Rugby League Australia most popular sport?

[Sports Prophet]

12 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

As a nz rugby league fan you would be primed right now to put a team in the south island once the new stadium is built Christchurch and have a team play at Christchurch and Dunedin with top quality stadia it would be perfect time to strike. 
 

I believe super rugby will soon go on a decline and if the all blacks fall well short next year I would push to have a 2nd nrl team in nz by 2025 or 2027 at the latest leading into a new tv deal. I think the loss of the South African teams has impacted the product and with the struggling aussie teams I can’t see the product getting any better. With a 2nd team in south island you would solidify the elite youth pathways to nrl and limit the Aussie scouts while giving New Zealand a game at home every week especially in the July-august time when super rugby has finished. 

My thoughts exactly

[Londonbornirishbred]

On 07/12/2022 at 11:42, Pulga said:

The Melbourne Storm are a the second most attended rugby club (either code) in the world. They're doing just fine.

Am I reading this correctly? 
Brisbane and Parramatta both had larger average attendances last year alone. In English union, more people attended home games at Quins and Leicester whilst in France, Bordeaux and Toulouse attract more.
I'm not saying that Melbourne aren't fantastic, but they're the only game in town if you're a League fan. Like in Sydney. The AFL Swans are the best supported side in the city with nearly a 30k average, but you'd never claim Sydney was anything other than a RL town.

Personally, I would say that both League and AFL are on an equal footing as the top winter sport, but as for the national sport of Australia, that will always be Cricket

[Sports Prophet]

12 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

As a nz rugby league fan you would be primed right now to put a team in the south island once the new stadium is built Christchurch and have a team play at Christchurch and Dunedin with top quality stadia it would be perfect time to strike. 
 

I believe super rugby will soon go on a decline and if the all blacks fall well short next year I would push to have a 2nd nrl team in nz by 2025 or 2027 at the latest leading into a new tv deal. I think the loss of the South African teams has impacted the product and with the struggling aussie teams I can’t see the product getting any better. With a 2nd team in south island you would solidify the elite youth pathways to nrl and limit the Aussie scouts while giving New Zealand a game at home every week especially in the July-august time when super rugby has finished. 

I think MZ is ripe for the picking. With union slumped in a five team Super Rugby competition, it doesn’t leave much viewing opportunities, although kiwi Super Rugby teams play the most enjoyable RU to watch. Anything else is a horror show to my eyes.

With a product as big and powerful as the NRL, a second team in NZ right now is the perfect timing.

In saying that, the power players for a Perth franchise are very confident of their chances for club number 18 and fortunately their vision no longer involves the Bears.

[Sports Prophet]

29 minutes ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

Am I reading this correctly? 
Brisbane and Parramatta both had larger average attendances last year alone. In English union, more people attended home games at Quins and Leicester whilst in France, Bordeaux and Toulouse attract more.
I'm not saying that Melbourne aren't fantastic, but they're the only game in town if you're a League fan. Like in Sydney. The AFL Swans are the best supported side in the city with nearly a 30k average, but you'd never claim Sydney was anything other than a RL town.

Personally, I would say that both League and AFL are on an equal footing as the top winter sport, but as for the national sport of Australia, that will always be Cricket

Yeah, I questioned that point too. A quick search to my go to crowds website set me straight... a very good resource I might add.

https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/parramatta.html

What evidence were you using to say Melbourne are the second most attended Rugby club of either code @Pulga?

[Londonbornirishbred]

12 hours ago, Iceberg Slim said:

As a nz rugby league fan you would be primed right now to put a team in the south island once the new stadium is built Christchurch and have a team play at Christchurch and Dunedin with top quality stadia it would be perfect time to strike. 
 

I believe super rugby will soon go on a decline and if the all blacks fall well short next year I would push to have a 2nd nrl team in nz by 2025 or 2027 at the latest leading into a new tv deal. I think the loss of the South African teams has impacted the product and with the struggling aussie teams I can’t see the product getting any better. With a 2nd team in south island you would solidify the elite youth pathways to nrl and limit the Aussie scouts while giving New Zealand a game at home every week especially in the July-august time when super rugby has finished. 

