37 of 42 back IMG’s proposal

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Anita Bath said:

Football league was not a closed shop….there were plenty of new teams entered over the years, Wigan being one of them (hereford, cambridge, wimbledon, gillingham, oxford united, shrewsbury town, peterborough, need I go on…)

Thats different from having automatic promotion and relegation between the football league and non league.

But these clubs were all established and succesful unlike the way RL has entered new teams…anywhere some rich bloke is interested in funding a brand new team

So very similar to what IMG are proposing?

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Nobody is suggesting that. That’s a strawman.

We were suggesting that the growth of the top tier can be beneficial for the whole game, to which somebody said “well the Premier League’s growth wasn’t beneficial for football below, so that’s evidence you are wrong”

We are simply rebutting that, with some clear facts. Nothing more. 

Yes they are suggesting that , the growth of the top tier was beneficial to the lower tiers , but the top tier has always been accessible to essentially all the clubs in the lower tier , take that away and it wouldn't have been 

And once the Football League introduced automatic promotion from non League we saw massive growth in the non League system , prior to that it was essentially stagnant 

The equivalent of the introduction of the Premier League was the introduction of Super League 

[GUBRATS]

23 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

So very similar to what IMG are proposing?

There were a few , but it's only since the introduction of automatic promotion we've seen growth in the non League's 

[GUBRATS]

Time will tell , but IMO IMG will already know who they want in SL , and will set the criteria to achieve that , just as we saw 15 years ago 

Bored with this now 

Come on you Leopards

[Archie Gordon]

10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

As a direct result of spending half a decade plus on making the championshipmore interesting (at the expense of Super League) which has resulted in a reduced deal for the top flight and a "deal" for the second division that provides next to no money.

Well done guys!

I think that's an odd reading of events. Can you expand on the "at the expense of Super League" bit?

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Archie Gordon said:

I think that's an odd reading of events. Can you expand on the "at the expense of Super League" bit?

He means the jeopardy of relegation via the ' 8s ' structure , in fact the jeopardy of any relegation , partly due to the structure at the top of SL where finishing top of the regular system doesn't make you the Champions , essentially making the most interesting part of the regular season who is going down 

It is what it is , every system has a plus and an equal negative , no matter how you try to change the emphasis to what you want you will create another problem 

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

I think that's an odd reading of events. Can you expand on the "at the expense of Super League" bit?

Focus on the climax of the season (final 2 months) shifted from the afterthought top 8s to the middle 8s

 

[Archie Gordon]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Focus on the climax of the season (final 2 months) shifted from the afterthought top 8s to the middle 8s

 

Ok but I thought the top 8s was just really poor and oh so dull. I don't think that should be blamed on the middle 8s. I do agree that, in the round, the 8s were a failure and didn't deliver.

[Adelaide Tiger]

14 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Think you are wrong.Majority of clubs hugely in debt.Most are foreign owned.

Some are even owned by despotic,murderous states.

Even Tory MP Tracy Crouch is totally against everythong that has gone on;and continues to go on.

Money is going out of soccer - and out of this country.

Also,England males won't be winning a major soccer tournament anytime soon.

Soccer got lucky - after a number of tragedies - and they had a lot of money prior to the broadcast deal,to play with. 

Lots of soccer clubs,because they are in so much debt,have taken to accepting loans,mainly from the USA,despite charges on their stadia and Academy facilities.

As someone has already commented on the issues of debt I am more interested in your ‘Soccer got lucky ’ quote.

Why don’t you take a look at the article below that will explain how and why the PL came into being.  Sod all to do with luck but due to some people realising that the game was undervalued and change was needed.

 https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jul/23/deceit-determination-murdochs-millions-how-premier-league-was-born

 

[Adelaide Tiger]

12 hours ago, Hemi4561 said:

So we are having a Bobby Ewing dream moment are we?

I am hallucinating that TV revenues have dropped massively and none super league clubs have had their share out decimated.

In the real world obviously Sky have upped their deal so that super league clubs get 6 million each, Championship clubs get 2 million each, and Division 1 clubs 250,000 each.

 

What is your point?

Are you saying that because TV revenue has dropped then the game should just continue as it is?  If not, what is YOUR way forward for the game?

