War of the Roses (2023 Thread)

[sam4731]

40 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

The single best post on this thread and nobody (as far I can tell) has replied to it. The fundamental reason why it wouldn’t work; as it hasn’t done so in the past. 

Thing is the quality of any mid season international/rep game is not going to be that high but how many options do we have in total and how many of those options have we tried (and in my opinion), and failed. In my eyes we've done France and Combined Nations Allstars which have both been a flop. Any other ideas other than a roses game are welcome.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

7 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

The single best post on this thread and nobody (as far I can tell) has replied to it. The fundamental reason why it wouldn’t work; as it hasn’t done so in the past. 

When you have a league with a high number of imports, most rep games won't have as high as intensity as the top 2 playing. The only ones with better quality would be those involving players from a league with more quality players (ie the NRL), and that ain't happening mid-season.

So basically, bin off mid-season rep rugby.

[ghost crayfish]

I understand concerns about quality, and previous crowd numbers etc. suggest the demand isn't great, but I still think it'd be a bit crazy to bin mid-season rep stuff completely.

I think the model the game needs to move to over there is creating multiple products to sell to broadcasters and sponsors. IMG are right to recommend cutting short what is an incredibly long SL season, and I think rep footy and a re-jig of the Challenge Cup (I'd go pools of 4 at the 16-team stage, playing over 3 weeks, leading to qualification for the quarters) are the way to inject life and hopefully draw more broadcast money in. Aside from that, mid-year rep footy has the bonus of creating speculation about selection and adding a break from the club competition just as it starts getting a bit monotonous.

I'd actually start the English season with an England v All Stars game, promoting the new SL season. I'd then move into a mid-year 4 Nations played over a 3-week period (with a SL break). The final could then be played a bit later in the season, or maybe post-season, as a warm up for the southern hemisphere opponent.

[Mathius Hellwege]

On 21/08/2023 at 15:21, GeordieSaint said:

The single best post on this thread and nobody (as far I can tell) has replied to it. The fundamental reason why it wouldn’t work; as it hasn’t done so in the past. 

but we have to try

1. Exiles did not work in the two tries they got

2. France killed the mid-international by sending a B-team

2. the RFL would kill the mid-international window by staging it in the M62 corridor

Make War of Roses a storyline for getting a place in the test matches against the SH end-of-season-----try something, a 4 team convention with 4 out of the 5(Lancashire-Yorkshire-Rest of England- France-Rest of Exiles) by combining two of the "not Yorkshire" teams

[Wellsy4HullFC]

36 minutes ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

Make War of Roses a storyline for getting a place in the test matches against the SH end-of-season-----try something, a 4 team convention with 4 out of the 5(Lancashire-Yorkshire-Rest of England- France-Rest of Exiles) by combining two of the "not Yorkshire" teams

It's a hard "no" to made up teams. They don't sell. It's not an event.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It's a hard "no" to made up teams. They don't sell. It's not an event.

6,000 more people turned up to the first Exiles (2011) match compared with the number who went to the last Roses match.

(Not saying you're wrong by the way, just that it's not quite as straightforward as may appear).

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, ghost crayfish said:

I'd actually start the English season with an England v All Stars game, promoting the new SL season. I'd then move into a mid-year 4 Nations played over a 3-week period (with a SL break). The final could then be played a bit later in the season, or maybe post-season, as a warm up for the southern hemisphere opponent.

England v All Stars is just the Exiles game, except at the start of the season and it being freezing. It wouldn't be any different.

You'd never get a mid-year 4N. If you're expecting NH teams to compete, you're wasting 3 weeks on sub-10k crowds instead of a round of SL. Not really worth it. You'd never get SH teams to travel mid-season for 3 weeks (can't even get 1 week).

 

[gingerjon]

Just now, gingerjon said:

6,000 more people turned up to the first Exiles (2011) match compared with the number who went to the last Roses match.

(Not saying you're wrong by the way, just that it's not quite as straightforward as may appear).

Quoting myself.

If one were making up a silly tournament would Yorkshire v Lancashire v Cumbria v Mighty Love Gods (everyone not covered by the first three) work in any way?

Each plays three matches leading to a final?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

6,000 more people turned up to the first Exiles (2011) match compared with the number who went to the last Roses match.

(Not saying you're wrong by the way, just that it's not quite as straightforward as may appear).

