State of the RL Heartlands

[crashmon]

Hi All

Serious post here (unusual from me), but there have been a lot of topics recently where we havd danced around where best should the shrinking pool of money coming into RL be best targetted (considering that Money from external sources is dwindling, and so is central funding when you include impacts of Inflation, Energy costs, travel costs etc).

So before all the hate, I live in surrey, moved down from North West in 1999, and I only go up to M62 area on day trips to see the occasional England game (last time was France earlier this year), as most of my family also have migrated out of the north as well.

So I am generally curious on the state of RL in M62.   Are more youngsters playing the game, and coming through the community clubs etc into Champ and SL. Is it played in the schools

The reason for asking is that should we abandon any thoughs about expansion and make sure that the game in the Heartlands is growing, booming, kids are choosing it over PS5 and football etc.  Or is the Heartlands shrinking so to save the game we have to try and look elsewhere in order to keep the new blood coming into RL.

NRL looked like they first ensured that the game was strong and the number 1 game in town in Syndey and Queensland, before trying to move to new area's.  Is our game strong enough in Lancs \ Yorks ala NRL so that we can properly expand out.

Edited August 30, 2023 by crashmon

[sam4731]

27 minutes ago, crashmon said:

Hi All

Serious post here (unusual from me), but there have been a lot of topics recently where we havd danced around where best should the shrinking pool of money coming into RL be best targetted (considering that Money from external sources is dwindling, and so is central funding when you include impacts of Inflation, Energy costs, travel costs etc).

So before all the hate, I live in surrey, moved down from North West in 1999, and I only go up to M62 area on day trips to see the occasional England game (last time was France earlier this year), as most of my family also have migrated out of the north as well.

So I am generally curious on the state of RL in M62.   Are more youngsters playing the game, and coming through the community clubs etc into Champ and SL. Is it played in the schools

The reason for asking is that should we abandon any thoughs about expansion and make sure that the game in the Heartlands is gorwing, booming, kids are choosing it over PS5 and football etc.  Or is the Heartlands shrinking so to save the game we have to try and look elsewhere in order to keep the new blood coming into RL.

NRL looked like they first ensured that the game was strong and the number 1 game in town in Syndey and Queensland, before trying to move to new area's.  Is our game strong enough in Lancs \ Yroks ala NRL so that we can properly expand out.

The problem with this is that in NSW and QLD, league has been the dominant game for a long time. With a lot of the M62 corridor, football is still the dominant game and will never be displaced. This leaves us with areas that are almost exclusively league, such as St Helens, Castleford and Wakefield which all have fairly small populations so growing it beyond what it already is is fairly pointless.

Expansion is key, especially if we are looking at the financial side of things. If we are all in agreement that broadcasting and sponsorship is the best source of income, Sky are going to sell more dishes (or whatever the equivalent is), to big cities. Another reason to expand the game is that bigger city names are more interesting to the casual viewer. Whatever you thought of them, not many were tuning in to watch Toronto vs Dewsbury because Dewsbury were playing back when TWP were in the Championship/L1.

[Damien]

The strengthen the heartlands mantra has been spouted for years by some but its always hazy what is actually meant by that. Some seem to think there are mythical millions being spent outside the heartlands and in places like London when the reality is the game hasn't got a pot to **** in. I see no evidence of funding being diverted away from the heartlands to any meaningful degree and I don't see how what is sent elsewhere would make a difference if it was instead spent in Lancashire, Yorkshire or Cumbria.

I would also argue in a strictly numbers game that you would get far more bang for your buck in targeting new areas close to the heartlands, or close to existing competitions elsewhere, that can play in existing competitions and move out from there. Work on clusters as opposed to a scattergun approach of isolated activity. So as an example I think it would be easier to get 100 kids (and more) playing in Sunderland or Middlesbrough (as an example I'm not sure if there is already RL activity but don't think there is) in the North East league than getting another 100 kids playing in Wigan or Leigh. I think there should always be plenty of activity in heartland towns anyway led by the professional clubs and it is in their best interest to engage with children, the schools and the community clubs. They are the future fan and player base and if the professional club isn't doing this then it is failing.

