War of the Roses (2023 Thread)

[Mumby Magic]

28 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

What's the combined attendance of those 8 English clubs not in the Yorkshire/Lancashire region?

There's nothing to stop Wales playing France at the same time. Not Cumbria. I also noticed you bizarrely excluded Doncaster and Sheffield from Yorkshire!

I don't understand the embarrassment some have of being associated with our northern heritage. This can act as a celebration of that as well as a meaningful rep selection process. The previous incarnation of it held midweek cannot really act as a precedent for success. It wasn't given a fair chance in the modern age.

Doncaster and Sheffield from M62.

[Mumby Magic]

29 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

What's the combined attendance of those 8 English clubs not in the Yorkshire/Lancashire region?

There's nothing to stop Wales playing France at the same time. Not Cumbria. I also noticed you bizarrely excluded Doncaster and Sheffield from Yorkshire!

I don't understand the embarrassment some have of being associated with our northern heritage. This can act as a celebration of that as well as a meaningful rep selection process. The previous incarnation of it held midweek cannot really act as a precedent for success. It wasn't given a fair chance in the modern age.

It's not embarrassment, it's progression. As you're another long time poster you know I'm not the argumentative type. However we have just had a reduced SKY deal yet we are discussing a thread about a regionalised match or series? Says enough tbh.

[Mumby Magic]

34 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Existence is the right word. The fact that these teams have been in existence for so long but essentially made no progress (most of them), only strengthens my point. It not being staged in 20 years is not an excuse not to do it now. The Rugby league landscape was a lot different back then. We had a lot more clout on the international stage back then. What less relevance would a well staged, well marketed and well attended WotR, be than SoO?

Again I ask though, any suggestions on mid year rep footy are welcome.

Suggestion is Internationals. 

[sam4731]

39 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Suggestion is Internationals. 

Internationals as a suggestion is as helpful as saying let's play Australia mid season and have a competitive 32 team world cup. Unfortunately, any international that we can arrange mid season is simply pointless as it does nothing to further England's development.

[gingerjon]

21 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Internationals as a suggestion is as helpful as saying let's play Australia mid season and have a competitive 32 team world cup. Unfortunately, any international that we can arrange mid season is simply pointless as it does nothing to further England's development.

The Roses game would be missing any England players from the NRL as well as any potential players who happen to be born in Cumbria or outside Lancs and Yorks (and it would be even more of a nonsense if those potential internationals played their own lesser game as some kind of salve for the conscience of those advocating simply a resurrection of the failed Roses games from the past.)

"Internationals" may be a useless suggestion but when the alternative is, "we'll do what failed for a century but this time we'll market it better, somehow ..." ...

[Mathius Hellwege]

22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The Roses game would be missing any England players from the NRL as well as any potential players who happen to be born in Cumbria or outside Lancs and Yorks (and it would be even more of a nonsense if those potential internationals played their own lesser game as some kind of salve for the conscience of those advocating simply a resurrection of the failed Roses games from the past.)

"Internationals" may be a useless suggestion but when the alternative is, "we'll do what failed for a century but this time we'll market it better, somehow ..." ...

NRL are off-limits anyways (also for every mid-season internationals), but every other target group you mention can be included through clever structuring of the competition

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mathius Hellwege
missing words

[Mumby Magic]

1 hour ago, sam4731 said:

Internationals as a suggestion is as helpful as saying let's play Australia mid season and have a competitive 32 team world cup. Unfortunately, any international that we can arrange mid season is simply pointless as it does nothing to further England's development.

Sorry don't know his new you are but I've suggested England France as the mid-season International. 

[RigbyLuger]

2 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

Suggestion is Internationals. 

Exactly. Internationals can be sold as events to people outside the bubble we live in.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

Doncaster and Sheffield from M62.

When we're discussing Yorkshire v Lancashire, I think the point that they're actually from Yorkshire overrides the point they're sighting further from the M62 than the rest.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

It's not embarrassment, it's progression. As you're another long time poster you know I'm not the argumentative type. However we have just had a reduced SKY deal yet we are discussing a thread about a regionalised match or series? Says enough tbh.

Does the Sky deal include a mid season rep game? 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

Suggestion is Internationals. 

Against who?

France don't release players. England don't have their NRL players. The southern teams won't travel mid-season. Playing a mid-season international under those circumstances does more to harm the international game than develop it.

Unless that changes, the rep fixture shouldn't be an international. It does nothing for anyone.

[Mumby Magic]

5 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Does the Sky deal include a mid season rep game? 

That I don't know but doubt it. Surely a knick on channel 4s door may prompt things.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

Exactly. Internationals can be sold as events to people outside the bubble we live in.

The issue I have is we can hype up these mid-season internationals, new fans get intrigued, then they see what's actually being presented (a mis-match in front of a small crowd in a smallish ground) and think it's a very poor product. If it's not going to be done right, do something else.