You're comparing a game on a Wednesday night between SL fixtures to a game on a weekend with a build and at least some novelty surrounding a new event. 2 years later, it attracted less than 8k on a Friday, hence why it was binned.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Quoting myself.

If one were making up a silly tournament would Yorkshire v Lancashire v Cumbria v Mighty Love Gods (everyone not covered by the first three) work in any way?

Each plays three matches leading to a final?

If you're going to go that, it might as well be the Exiles (at least it guarantees 2 home games). But you're then committing 4 weeks to it which I think is way too much. 

Cumbria should certainly be playing at the same time, as should other regions, but not against Yorks or Lancs.

[Mathius Hellwege]

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

If you're going to go that, it might as well be the Exiles (at least it guarantees 2 home games). But you're then committing 4 weeks to it which I think is way too much. 

Cumbria should certainly be playing at the same time, as should other regions, but not against Yorks or Lancs.

Cumbria vs Wales?

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

Cumbria vs Wales?

Cumbria vs Cambria

[sam4731]

We seem to be so obsessed with England playing France that we forget that Wales would actually, in my opinion, be a better opponent for France. Especially if France are forced to field a weakened side mid season, they may as well have a decent contest with Wales.

Edited August 23, 2023 by sam4731

[Damien]

1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

We seem to be so obsessed with England playing France that we forget that Wales would actually, in my opinion, be a better opponent for France. Especially if France are forced to field a weakened side mid season, they may as well have a decent contest with Wales.

To be honest it should be both. The trouble is to make it work requires a joined up strategy of developing more Welsh and French full time players and clubs. Without working to expand that player pool, and yes that requires money/assistance for those countries and clubs, then we can play France and Wales 50 times and get the same results 50 times. There is only so much better a country can get by playing more games if the full time players aren't there.

[sam4731]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

To be honest it should be both. The trouble is to make it work requires a joined up strategy of developing more Welsh and French full time players and clubs. Without working to expand that player pool, and yes that requires money/assistance for those countries and clubs, then we can play France and Wales 50 times and get the same results 50 times. There is only so much better a country can get by playing more games if the full time players aren't there.

I fully agree but in the short term, there is simply no point pitting England against Wales or France, it's just too big a mismatch.

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

If you're going to go that, it might as well be the Exiles (at least it guarantees 2 home games). But you're then committing 4 weeks to it which I think is way too much. 

Cumbria should certainly be playing at the same time, as should other regions, but not against Yorks or Lancs.

I'd back Cumbria to beat either Yorkshire or Lancashire in a home match.

That's why I'd include them.

Not that I'm in favour but if I were ...

[17 stone giant]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'd back Cumbria to beat either Yorkshire or Lancashire in a home match.

That's why I'd include them.

Not that I'm in favour but if I were ...

Never mind Cumbria. I want to know who will be in the Mighty Love God squad?

[Mumby Magic]

Really can't believe this is a discussed subject in modern day RL. Yes at professional level we a predominantly a Northern sport but nit necessarily a M62 sport.

Catalans

Wigan *

St Helens * 

Leigh *

Warrington *

Salford *

Hull KR *

Leeds *

Hull FC *

Huddersfield *

Castleford *

Wakefield *

Featherstone *

Toulouse

Bradford *

Sheffield 

Batley *

London

Halifax *

Widnes *

York

Whitehaven

Barrow

Keighley *

Swinton *

Newcastle 

Dewsbury *

Hunslet *

Doncaster

Oldham *

Workington

Crusaders

Rochdale *

Hurricanes

Cornwall

Skolars

The asteria denotes teams deemed as M62 clubs, despite clubs like Keighley being dome distance away. 14 out of 36 are not from the M62 region. Over a third. We need to open our eyes znd ghink positive. Anyone who thinks that a War of the Roses would be positive at top level RL needs their head shaking. Thoughts like is why we can never get ourselves out of the stereotypes we have pigeonholed ourselves into. 

[sam4731]

18 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

Really can't believe this is a discussed subject in modern day RL. Yes at professional level we a predominantly a Northern sport but nit necessarily a M62 sport.