So in short the game has to look to expand because a focus on the heartlands will see it shrink, and has seen it shrink. We do though need to do things much better in the heartlands too and it is a shame to see some proud RL clubs and towns shadows of what they once were.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Damien

[sam4731]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

The strengthen the heartlands mantra has been spouted for years by some but its always hazy what is actually meant by that. Some seem to think there are mythical millions being spent outside the heartlands and in places like London when the reality is the game hasn't got a pot to **** in. I see no evidence of funding being diverted away from the heartlands to any meaningful degree and I don't see how what is sent elsewhere would make a difference if it was instead spent in Lancashire, Yorkshire or Cumbria.

I would also argue in a strictly numbers game that you would get far more bang for your buck in targeting new areas close to the heartlands, or close to existing competitions elsewhere, that can play in existing competitions and move out from there. Work on clusters as opposed to a scattergun approach of isolated activity. So as an example I think it would be easier to get 100 kids (and more) playing in Sunderland or Middlesbrough (as an example I'm not sure if there is already RL activity but don't think there is) in the North East league than getting another 100 kids playing in Wigan or Leigh. I think there should always be plenty of activity in heartland towns anyway led by the professional clubs and it is in their best interest to engage with children, the schools and the community clubs. They are the future fan and player base and if the professional club isn't doing this then it is failing.

You say that targeting areas close to the heartlands is key bit if you look at places like Blackpool, Preston and Bolton, league is virtually non existent. Starting in these places would be the equivalent of growing the game in London or Birmingham, basically starting from scratch. So we might as well go for areas with big populations and that are attractive to broadcasters and sponsors if we are going to expand.

[ATLANTISMAN]

Juniors in London is doing very well 

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

You say that targeting areas close to the heartlands is key bit if you look at places like Blackpool, Preston and Bolton, league is virtually non existent. Starting in these places would be the equivalent of growing the game in London or Birmingham, basically starting from scratch. So we might as well go for areas with big populations and that are attractive to broadcasters and sponsors if we are going to expand.

I never said those places though did I and the emphasis was being able to play in existing competitions and working in clusters. You are also talking about on a different level with your talk of broadcasters and sponsors, this thread is about kids playing the game and community clubs. RL is not funding a SL team in London or Birmingham for development to flow beneath that.

With limited funds if you are talking about the North West then Manchester is the obvious one. Preston could be a hub close enough to the heartlands but still a big catchment area where RL doesn't really exist. Teams in these areas can easily play in existing, viable competitions. Then going South Birmingham and the towns around it, like Derby and Nottingham, where there already is limited RL activity in some places and South Yorkshire can be tapped into. Tap into what is already going on and look to support and grow out from it. The North East as I said and London obviously. Sure if someone wants to start a team in Norwich then let them work away but history shows that isolated activity usually fails and any development work is lost as they have no one to play and no league, or a very limited league, to play in.

[welshmagpie]

Junior rugby league is booming in south Wales, record numbers for the last three years running.

The trick now is ensuring the professional pathway remains in tact. Proof of it is below:

6 Welsh born and bred in Salford’s reserve side last week. 
 

3 in London’s.

1 due to join Warrington.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

Junior rugby league is booming in south Wales, record numbers for the last three years running.

The trick now is ensuring the professional pathway remains in tact. Proof of it is below:

6 Welsh born and bred in Salford’s reserve side last week. 
 

3 in London’s.

1 due to join Warrington.

Wales have absolutely done it the right way for a number of years now and focussing on making people RL players, rather than just relying on RU lads playing when they feel like it, has paid dividends. Their pathways are really good and I have heard some great things about the Welsh underage setups, such as u16s, and their regular training sessions.

[sam4731]

10 minutes ago, Damien said:

Wales have absolutely done it the right way for a number of years now and focussing on making people RL players, rather than just relying on RU lads playing when they feel like it, has paid dividends. Their pathways are really good and I have heard some great things about the Welsh underage setups, such as u16s, and their regular training sessions.

It begs the question, why have the Crusaders gone backwards this year. What's the final missing piece of the puzzle?

[Damien]

1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

It begs the question, why have the Crusaders gone backwards this year. What's the final missing piece of the puzzle?

Money? Setup? The RL heartlands and bigger clubs are as handy to get to from South Wales then no doubt lower down there are probably RU clubs close to home paying decent money. All just a guess.

[welshmagpie]

3 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

It begs the question, why have the Crusaders gone backwards this year. What's the final missing piece of the puzzle?

