Championship Final: Win-Win for Super League next Sunday

[Bradman Better]

Two weeks ag nobody thought that Featherstone would not be in the final. And the assumption was that the little town in west Yorkshire would be promoted to Super League in 2024.

At last we are a guaranteed a big city team to be promoted to Super League in 2024. I wish that both teams could be promoted.

Whoever qualifies must spend money on new players to ensure that they stay up in 2025.

Although Toulouse have shown no evidence so far of rich backers or good corporate connections, they need to find them if they win promotion. 

Toulouse will have a much better stadium than London. Toulouse will also have an easier path than London to building a serious fan base -- if they can go on a winning run.

Toulouse will have to find a couple of quality NRL props, a quality half, and a quality centre. Pity they are too late to snare Paul Momirowski, who is going to Leeds. Maybe they could still snare Nene Macdonald if he hasn't already signed for Salford. But two big NRL props and an NRL quality half should be the first priority

[crashmon]

London have a SL stadium from Febto early May and from August onwards....

its only May, Juner and July they don't have a stadium which can host SL games.  Will have to do what they did 15 years ago and play games on the road each year.

Edited October 8, 2023 by crashmon

[Barley Mow]

11 minutes ago, Bradman Better said:

Two weeks ag nobody thought that Featherstone would not be in the final. And the assumption was that the little town in west Yorkshire would be promoted to Super League in 2024.

At last we are a guaranteed a big city team to be promoted to Super League in 2024. I wish that both teams could be promoted.

Whoever qualifies must spend money on new players to ensure that they stay up in 2025.

Although Toulouse have shown no evidence so far of rich backers or good corporate connections, they need to find them if they win promotion. 

Toulouse will have a much better stadium than London. Toulouse will also have an easier path than London to building a serious fan base -- if they can go on a winning run.

Toulouse will have to find a couple of quality NRL props, a quality half, and a quality centre. Pity they are too late to snare Paul Momirowski, who is going to Leeds. Maybe they could still snare Nene Macdonald if he hasn't already signed for Salford. But two big NRL props and an NRL quality half should be the first priority

Promotion/relegation next year isn't based on on-field performance (alone), but on the grading system IMG have brought in.

Points are calculated over a three year period and heavily weighted to clubs in Super League.

That means that if London are promoted, they will only have had one year of the in three in Super League and are therefore unlikely to get enough IMG points to be on the top 12 clubs come what may.

If Toulouse go up, it could be a close thing between them and Wakefield (both with two years out of three in SL) as to who gets the 12th place for 2025.

Thereafter, the incumbent 12 will continue to accumulate IMG points more effectively than those outside SL and so whoever those 12 are in 2025, they're likely to stay in SL long term.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Chris22]

The criteria are heavily skewed in favour of clubs that are presently in Super League, so whichever club does get promoted has a real shot of staying in the top flight for a very long time. 

With this being the last year of automatic promotion, the stakes are even higher than normal. The prize is just the same but the risk of going straight back down is almost zero (barring financial meltdown).

[Toby Chopra]

5 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Promotion/relegation next year isn't based on on-field performance (alone), but on the grading system IMG have brought in.

Points are calculated over a three year period and heavily weighted to clubs in Super League.

That means that if London are promoted, they will only have had one year of the in three in Super League and are therefore unlikely to get enough points to be on the top 12 clubs come what may.

If Toulouse go up, it could be a close thing between them and Wakefield (both with two years out of three in SL) as to who gets the 12th place for 2025.

Thereafter, the incumbent 12 will continue to accumulate points more effectively than those outside SL and so whoever those 12 are in 2025, they're likely to stay in SL long term.

Agree. Potentially the second biggest losers today after Fev are Wakey.

Toulouse - presumably now the favourite for promotion - are the one team that has a reasonable chance of exceeding Wakey's IMG score next season, because they too will have 2 years of Superleague to boost their grading.

It'll be a close run thing, especially if Toulouse can avoid finishing bottom.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Toby Chopra

[Hopie]

Good to see P+R is clear next year!

4 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Promotion/relegation next year isn't based on on-field performance (alone), but on the grading system IMG have brought in.

Points are calculated over a three year period and heavily weighted to clubs in Super League.

That means that if London are promoted, they will only have had one year of the in three in Super League and are therefore unlikely to get enough IMG points to be on the top 12 clubs come what may.

If Toulouse go up, it could be a close thing between them and Wakefield (both with two years out of three in SL) as to who gets the 12th place for 2025.