[Adelaide Tiger]

3 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Football league was not a closed shop….there were plenty of new teams entered over the years, Wigan being one of them (hereford, cambridge, wimbledon, gillingham, oxford united, shrewsbury town, peterborough, need I go on…)

Thats different from having automatic promotion and relegation between the football league and non league.

But these clubs were all established and succesful unlike the way RL has entered new teams…anywhere some rich bloke is interested in funding a brand new team

In practice football operated a type of ‘closed shop’ as the officials of teams finishing in the bottom four of the old Fourth Division would lobby their pals to gain re-election through what would be termed ‘the old pals act’.  Surely you are not advocating such a system for RL are you?

From the time when the Fourth Division was created in 1958 until automatic promotion was introduced in 1986/87 only FIVE clubs were elected from the non-league ranks. These were Peterborough 1960, Cambridge Utd 1970, Hereford 1972, Wimbledon 1977 and Wigan in 1978.  So FIVE clubs in THIRTY years.  Not a great example of plenty of teams entering the system is it.

If the RL/SL had such a record then people would be up in arms about it.

P.S. What is also interesting is that 2 outposts, Barrow 1972 and Workington 1977, lost their status as voting clubs didn’t want the expense or travelling time in going to those places ….. sound familiar?

Edited January 6, 2023 by Adelaide Tiger

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes they are suggesting that , the growth of the top tier was beneficial to the lower tiers , but the top tier has always been accessible to essentially all the clubs in the lower tier , take that away and it wouldn't have been 

 

You seriously believe that the reason for increased revenues and audience at all levels of professional football since the advent of the Premier League, is because each team and all of these additional fans aspires to be in the Premier League?

Absolute nonsense

 

[Oxford]

16 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

From the time when the Fourth Division was created in 1958 until automatic promotion was introduced in 1986/87 only FIVE clubs were elected from the non-league ranks.

So they achieved category B status then?

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

You seriously believe that the reason for increased revenues and audience at all levels of professional football since the advent of the Premier League, is because each team and all of these additional fans aspires to be in the Premier League?

Absolute nonsense

 

It's a moot point either way because the top division of football has always been accessible via on pitch performance 

So the nonsense is on both sides 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

It's a moot point either way because the top division of football has always been accessible via on pitch performance 

So the nonsense is on both sides 

No, it’s not a moot point. It’s just twaddle. 

Football revenues and audience have grown massively at all levels since the advent of the Premier League. Now that we’ve demonstrated that, in detail - when people had said the PL had instead somehow damaged the wider game - the only remaining redoubt is to say “yes, maybe, but that’s only because they still have promotion and relegation”. Which is also demonstrable nonsense.

Unless you think most of the Championship and League One clubs’ supporters are incredibly patient, and playing some sort of long game waiting for their inevitable return to the promised lands!!

The rising tide has lifted all boats (apart from a few who had pretty bad holes in but hadn’t noticed until the tide came in), and can do in rugby league 

[Jemmo]

On 04/01/2023 at 19:28, GUBRATS said:

Glad to hear that Jemmo , I have to admit it's a while since I visited the Keepmoat , and last time the impression I got was it was very much like the LSV with a council run stadium management company that wouldn't let them do much at all 

Yes it was like that to start, but quickly became apparent the levels of bureaucracy to run a stadium when the main customers (Dons, Rovers, Belles) were already running themselves from the site was completely unnecessary and wasting money. So the stadium management was handed over to Club Doncaster (who own the Dons) along with the lease.

It's not perfect but the stadium is getting more, money spinning events now and the profits are going to the clubs (in the last year it was The Killers, Heaton and Abbot and the RL Word Cup games to name a few). I think this is the main reason Dons season tickets are remaining so cheap as the majority of income is from events and corporate

[Oxford]

It is interesting how often pithy phrases replace argument and evidence.

It reminds me of the Lottery "It Could Be You!" advert, and  then maths and reality interfere.

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

No, it’s not a moot point. It’s just twaddle. 