The issue here is one of funding. The Warriors are VERY lucky to have both generous owners and a naming rights sponsor who delivers unwavering support (and loads of publicity). They are also based in a geographic urban area that sits well within the RL audience demographic, with a huge pacifica/maori population.

Christchurch is a totally different kettle of fish. 13% of the population there identify as Maori/Pacifica (Nationally it's 22%) while over half the Pacifica population of NZ live within 10 kms of Mt Smart. The Christchurch Union side are multiple champions, yet they couldn't sell out their home semi-final this year and got fewer than 12k for the QF. Without dwelling on racial stereotyping to much, Christchurch and most cities along the east coast of the south Island are pretty "white" in their make up.
In 2019, fewer than 9,000 fans bothered to turn up for the Test v the GB Lions, 3,000 fewer than bothered 2 years earlier for a World Cup game v Scotland. The three NRL games there have seen a decline on gates each year.

If it were down to the next side HAVING to be in New Zealand, then I would lean towards a split venue between Wellington, Christchurch & Dunedin with the latter probably delivering the highest crowds, due to it being a University City (largest teaching uni in Australasia I believe). 3 or 4 games in each would give the side a better spread from which to attract fans and make the games more of "events". I know plenty of people who are excited about seeing the warriors in Wellington and Napier, as well as the Wests game in Hamilton. 

 

[Young Blood]

Melbourne have most members

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

The issue here is one of funding. The Warriors are VERY lucky to have both generous owners and a naming rights sponsor who delivers unwavering support (and loads of publicity). They are also based in a geographic urban area that sits well within the RL audience demographic, with a huge pacifica/maori population.

Christchurch is a totally different kettle of fish. 13% of the population there identify as Maori/Pacifica (Nationally it's 22%) while over half the Pacifica population of NZ live within 10 kms of Mt Smart. The Christchurch Union side are multiple champions, yet they couldn't sell out their home semi-final this year and got fewer than 12k for the QF. Without dwelling on racial stereotyping to much, Christchurch and most cities along the east coast of the south Island are pretty "white" in their make up.
In 2019, fewer than 9,000 fans bothered to turn up for the Test v the GB Lions, 3,000 fewer than bothered 2 years earlier for a World Cup game v Scotland. The three NRL games there have seen a decline on gates each year.

If it were down to the next side HAVING to be in New Zealand, then I would lean towards a split venue between Wellington, Christchurch & Dunedin with the latter probably delivering the highest crowds, due to it being a University City (largest teaching uni in Australasia I believe). 3 or 4 games in each would give the side a better spread from which to attract fans and make the games more of "events". I know plenty of people who are excited about seeing the warriors in Wellington and Napier, as well as the Wests game in Hamilton. 

 

Great insight!

[Sports Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Young Blood said:

Melbourne have most members

Unsurprising for the membership culture in Vic, but a very good achievement all the same.

[Young Blood]

I think NRL can really work in Perth it wont dethrone AFL but no reason it cant be a success, 17 team comp wont last long the 18th team should be Perth.

[Londonbornirishbred]

[Copa]

7 minutes ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

OzTag and especially Touch Football have lots of participants and should be on the list.

Some sources re touch football 

https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/racial_discrimination/whats_the_score/pdf/touch_football.pdf

https://touchfootball.com.au/about-touch-football/why-play/

https://touchfootball.com.au/media/10407/tfa_annual-report-2020_12.pdf

 

 

 

[DACS]

Just on the revenue, while the Leagues Clubs fund their associated NRL teams, trying to count the revenue from pokies (and real estate) as part of the revenue for NRL teams is ludicrous. Its exactly the same non-logic as claiming the revenue from the outside business of a mega-wealthy owner as the revenue of a football team. 

That's not to say Leagues Clubs funding of NRL teams shouldn't be counted, but all the other income earned by the Leagues Clubs that doesn't go to the NRL team shouldn't. Anyone who has been to Redcliffe or West Sydney for example will know that these entities own, sponsor and invest in vast swathes of business including other sports.  All of those businesses have costs and revenues as well, so it cannot be assumed in any way that if required the Leagues Club could just divert all of its revenue to the NRL. 