Thereafter, the incumbent 12 will continue to accumulate IMG points more effectively than those outside SL and so whoever those 12 are in 2025, they're likely to stay in SL long term.

 

1 minute ago, Chris22 said:

The criteria are heavily skewed in favour of clubs that are presently in Super League, so whichever club does get promoted has a real shot of staying in the top flight for a very long time. 

With this being the last year of automatic promotion, the stakes are even higher than normal. The prize is just the same but the risk of going straight back down is almost zero (barring financial meltdown).

 

[Guest]

A different point, but I genuinely enjoy the championship.

Hopefully we can build a sustainable and well supported second tier that has a place and value in its own right.

As tonight's game showed. 

Broncos going up and getting hammered by 30 every week isn't overly appealing. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

Agree. Potentially the second biggest losers today after Fev are Wakey.

Toulouse - presumably now the favourite for promotion - are the one team that has a reasonable chance of exceeding Wakey's IMG score next season, because they too will have 2 years of Superleague to boost their grading.

It'll be a close run thing, especially if Toulouse can avoid finishing bottom.

Precisely why we should have 14 teams. Of course London and Toulouse help by having their own distinct catchment areas for players. 

[Barley Mow]

5 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

The criteria are heavily skewed in favour of clubs that are presently in Super League, so whichever club does get promoted has a real shot of staying in the top flight for a very long time. 

With this being the last year of automatic promotion, the stakes are even higher than normal. The prize is just the same but the risk of going straight back down is almost zero (barring financial meltdown).

If London go up, they will almost certainly come back down under the IMG system - with only one year out of the three in SL they will find it almost impossible to accumulate more points than Wakefield who will have two years in SL out of three.

Toulouse going up could make Wakefield's task harder

Edited October 8, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Morris Wanchuk]

Oh yeah here we go, a wet dream for keyboard expansionist’s & yes London were by far the better team tonight. 

[Bamboozle]

It’s also a win-win for the seat counters.

[Chris22]

10 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

If London go up, they will only have one year out of the three in SL and will find it almost impossible to accumulate more points than Wakefield who will have two years in SL out of three.

Toulouse going up could make Wakefield's task harder

For finishing 12th this year Wakefield will get 2.7 points and London will get 2.3. But, if London get promoted, they would get a bonus, increasing the points for on field performance to 2.6 for the year. London will also secure 1.5 points due to 'catchment', as would Toulouse. That is quite a substantial weighting (it's 1/10th of the way to a Grade A rating)

London will score well on stadium and facilities too. There are points for TV viewing figures too. If there is no Championship TV coverage next year, Wakefield will take a big hit. Wakefield have also made just 4 TV appearances this season. I think London, despite being in a lower league, have made 3.

I'm not sure it's that clear cut.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Chris22

[sam4731]

I think people are forgetting that on field performance only accounts for 25% of the grade and the increments between places aren't that big. I don't know what their 3 year average will be but the difference between 11th (in SL) and 20th (8th in Champ), for example is just 1 point. 

[Barley Mow]

3 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

For finishing 12th this year Wakefield will get 2.7 points and London will get 2.3. But, if London get promoted, they would get a bonus, increasing the points for on field performance to 2.6 for the year. London will also secure 1.5 points due to 'catchment', as would Toulouse. That is quite a substantial weighting (it's 1/10th of the way to a Grade A rating)

London will score well on stadium and facilities too. There are points for TV viewing figures too. If there is no Championship TV coverage next year, Wakefield will take a big hit. Wakefield have also made just 4 TV appearances this season. I think London, despite being in a lower league, have made 3.

I'm it's that clear cut.

I think with the 2022 season counting, it would be clear cut - Wakefield finished 10th in SL, London 11th in Championship.

London's stadium utilisation figure will also let them down big time.

Wakefield's main negative is (as you say) the catchment calculation.

It was mainly your comment that for London or Toulouse "the risk of going straight back down is almost zero" which I disagreed with.

[Chris22]

3 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I think with the 2022 season counting, it would be clear cut - Wakefield finished 10th in SL, London 11th in Championship.

London's stadium utilisation figure will also let them down big time.

Wakefield's main negative is (as you say) the catchment calculation.

It was mainly your comment that for London or Toulouse "the risk of going straight back down is almost zero" which I disagreed with.