There’s a gap between a very strong U16 league and national team and men’s rugby league.

A few quality U16s get signed up by Warrington, Salford et al.

Other quality one’s return to rugby union academies with Scarlets etc. 

Some lose interest in sport as work, college and university loom large. 
 

The biggest thing though, with Crusaders training in Widnes - why would a young lad from Pontypridd, as an example, see that as an exciting opportunity when he could be pod as much/more playing semi-pro rugby union with his mates and be home in time for a beer with his local mates.

League One isn’t the answer I don’t think.

[welshmagpie]

I think the next, ambitious, step for Welsh RL is inclusion of an academy in the Super League academy League.

The existing academy is a ‘college’ set up playing nearby university teams, touring Italy, dual-reg with Salford etc.

 

[sam4731]

18 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

There’s a gap between a very strong U16 league and national team and men’s rugby league.

A few quality U16s get signed up by Warrington, Salford et al.

Other quality one’s return to rugby union academies with Scarlets etc. 

Some lose interest in sport as work, college and university loom large. 
 

The biggest thing though, with Crusaders training in Widnes - why would a young lad from Pontypridd, as an example, see that as an exciting opportunity when he could be pod as much/more playing semi-pro rugby union with his mates and be home in time for a beer with his local mates.

League One isn’t the answer I don’t think.

So maybe a RFL funded (yes I know, they're skint), Welsh League. Create meaningful pathways to English game and potentially eventually make the league on a parallel with the Championship with playoffs to determine promotion?

[Big Picture]

The OP overlooks the most important point: why kids take up a sport.

Whichever sport they take up, they do so because they dream of being the next Gretzky, Jordan or Beckenbauer, playing to capacity crowds in big venues and seen by big TV audiences.  That's what RL needs to get today's kids to choose this sport rather than another option.

[glossop saint]

2 hours ago, welshmagpie said:

There’s a gap between a very strong U16 league and national team and men’s rugby league.

A few quality U16s get signed up by Warrington, Salford et al.

Other quality one’s return to rugby union academies with Scarlets etc. 

Some lose interest in sport as work, college and university loom large. 
 

The biggest thing though, with Crusaders training in Widnes - why would a young lad from Pontypridd, as an example, see that as an exciting opportunity when he could be pod as much/more playing semi-pro rugby union with his mates and be home in time for a beer with his local mates.

League One isn’t the answer I don’t think.

This is where the argument for top down expansion comes in. Give Wales a SL club that the kids can aspire to play for, that can challenge in the playoffs and for the CC. Unfortunately this takes patience and money which is something as a sport we don't have.

[Dunbar]

52 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The OP overlooks the most important point: why kids take up a sport.

Whichever sport they take up, they do so because they dream of being the next Gretzky, Jordan or Beckenbauer, playing to capacity crowds in big venues and seen by big TV audiences.  That's what RL needs to get today's kids to choose this sport rather than another option.

I don't think that is true at all.  

Both when I was a kid and now when I see children of my friends taking up sport, they do it because it is fun and enjoyable.  They may admire the top players you mention but they are not focused on super star status at 8, 9, 10, 11 years of age... they just want to play a sport with their friends and have a good time.

[fighting irish]

55 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The OP overlooks the most important point: why kids take up a sport.

Whichever sport they take up, they do so because they dream of being the next Gretzky, Jordan or Beckenbauer, playing to capacity crowds in big venues and seen by big TV audiences.  That's what RL needs to get today's kids to choose this sport rather than another option.

That's not why kids take up sport at all.

It might be why some of them do, but certainly not all and not that many.

They take up sport, because it's fun to play, with their mates.

Providing a televised sport, that is played in big venues to capacity crowds certainly presents the game in a good light, but not every kid, playing park football, actually believes or even dreams they are going to be the next Gretzky, Jordan, or Beckenbauer.

They play because it's an enjoyable experience, in the moment.

Now i'll argue, that for a sizeable chunk of the population, playing rugby league, would be more enjoyable than playing anything else.

What we need to do, is provide the opportunities for them to do so and make them aware that they exist. 

[sam4731]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I don't think that is true at all.  

Both when I was a kid and now when I see children of my friends taking up sport, they do it because it is fun and enjoyable.  They may admire the top players you mention but they are not focused on super star status at 8, 9, 10, 11 years of age... they just want to play a sport with their friends and have a good time.