 

 

[Pulga]

4 hours ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

The issue here is one of funding. The Warriors are VERY lucky to have both generous owners and a naming rights sponsor who delivers unwavering support (and loads of publicity). They are also based in a geographic urban area that sits well within the RL audience demographic, with a huge pacifica/maori population.

Christchurch is a totally different kettle of fish. 13% of the population there identify as Maori/Pacifica (Nationally it's 22%) while over half the Pacifica population of NZ live within 10 kms of Mt Smart. The Christchurch Union side are multiple champions, yet they couldn't sell out their home semi-final this year and got fewer than 12k for the QF. Without dwelling on racial stereotyping to much, Christchurch and most cities along the east coast of the south Island are pretty "white" in their make up.
In 2019, fewer than 9,000 fans bothered to turn up for the Test v the GB Lions, 3,000 fewer than bothered 2 years earlier for a World Cup game v Scotland. The three NRL games there have seen a decline on gates each year.

If it were down to the next side HAVING to be in New Zealand, then I would lean towards a split venue between Wellington, Christchurch & Dunedin with the latter probably delivering the highest crowds, due to it being a University City (largest teaching uni in Australasia I believe). 3 or 4 games in each would give the side a better spread from which to attract fans and make the games more of "events". I know plenty of people who are excited about seeing the warriors in Wellington and Napier, as well as the Wests game in Hamilton. 

 

I don't think funding is the issue at all. The New Zealand NRL TV deal would already pay for it. The old deal was $20m a year, the new one is apparently quite a lot better.

Even if it wasn't anywhere near as big as the Warriors they could still be set up by the NRL.

[Iceberg Slim]

4 hours ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

The issue here is one of funding. The Warriors are VERY lucky to have both generous owners and a naming rights sponsor who delivers unwavering support (and loads of publicity). They are also based in a geographic urban area that sits well within the RL audience demographic, with a huge pacifica/maori population.

Christchurch is a totally different kettle of fish. 13% of the population there identify as Maori/Pacifica (Nationally it's 22%) while over half the Pacifica population of NZ live within 10 kms of Mt Smart. The Christchurch Union side are multiple champions, yet they couldn't sell out their home semi-final this year and got fewer than 12k for the QF. Without dwelling on racial stereotyping to much, Christchurch and most cities along the east coast of the south Island are pretty "white" in their make up.
In 2019, fewer than 9,000 fans bothered to turn up for the Test v the GB Lions, 3,000 fewer than bothered 2 years earlier for a World Cup game v Scotland. The three NRL games there have seen a decline on gates each year.

If it were down to the next side HAVING to be in New Zealand, then I would lean towards a split venue between Wellington, Christchurch & Dunedin with the latter probably delivering the highest crowds, due to it being a University City (largest teaching uni in Australasia I believe). 3 or 4 games in each would give the side a better spread from which to attract fans and make the games more of "events". I know plenty of people who are excited about seeing the warriors in Wellington and Napier, as well as the Wests game in Hamilton. 

 

I think the warriors have always drawn well in Christchurch. I don’t know the figures by they usually draw over 10k. I think the new indoor stadium would make a huge difference especially with 2 South Island indoor stadiums plus you add Wellington you might have something there. 
 

the only real way this works is if sky ups it’s figure from 30 mil a year atm to 60m a year with the inclusion of a second team. I think the dolphins joining brought in an extra 20mil a year so you would need that extra money to come from sky which I don’t think could be a stretch. If you could get a solid supporter base across the South Island and Wellington with 4 games each a year that would be a worthwhile product. The other option is that the Canterbury bulls own addington stadium as well so that’s another asset to bring into the potential bidders for the Christchurch bid 

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, DACS said:

Just on the revenue, while the Leagues Clubs fund their associated NRL teams, trying to count the revenue from pokies (and real estate) as part of the revenue for NRL teams is ludicrous. Its exactly the same non-logic as claiming the revenue from the outside business of a mega-wealthy owner as the revenue of a football team. 

That's not to say Leagues Clubs funding of NRL teams shouldn't be counted, but all the other income earned by the Leagues Clubs that doesn't go to the NRL team shouldn't. Anyone who has been to Redcliffe or West Sydney for example will know that these entities own, sponsor and invest in vast swathes of business including other sports.  All of those businesses have costs and revenues as well, so it cannot be assumed in any way that if required the Leagues Club could just divert all of its revenue to the NRL. 