Catalans

Wigan *

St Helens * 

Leigh *

Warrington *

Salford *

Hull KR *

Leeds *

Hull FC *

Huddersfield *

Castleford *

Wakefield *

Featherstone *

Toulouse

Bradford *

Sheffield 

Batley *

London

Halifax *

Widnes *

York

Whitehaven

Barrow

Keighley *

Swinton *

Newcastle 

Dewsbury *

Hunslet *

Doncaster

Oldham *

Workington

Crusaders

Rochdale *

Hurricanes

Cornwall

Skolars

The asteria denotes teams deemed as M62 clubs, despite clubs like Keighley being dome distance away. 14 out of 36 are not from the M62 region. Over a third. We need to open our eyes znd ghink positive. Anyone who thinks that a War of the Roses would be positive at top level RL needs their head shaking. Thoughts like is why we can never get ourselves out of the stereotypes we have pigeonholed ourselves into. 

Come on, be real. Those 14 teams are 90% of what makes our sport. Most of those other teams are a half hearted attempt at expansion. But I come back to my original point. I'm open to other ideas for mid season rep footy. I'm only suggesting what I did because its the next alternative to try after other failed experiments.

[Mathius Hellwege]

14 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Come on, be real. Those 14 teams are 90% of what makes our sport. Most of those other teams are a half hearted attempt at expansion. But I come back to my original point. I'm open to other ideas for mid season rep footy. I'm only suggesting what I did because its the next alternative to try after other failed experiments.

where in England is RL successfull far (this excludes Sheffield, sorry) away from M62?

London? York! Newcaste? Birmingham? Coventry? Bristol? Ipswich? Sunderland? Plymouth? 

[Griff]

On 15/08/2023 at 18:33, south yorkshire said:

I would create two teams team one The Super League LIONS (England players playing in super league ) verse The super league STARS ( all other nationalities playing in super league) Super League Lions could play in a Great Britain style kit. While the Stars play in a navy blue kit with stars on. The number of stars represent how many different nationality players are playing for the Stars. 3 match series. Give the series to channel four. Players would receive caps for appearances.   

[sigh]

Better still, create two new countries, Narnia and Ruritania and just draw the boundaries where you like.

[FearTheVee]

I'd settle for well organised post-season internationals before worrying too much about mid-season rep games.

[Mumby Magic]

3 hours ago, sam4731 said:

Come on, be real. Those 14 teams are 90% of what makes our sport. Most of those other teams are a half hearted attempt at expansion. But I come back to my original point. I'm open to other ideas for mid season rep footy. I'm only suggesting what I did because its the next alternative to try after other failed experiments.

With the exception of Cornwall all have been existence 10 years plus. Be real? You're the one proposing an event that was poorly supported 20 years ago and has no relevance now.

[sam4731]

16 minutes ago, Mumby Magic said:

With the exception of Cornwall all have been existence 10 years plus. Be real? You're the one proposing an event that was poorly supported 20 years ago and has no relevance now.

Existence is the right word. The fact that these teams have been in existence for so long but essentially made no progress (most of them), only strengthens my point. It not being staged in 20 years is not an excuse not to do it now. The Rugby league landscape was a lot different back then. We had a lot more clout on the international stage back then. What less relevance would a well staged, well marketed and well attended WotR, be than SoO?

Again I ask though, any suggestions on mid year rep footy are welcome.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

Really can't believe this is a discussed subject in modern day RL. Yes at professional level we a predominantly a Northern sport but nit necessarily a M62 sport.

Catalans

Wigan *

St Helens * 

Leigh *

Warrington *

Salford *

Hull KR *

Leeds *

Hull FC *

Huddersfield *

Castleford *

Wakefield *

Featherstone *

Toulouse

Bradford *

Sheffield 

Batley *

London

Halifax *

Widnes *

York

Whitehaven

Barrow

Keighley *

Swinton *

Newcastle 

Dewsbury *

Hunslet *

Doncaster

Oldham *

Workington

Crusaders

Rochdale *

Hurricanes

Cornwall

Skolars

The asteria denotes teams deemed as M62 clubs, despite clubs like Keighley being dome distance away. 14 out of 36 are not from the M62 region. Over a third. We need to open our eyes znd ghink positive. Anyone who thinks that a War of the Roses would be positive at top level RL needs their head shaking. Thoughts like is why we can never get ourselves out of the stereotypes we have pigeonholed ourselves into. 

What's the combined attendance of those 8 English clubs not in the Yorkshire/Lancashire region?

There's nothing to stop Wales playing France at the same time. Not Cumbria. I also noticed you bizarrely excluded Doncaster and Sheffield from Yorkshire!

I don't understand the embarrassment some have of being associated with our northern heritage. This can act as a celebration of that as well as a meaningful rep selection process. The previous incarnation of it held midweek cannot really act as a precedent for success. It wasn't given a fair chance in the modern age.