[Mumby Magic]

3 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Against who?

France don't release players. England don't have their NRL players. The southern teams won't travel mid-season. Playing a mid-season international under those circumstances does more to harm the international game than develop it.

Unless that changes, the rep fixture shouldn't be an international. It does nothing for anyone.

Surely this is when the IRL step in. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Just now, Mumby Magic said:

That I don't know but doubt it. Surely a knick on channel 4s door may prompt things.

My point is that this rep fixture has zero impact on the Sky deal. Not playing France, or playing CNAS or an origin fixture isn't going to make Sky change the money.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 minute ago, Mumby Magic said:

Surely this is when the IRL step in. 

How? With what power?

In a situation where we could force teams to play their best players in particular international windows set up credible international tournaments, I'd be massively in favour of internationals and wouldn't even suggest Roses.

But we can't. We have to be strategic with the situation we're in. Setting up fixtures for ideal situations that don't materialise isn't strategic.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The Roses game would be missing any England players from the NRL as well as any potential players who happen to be born in Cumbria or outside Lancs and Yorks (and it would be even more of a nonsense if those potential internationals played their own lesser game as some kind of salve for the conscience of those advocating simply a resurrection of the failed Roses games from the past.)

"Internationals" may be a useless suggestion but when the alternative is, "we'll do what failed for a century but this time we'll market it better, somehow ..." ...

Missing NRL players? - Yes. As would any mid-season rep fixture (unless it's against a southern hemisphere side, which it won't be). It's a purely SL fixture.

Missing players from the rest of the country? - Every English SL club currently (and the vast majority fit the last decade) is from an area that would qualify. Chances are, a Cumbrian SL player would qualify through the club they played for first (like in NRL for SOO). Brian Carney represented Lancashire.

[bobbruce]

7 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Missing NRL players? - Yes. As would any mid-season rep fixture (unless it's against a southern hemisphere side, which it won't be). It's a purely SL fixture.

Missing players from the rest of the country? - Every English SL club currently (and the vast majority fit the last decade) is from an area that would qualify. Chances are, a Cumbrian SL player would qualify through the club they played for first (like in NRL for SOO). Brian Carney represented Lancashire.

Why would Carney represent Lancashire. 

[Mumby Magic]

29 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

How? With what power?

In a situation where we could force teams to play their best players in particular international windows set up credible international tournaments, I'd be massively in favour of internationals and wouldn't even suggest Roses.

But we can't. We have to be strategic with the situation we're in. Setting up fixtures for ideal situations that don't materialise isn't strategic.

Get what you are saying but surely it says enough about our sport when they don't have power.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mumby Magic

[Mumby Magic]

34 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

My point is that this rep fixture has zero impact on the Sky deal. Not playing France, or playing CNAS or an origin fixture isn't going to make Sky change the money.

There are other broadcasters.

[sam4731]

20 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Why would Carney represent Lancashire. 

For the same reason that Jake Conor in the CNAS squad representing his Trinidadian heritage. No one really cares who plays for who. As long as you can get people passionate about supporting Yorkshire and Lancashire, people won't be that bothered who's playing for who.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The Roses game would be missing any England players from the NRL as well as any potential players who happen to be born in Cumbria or outside Lancs and Yorks (and it would be even more of a nonsense if those potential internationals played their own lesser game as some kind of salve for the conscience of those advocating simply a resurrection of the failed Roses games from the past.)

"Internationals" may be a useless suggestion but when the alternative is, "we'll do what failed for a century but this time we'll market it better, somehow ..." ...

 

34 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Why would Carney represent Lancashire. 

First club you play for in either county 

[bobbruce]

12 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

 

First club you play for in either county 

Brian Carney played for two SL clubs before Wigan and neither was in Lancashire. 

[ghost crayfish]

15 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

England v All Stars is just the Exiles game, except at the start of the season and it being freezing. It wouldn't be any different.

You'd never get a mid-year 4N. If you're expecting NH teams to compete, you're wasting 3 weeks on sub-10k crowds instead of a round of SL. Not really worth it. You'd never get SH teams to travel mid-season for 3 weeks (can't even get 1 week).

 

Put it on Channel 4 and use it as a proper tool for hyping the upcoming season. Make it a charity event and get celebs involved too. Whatever, there must be SOMETHING your administrators can do to give England a game that actually helps to promote the domestic competition.

Or not.

Super League is fine as it is I guess. Wonder how low the next TV deal could go?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

2 hours ago, bobbruce said:

Why would Carney represent Lancashire. 

 

2 hours ago, bobbruce said:

Brian Carney played for two SL clubs before Wigan and neither was in Lancashire. 

Not quite sure why or how it was allowed, but I'm just demonstrating that it didn't rule out non-Yorkshire/Lancashire players.

Only thing I can think of is that, with Gateshead being his first club, he had choice of either and opted for Lancashire because his current side at the time was Wigan.