Football revenues and audience have grown massively at all levels since the advent of the Premier League. Now that we’ve demonstrated that, in detail - when people had said the PL had instead somehow damaged the wider game - the only remaining redoubt is to say “yes, maybe, but that’s only because they still have promotion and relegation”. Which is also demonstrable nonsense.

Unless you think most of the Championship and League One clubs’ supporters are incredibly patient, and playing some sort of long game waiting for their inevitable return to the promised lands!!

The rising tide has lifted all boats (apart from a few who had pretty bad holes in but hadn’t noticed until the tide came in), and can do in rugby league 

You're just trying childish point scoring now , you correctly posted that the setting up and success of the Premier League was based upon them monetising their product , this was done by agreeing different kick off times to the traditional 3pm on Saturday , everything else has followed on from that , and the other divisions have followed suit , if all of a sudden they reverted back to all kicking off at the same time every week much of the money would disappear

Feel free to keep picking out bits of people's posts to try to appear superior 

Bye 

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Yes. Focus on what brings in the most money at the top, and money flows down directly and indirectly. 

But not to long ago Tommy did you not say that the (collective) funding handed out below SL was money wasted?

So for the money to flow down from SL to the rest of the game what would you say the minimum funding awarded to SL clubs should be £3m? £5m? 

The game isn't all about SL!

 

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, Jemmo said:

Yes it was like that to start, but quickly became apparent the levels of bureaucracy to run a stadium when the main customers (Dons, Rovers, Belles) were already running themselves from the site was completely unnecessary and wasting money. So the stadium management was handed over to Club Doncaster (who own the Dons) along with the lease.

It's not perfect but the stadium is getting more, money spinning events now and the profits are going to the clubs (in the last year it was The Killers, Heaton and Abbot and the RL Word Cup games to name a few). I think this is the main reason Dons season tickets are remaining so cheap as the majority of income is from events and corporate

Glad to hear it , as I said it is a while since I've been , is ' Club Doncaster ' just the dons or are the two other clubs involved ? , Are the profits equally split or are they ' pro rata ' to attendances of the individual clubs ? 

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

As a direct result of spending half a decade plus on making the championshipmore interesting (at the expense of Super League) which has resulted in a reduced deal for the top flight and a "deal" for the second division that provides next to no money.

Well done guys!

Ah so I see your intentions, beware Tommy when you neglect the foundations the building above becomes unsteady.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But not to long ago Tommy did you not say that the (collective) funding handed out below SL was money wasted?

So for the money to flow down from SL to the rest of the game what would you say the minimum funding awarded to SL clubs should be £3m? £5m? 

The game isn't all about SL!

 

For some it is Harry , they pretend it isn't , but they aren't fooling anybody 

On the ' flow down ' he doesn't mean direct actual collected cash , but some magical ' feel good ' about the sport in general that will mean fans,sponsors and wealthy benefactors will be more interested in their locked out club , we know different don't we ?

The other ' expert ' on here is suggesting the same thing happened with football , when in truth because football has never ' locked ' anybody out the comparison isn't realistic , just as references to the NRL and various US sports is nonsense 

Anyway this is not getting the living room painted is it ? , So I'll call back at dinner ( lunch if you're posh )

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Ah so I see your intentions, beware Tommy when you neglect the foundations the building above becomes unsteady.

If you don't have any money coming in, all your foundations are stuffed.

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The other ' expert ' on here is suggesting the same thing happened with football , when in truth because football has never ' locked ' anybody out the comparison isn't realistic , just as references to the NRL and various US sports is nonsense 

Football has rigid standards-based P&R at all levels of the pyramid. There is no automatic promotion anywhere. Your fantasy of a small team - genuinely small, not Bournemouth small - playing in the Premier League is just that, a fantasy.

Just within five miles of my front door are two teams who, on the field, finished in a promotion spot in their league. (This is very far down the pyramid). One chose not to take promotion - in fact, had to then take relegation as their ground failed a grading assessment - and the other did take promotion but now has to play their first team home games at another ground ten miles away. In both cases, they will have to sort out ground issues before being able to play at home in the division their on-field results would have promoted them to.

[gingerjon]

44 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It's a moot point either way because the top division of football has always been accessible via on pitch performance 

To repeat: it's not.

But the teams who have got to within it mattering all meet the criteria.