 

 

Well said. You had more patience than me.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Sports Prophet

[Young Blood]

6 hours ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

Soccer will always be most participated as it's easiest to play for younger kids and parents rather them play that then risk injury in contact sport. Majority of those players have no intention of choosing it as a pathway, my nephew plays soccer as his parents put him there he tells all they talk about during training is nrl, he wears his Souths jersey to soccer training! 

[Pulga]

10 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah, I questioned that point too. A quick search to my go to crowds website set me straight... a very good resource I might add.

https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/parramatta.html

What evidence were you using to say Melbourne are the second most attended Rugby club of either code @Pulga?

May have pulled that out of my ######.

[Oxford]

So the purpose of this thread is to downgrade RL in some way......

I don't follow other sports but do they have forum threads that downplay their own sport in this kind of way or to this extent?

This is a common theme on Total and it's sole purpose seems to be to keep the virtual kick&clappers that haunt this forum on occasion as happy as Larry Bootmoney!

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

On 08/12/2022 at 00:27, Sports Prophet said:

I wouldn’t disagree with that. Another undiscussed point in favour of AFL over NRL where it Australian Rules navigates class divides far easier than RL

What you may well know is the shift of NRL popularity in the upper classes of the heartlands. Whilst Rugby Union remains the choice of sport at the secondary “establishment” GPS colleges in Sydney and Brisbane, NRL is the topic of most weekly discussion among the rugby playing students, many of which have contracts/associations to NRL clubs. Union appears to be the damsel to Rugby League’s freight train and there is no cowboy in sight. Rugby Australia have had recent opportunities to restyle their product but have been very unsuccessful in that rollout and have miserably failed to capitalise. It would appear that damsel tied herself to the tracks.

The NRL did suffer due to SL war and has never been in a better position than now to drive growth in their already mass audience figures. The obvious opportunity for large growth is in attendances and memberships as this is where the NRL is lagging the most.

I think NRL is well primed to encroach on what I still feel is a market led by the AFL. Tricky point is, where does that next NRL team play out of? Perth or NZ? Perth will help with the Australian profile of the NRL, yet NZ will help make inroads on the NZ and Pacific market, with a much better immediate return on elite youth coming through the game over the next 15 years. 

As the All Blacks continue to decline, a successful 2023 campaign by the Warriors will be another great opportunity. Perhaps that is for another thread though.

Cool, broadly agreed

For mine I'd do Perth as 18th and South NZ as a rapid 19th afterwards.

In reality League culture in NZ has always been mainly centred around Auckland, Warriors have yet to truly step-up and so whilst it's an opportunity it's not the top option. Perth on the other hand has long-established pathways (albeit need expanding), a clear local 'pull' demand from Govt. and commerce, all of the stadia in place and the benefit of creating an extra TV time slot in Australia (so something to use to push for additional media fees)

It would also, in one fell swoop, nail the "League isn't a national game" line the AFL uses when competing for media and commercial partnership money in Australia.

 

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Cool, broadly agreed

For mine I'd do Perth as 18th and South NZ as a rapid 19th afterwards.

In reality League culture in NZ has always been mainly centred around Auckland, Warriors have yet to truly step-up and so whilst it's an opportunity it's not the top option. Perth on the other hand has long-established pathways (albeit need expanding), a clear local 'pull' demand from Govt. and commerce, all of the stadia in place and the benefit of creating an extra TV time slot in Australia (so something to use to push for additional media fees)

It would also, in one fell swoop, nail the "League isn't a national game" line the AFL uses when competing for media and commercial partnership money in Australia.

 

I don’t think WA opens up a valuable time slot at all. The only obvious extra slot is an east coast 6pm Sunday KO. Not a slot that is prized by sports. NZII however opens up both Saturday and Sunday east coast midday KO’s and a second more favourable option for the 6pm Friday time slot.

I still feel that NZII’s strongest case is that there will be an immediate increase in NRL playing talent.

Throw a team in Perth, you might get 5 NRL players in 15 years. Throw a team south of Auckland, you will get 55 in the same period. Of course that’s an estimate, before anyone wants to start an argument on hear like the PNG thread.