I must confess, it had slipped my mind quite how poor London were last year. Now you mention it, there was a real prospect of them dropping to League 1 for a period. Yes, fair point, that does change the dynamic. I suppose we will learn more when we do see the indicative gradings.

Maybe it's the sceptic in me that sees the prospect of IMG deciding to relegate a London side that gets promoted after one season as being very low (possibly even expanding the league, should Wakefield score higher).

[Barley Mow]

1 minute ago, Chris22 said:

I must confess, it had slipped my mind quite how poor London were last year. Now you mention it, there was a real prospect of them dropping to League 1 for a period. Yes, fair point, that does change the dynamic. I suppose we will learn more when we do see the indicative gradings.

Maybe it's the sceptic in me that sees the prospect of IMG deciding to relegate a London side that gets promoted after one season as being very low (possibly even expanding the league, should Wakefield score higher).

I think the indicative grades will be very interesting. It will show exactly how much of an advantage Super League incumbency actually is.

I wouldn't be surprised if SL went back to 14 teams in the next few years. Funding will be the only issue. It would be something I would welcome if the finances stack up.

[sam4731]

8 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I think with the 2022 season counting, it would be clear cut - Wakefield finished 10th in SL, London 11th in Championship.

London's stadium utilisation figure will also let them down big time.

Wakefield's main negative is (as you say) the catchment calculation.

It was mainly your comment that for London or Toulouse "the risk of going straight back down is almost zero" which I disagreed with.

Even if that was their 3 year average, which of course it won't be with the season to come (if London go up), that would give Wakefield a 1.5 point edge on London. League positions are not going to matter nearly as much as people think.

Like you said London's other problems may contribute to their lower grading but league performance won't damn them.

[Barley Mow]

1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

Even if that was their 3 year average, which of course it won't be with the season to come (if London go up), that would give Wakefield a 1.5 point edge on London. League positions are not going to matter nearly as much as people think.

Like you said London's other problems may contribute to their lower grading but league performance won't damn them.

Yep, I only anticipate league position being part of the wider picture.

[MattSantos]

11 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

I think the indicative grades will be very interesting. It will show exactly how much of an advantage Super League incumbency actually is.

I wouldn't be surprised if SL went back to 14 teams in the next few years. Funding will be the only issue. It would be something I would welcome if the finances stack up.

When are we likely to see those indicative grades?

[The Masked Poster]

12 hours ago, Bamboozle said:

It’s also a win-win for the seat counters.

You say that as if attendances aren’t VERY, VERY…..VERY important. 

[Barley Mow]

14 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

When are we likely to see those indicative grades?

Some time in the next couple of months I think.

[phiggins]

12 hours ago, Bradman Better said:

At last we are a guaranteed a big city team to be promoted to Super League in 2024.

 

A quick Google search suggests that the population of Wimbledon is less than 70,000.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

13 hours ago, Bradman Better said:

At last we are a guaranteed a big city team to be promoted to Super League in 2024. I wish that both teams could be promoted.

To be fair, 5 out of the 6 teams in the playoffs were big city teams. There was a good chance it would be at least one from a big city.

[Angelic Cynic]

16 hours ago, Bradman Better said:

Two weeks ag nobody thought that Featherstone would not be in the final. And the assumption was that the little town in west Yorkshire would be promoted to Super League in 2024.

At last we are a guaranteed a big city team to be promoted to Super League in 2024. I wish that both teams could be promoted.

Whoever qualifies must spend money on new players to ensure that they stay up in 2025.

Although Toulouse have shown no evidence so far of rich backers or good corporate connections, they need to find them if they win promotion. 

Toulouse will have a much better stadium than London. Toulouse will also have an easier path than London to building a serious fan base -- if they can go on a winning run.

Toulouse will have to find a couple of quality NRL props, a quality half, and a quality centre. Pity they are too late to snare Paul Momirowski, who is going to Leeds. Maybe they could still snare Nene Macdonald if he hasn't already signed for Salford. But two big NRL props and an NRL quality half should be the first priority

Toulouse will have to spend a fortune.

Should Mr Houles leave his position as head coach,as he has mentioned in the past,the cost of persuading a new head coach to take a precarious position,being in charge of so many new players,as well as paying for the clubs opponents travelling there and  auxiliary costs will be astronomical.

If they have the IMG points required they should save on team costs and just take the money and remain bottom of Super League. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, MattSantos said:

When are we likely to see those indicative grades?

When the big clubs have told IMG what they should be.