In an age of kids/teenagers buying PSG kits with Mbappe on the back, whilst support United, sport to them very much is about personalities and especially social media presence. I can guarantee you that if you had 10 kids per class in London with a Wigan top on with Marshall on the back, a lot of them would be playing league (or some playground version of it) at break time.

[fighting irish]

20 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

This is where the argument for top down expansion comes in. Give Wales a SL club that the kids can aspire to play for, that can challenge in the playoffs and for the CC. Unfortunately this takes patience and money which is something as a sport we don't have.

The absence of that Welsh SL club hasn't stopped the game growing to its present size.

It's grown because it's run by competent, passionate people, who love the game.

When the time is right, a pro club will emerge.

[fighting irish]

3 hours ago, sam4731 said:

It begs the question, why have the Crusaders gone backwards this year. What's the final missing piece of the puzzle?

No it doesn't Sam.

[glossop saint]

2 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

The absence of that Welsh SL club hasn't stopped the game growing to its present size.

It's grown because it's run by competent, passionate people, who love the game.

When the time is right, a pro club will emerge.

I hope so. I fear the risk is that the players will get continually picked off by bigger clubs and other sports. The cohort that came through at the time of Crusaders stint is now retiring. I hope that we have as many Welsh players in 5 years time as we did 5 years ago. And we can only speculate how many we would have had if Crusaders had been successful and hung around more than 3 or 4 years.

I hope that this isn't coming across as not appreciating the work done by those in the WRL now. They are doing an amazing job, I just wish they had more support and options for the upcoming players.

[fighting irish]

I don't believe its a local pro club, that attracts young players to play.

It is true, however that, the cyclic fortunes of the Pro and Semi pro clubs in Wales is partly due to the paucity of amateur clubs. I'm putting the horse, before the cart.

I'd estimate that before Wales could produce a sustainable SL club, the amateur game would have to be 10 times as big as it is now.

But the game does seem to be growing in popularity and in participation numbers, men women and children. 

I say, we should cheer them on and stop bemoaning the absence of a SL presence. 

[fighting irish]

3 hours ago, sam4731 said:

It begs the question, why have the Crusaders gone backwards this year. What's the final missing piece of the puzzle?

I'm sorry Sam my response to your post was abrupt (hastily prepared). i didn't mean to be rude to you.

The missing piece of the puzzle is the potential growth of the game in Wales.

The potential is that part, that doesn't already exist.

In order to provide adequate support to a pro or semi-pro team in Wales, i think the game needs be 10 times as big as it is now. Then a Super League club could emerge, with an adequate support base, funding etc.

There's no guarantee, even at that (but we'd have a great amateur competition).

Expecting Crusaders to go from strength to strength without that pyramid base, is (i believe) wishful thinking. 

[17 stone giant]

47 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Both when I was a kid and now when I see children of my friends taking up sport, they do it because it is fun and enjoyable.  They may admire the top players you mention but they are not focused on super star status at 8, 9, 10, 11 years of age... they just want to play a sport with their friends and have a good time.

I think it's sometimes the case that kids see major events on the tv and then want to try that sport as a result. Obviously when the national team is doing well, that process is amplified.

I think that apart from football - which pretty much every boy has played in some shape or form (an increasing number of girls too nowadays) - every other sport is partly reliant on finding ways to encourage kids to try them out. There must be plenty of kids that have never even picked up one or more of the following: rugby ball, golf club, cricket bat, hockey stick, snooker cue etc.

The challenge for rugby league is to try and put on some events that encourage kids to want to play, and then to back that up by providing them with the opportunity to do so. That's not easy, especially outside of the heartlands.

[sam4731]

7 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I'm sorry Sam my response to your post was abrupt (hastily prepared). i didn't mean to be rude to you.

The missing piece of the puzzle is the potential growth of the game in Wales.

The potential is that part, that doesn't already exist.

In order to provide adequate support to a pro or semi-pro team in Wales, i think the game needs be 10 times as big as it is now. Then a Super League club could emerge, with an adequate support base, funding etc.

There's no guarantee, even at that (but we'd have a great amateur competition).

Expecting Crusaders to go from strength to strength without that pyramid base, is (i believe) wishful thinking. 

I didn't think you were being rude, I just genuinely didn't understand your original response. Valid point I think but there seems a long way to go.