there's a greater access to the player pool for the promoted club.

Honestly, I can't see how that would help

The season starts on the last weekend on January now, so moving to Boxing Day is only going to shift the end of the season to the end of August at best

Since players can sign for clubs from May 1st how would that help the promoted club any more than what we have now?

It would presuambly just make SL clubs and agents get deals done a few weeks earlier than they are now.

Am I missing something here?

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Ah so 12 players only came available after every SL finished their recruitment and they would have snapped them up otherwise. I see. I guess we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

You see that is where there is a flaw in your thinking. Even if those 12 players had been available before the season that does not mean that any SL teams would have gone to sign them but it also does not mean that those 12 players are not good enough to play in SL or better than some of the players already in SL teams its just that SL teams are obviously restricted where as Leigh are not. Now obviously it wasn't the case that they were all available straight away but ignoring that does not chnage the fact that in signing those players Leigh have improved the overall strength of the full time playing pool over here which is what I had originally stated.

[Saint Toppy]

34 minutes ago, RP London said:

ok, don't contribute to the thread then if you don't think its an issue.. this is just people putting forward ideas to solve a problem that they believe is worth fixing. No one is saying theirs is the right way to do it.. and as I said right at the start, this is just an idea with issues that would potentially need ironing out (though I think there are plenty of players who could get better deals out of this system too). 

 

Happy to agree to disagree whether this is even an issue to begin with, but don't get all arsey just because all your ideas aren't remotely feasible for RL.

Making players wait until October to find out if they still have a full time job for the coming year just doesn't work, not in a sport like RL where players don't get paid vast sums of money. Having some sort of Central RL system doesn't work when the governing body hardly has a pot to p$$$ in and has a pretty poor record when it comes to managing the game as a whole let alone having to manage individual player contracts as well.

[RP London]

51 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Happy to agree to disagree whether this is even an issue to begin with, but don't get all arsey just because all your ideas aren't remotely feasible for RL.

Making players wait until October to find out if they still have a full time job for the coming year just doesn't work, not in a sport like RL where players don't get paid vast sums of money. Having some sort of Central RL system doesn't work when the governing body hardly has a pot to p$$$ in and has a pretty poor record when it comes to managing the game as a whole let alone having to manage individual player contracts as well.

Why am i getting arsey?? I'm simply saying that if you don't agree the problem exists have that discussion if you want,. i just see little logic in discussing the ideas to solve that problem.. 

Anyhow, the idea is feasible and is done by loads of sports across the world and in the UK. Some have vast sums of money and some not so much. There are plenty of jobs (and sports) in this country that are contract based and you don't necessarily have a contract lined up afterwards either yet they seem to manage. Even with the system in place today you have players that don't know what will happen as no one is offering them contracts and wait till the end of the season when they know if they will be staying up etc. Equally you may find more job security as players start being given a contract a year earlier or a 2 year instead of 1 year contract as the current club doesn't want to take a risk. 

What you seem concerned about will only affect a small number of people, a similar number of people who already have this issue anyway, for others the clubs will adapt and for some this system would potentially make things better.. 

I even admit in my first post that there are potential issues that would need to be addressed, I also say its about aligning transfers so that you give the promoted team a chance, it doesn't have to be a "draft" (as i say) it could be something different, just allowing the same open discussion but at the end not the beginning of a season, but signing players in May when you have no idea the format of the league and the teams in it seems chronically unfair on the teams that are around the bottom or trying to get promoted. This obviously doesnt bother you at all, which is fine, but I personally feel that having those new teams competitive and able to shake things up a bit is good for the game. 

But we're not going to agree so I shall leave it there.

Edited May 31, 2022 by RP London

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Imagine if they had taken up Mr Beaumont's original offer!

Yeah it's a consensus of opinion he is a Richard Cranium, on that topic I certainly agreed with them.

But good sidestep from "where their club has been institutionally advantaged for well over half a decade"

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

Now its special treatment because your team is loaded with overseas players when for years you moaned about the likes of Toronto and Catalans being full of them. You should at least be consistent with your arguments

Nah, If you cant beat em join em.

I was a shop steward at 19 and a staunch Labour supporter and waved the red flag, but I got myself into buisness and gradually changed to the blue side in looking after No 1.

[Saint Toppy]

20 minutes ago, RP London said:

Why am i getting arsey?? I'm simply saying that if you don't agree the problem exists have that discussion if you want,. i just see little logic in discussing the ideas to solve that problem.. 

Anyhow, the idea is feasible and is done by loads of sports across the world and in the UK. Some have vast sums of money and some not so much. There are plenty of jobs (and sports) in this country that are contract based and you don't necessarily have a contract lined up afterwards either yet they seem to manage. Even with the system in place today you have players that don't know what will happen as no one is offering them contracts and wait till the end of the season when they know if they will be staying up etc. Equally you may find more job security as players start being given a contract a year earlier or a 2 year instead of 1 year contract as the current club doesn't want to take a risk. 

What you seem concerned about will only affect a small number of people, a similar number of people who already have this issue anyway, for others the clubs will adapt and for some this system would potentially make things better.. 

I even admit in my first post that there are potential issues that would need to be addressed, I also say its about aligning transfers so that you give the promoted team a chance, it doesn't have to be a "draft" (as i say) it could be something different, just allowing the same open discussion but at the end not the beginning of a season, but signing players in May when you have no idea the format of the league and the teams in it seems chronically unfair on the teams that are around the bottom or trying to get promoted. This obviously doesnt bother you at all, which is fine, but I personally feel that having those new teams competitive and able to shake things up a bit is good for the game. 

But we're not going to agree so I shall leave it there.

Yes this happens to some players now but there's a big difference. In that scenario the players find themselves in that position either because they choose to wait it out, run their contract down and see what offers come along, or they're forced to wait because other clubs don't really want them.

In your 'Draft' solution players are forced into that situation by preventing them from securing their next contract when they want to and with the club they want to be at.

Would you like to be forced to work for a company you were told to work for and be forced to wait until a certain date every few years knowing then you then just have 3-4 months to try and secure another job ??. I'd challenge anyone to truthfully answer yes to the above !!

These issues aside there's a far better solution that i've long championed that would completely eliminate this problem you think exists - its called Franchising ! No P&R, No problems with promoted teams trying to compete