Commercially, there is no argument. Perth hands down.

Maybe there is a swift push to 20, Perth, Port Moresby and NZ. I would really love to see PNG added. It would be a fantastic cultural addition, amongst many other favourable outcomes.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Sports Prophet

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I don’t think WA opens up a valuable time slot at all. The only obvious extra slot is an east coast 6pm Sunday KO. Not a slot that is prized by sports. NZII however opens up both Saturday and Sunday east coast midday KO’s and a second more favourable option for the 6pm Friday time slot.

I still feel that NZII’s strongest case is that there will be an immediate increase in NRL playing talent.

Throw a team in Perth, you might get 5 NRL players in 15 years. Throw a team south of Auckland, you will get 55 in the same period. Of course that’s an estimate, before anyone wants to start an argument on hear like the PNG thread.

Commercially, there is no argument. Perth hands down.

Maybe there is a swift push to 20, Perth, Port Moresby and NZ. I would really love to see PNG added. It would be a fantastic cultural addition, amongst many other favourable outcomes.

I think NZ2 and Perth are a no brainer for the next 2 spots. I think there is heaps of talent for a 2nd NZ team. I would like to see both fairly quickly (none of this waiting a decade a time nonsense to add a team). I think both would be a great success and push the game onward and upward. I feel NZ2 would be transformational for NZ RL and really take the fight to RU.

I just cant see PNG having a team and think there will be a lot of demand within Australia for a 20th team (presuming those two get the 18th and 19th spots). The only way it will happen is if there is some huge political agenda bankrolling the whole thing. That may happen but I just cant see it. I suspect after a few additions from elsewhere that NSW, in the form of a Central Coast team at Gosford, will probably get another team. I don't agree with that but just think RL politics will come into play at some point.

Either way I'd love to see 20 teams asap. I certainly think the players and support for it is there and it will see RL truly dominate the region.

[Tosh]

5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I don’t think WA opens up a valuable time slot at all. The only obvious extra slot is an east coast 6pm Sunday KO. Not a slot that is prized by sports. NZII however opens up both Saturday and Sunday east coast midday KO’s and a second more favourable option for the 6pm Friday time slot.

I still feel that NZII’s strongest case is that there will be an immediate increase in NRL playing talent.

Throw a team in Perth, you might get 5 NRL players in 15 years. Throw a team south of Auckland, you will get 55 in the same period. Of course that’s an estimate, before anyone wants to start an argument on hear like the PNG thread.

Commercially, there is no argument. Perth hands down.

Maybe there is a swift push to 20, Perth, Port Moresby and NZ. I would really love to see PNG added. It would be a fantastic cultural addition, amongst many other favourable outcomes.

I think Perth are nailed on for the 18th place but can’t see a PNG team entering the NRL within in the next 10-20 years if ever within our lifetime.

If the NRL was ever to increase to a 20 team competition then I think another Queensland side or maybe even 2 would be added over NZ2.

[Tosh]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

I think NZ2 and Perth are a no brainer for the next 2 spots. I think there is heaps of talent for a 2nd NZ team. I would like to see both fairly quickly (none of this waiting a decade a time nonsense to add a team). I think both would be a great success and push the game onward and upward. I feel NZ2 would be transformational for NZ RL and really take the fight to RU.

I just cant see PNG having a team and think there will be a lot of demand within Australia for a 20th team (presuming those two get the 18th and 19th spots). The only way it will happen is if there is some huge political agenda bankrolling the whole thing. That may happen but I just cant see it. I suspect after a few additions from elsewhere that NSW, in the form of a Central Coast team at Gosford, will probably get another team. I don't agree with that but just think RL politics will come into play at some point.

Either way I'd love to see 20 teams asap. I certainly think the players and support for it is there and it will see RL truly dominate the region.

I can’t see a central coast team entering the NRL due to its small population, lack of corporate dollars potential and the already bloated NSW representation.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Tosh said:

I can’t see a central coast team entering the NRL due to its small population, lack of corporate dollars potential and the already bloated NSW representation.

I hope you are right.

[Tosh]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

I hope you are right.

That ship has already sailed when the northern Eagles disbanded.