Is this the closest the big 3 nations have ever been to each other?

[NRLandSL]

With New Zealand's Thrashing of Australia and England currently having a super team, I think it's fair to say that the Big 3 nations are as close as we've ever seen. Yet NZ and ENG have not played since 2018 and AUS and ENG not since 2017, I think it shows we really need to bring back a 3 nations competition.

Edited November 5, 2023 by NRLandSL

[Dunbar]

I am encouraged by the England display against Tonga but I am not getting carried away.

Both the Kiwis and Kangaroos comfortably dispatched Samoa and they remain the teams to beat.  Of course we need to play them to test ourselves but English / Great Britain fans have had a few too many false dawns to get to excited.

[NRLandSL]

On 05/11/2023 at 11:48, Dunbar said:

I am encouraged by the England display against Tonga but I am not getting carried away.

Both the Kiwis and Kangaroos comfortably dispatched Samoa and they remain the teams to beat.  Of course we need to play them to test ourselves but English / Great Britain fans have had a few too many false dawns to get to excited.

Let's not forget England dispatched Samoa too last year by 60, They just screwed up in the important match. England on Paper have some of the best players in the world in almost every position and for me they've firmly placed themselves with Australia and NZ after this series, Also let's not forget Tonga beating NZ and AUS.

Edited November 6, 2023 by NRLandSL

[AB90]

It’s tough to say but with a bit more luck on injury front England have the making of a really good team.

The real test will be seeing England play in the southern hemisphere against not only Aus & NZ but also Tonga & Samoa. Let’s not underestimate the huge advantage England have when playing at home in the wet slow tracks in the north of England (with English refs, English ruck speed & more Super League style rule/play interpretations).

It’s a very different proposition playing the southern hemisphere teams on the hard, flat tracks during the Aussie spring (with Aussie refs, NRL style ruck speed, NRL style rule/play interpretations etc).

I still think England are a bit behind Aus & NZ. If you did a combined England & Australia team how many English would make the team - Farnworth would be my only real certainty imo so there is gulf in player vs player standard.

[ghost crayfish]

1 minute ago, AB90 said:

It’s tough to say but with a bit more luck on injury front England have the making of a really good team.

The real test will be seeing England play in the southern hemisphere against not only Aus & NZ but also Tonga & Samoa. Let’s not underestimate the huge advantage England have when playing at home in the wet slow tracks in the north of England (with English refs, English ruck speed & more Super League style rule/play interpretations).

It’s a very different proposition playing the southern hemisphere teams on the hard, flat tracks during the Aussie spring (with Aussie refs, NRL style ruck speed, NRL style rule/play interpretations etc).

I still think England are a bit behind Aus & NZ. If you did a combined England & Australia team how many English would make the team - Farnworth would be my only real certainty imo so there is gulf in player vs player standard.

Not so sure about that. Comparing the two lineups from this weekend I'd take Welsby over Tedesco and Johnston over Edwards, Clarke is a much better 9 than Ben Hunt and Whitehead and Bateman are both much better 2nd rowers than Cotter. There is also a case for George Williams over DCE, who has never fired for Australia. Then we need to remember England were without their two best outside backs in Farnworth and Young, as well as proven the world class of Makinson in the backs and Walmsley in the forwards.

When you also think about how much guys like Pryce, Pearce-Paul and Smithies may improve in the NRL, and there is definite reason for optimism as an English fan. It's a shame they are playing Samoa next year and not NZ, as I think they need a step up in standard next before they tour Australia.

[17 stone giant]

1 hour ago, NRLandSL said:

Yet NZ and ENG have not played since 2018

Well, we did really in 2019, albeit in GB shirts. We lost them both.

Had we not fluffed the semi final last year, we would have had a chance to test ourselves against Australia.

I do agree with you though that we need more games again the best teams. Won't be until 2025 though. Then we'll see.

[NRLandSL]

44 minutes ago, AB90 said:

It’s tough to say but with a bit more luck on injury front England have the making of a really good team.

The real test will be seeing England play in the southern hemisphere against not only Aus & NZ but also Tonga & Samoa. Let’s not underestimate the huge advantage England have when playing at home in the wet slow tracks in the north of England (with English refs, English ruck speed & more Super League style rule/play interpretations).

It’s a very different proposition playing the southern hemisphere teams on the hard, flat tracks during the Aussie spring (with Aussie refs, NRL style ruck speed, NRL style rule/play interpretations etc).

I still think England are a bit behind Aus & NZ. If you did a combined England & Australia team how many English would make the team - Farnworth would be my only real certainty imo so there is gulf in player vs player standard.

I think overstating the difference between playing in England and Australia, of course there are advantages and disadvantages for both but England are a team of world-class players (Plenty of whom play in Australia) and I have no doubt would perform the same down here in AUS.

As for a combined England And AUS side I would choose Welsby over Tedesco (Even as a roosters fan) Welsby has much more aspects to his game, In terms of Outside backs Johnstone, Makinson, Young, and Farnworth would all start for Australia every day of the week in my eyes. England's Outside backs are far stronger than Australias. George Williams is right up with cleary but I would probably lean towards cleary or maybe they would partner, And forwards like Walmsley and Bateman would be firmly in the Aussie 17.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by NRLandSL

[AB90]

28 minutes ago, ghost crayfish said:

Not so sure about that. Comparing the two lineups from this weekend I'd take Welsby over Tedesco and Johnston over Edwards, Clarke is a much better 9 than Ben Hunt and Whitehead and Bateman are both much better 2nd rowers than Cotter. There is also a case for George Williams over DCE, who has never fired for Australia. Then we need to remember England were without their two best outside backs in Farnworth and Young, as well as proven the world class of Makinson in the backs and Walmsley in the forwards.

When you also think about how much guys like Pryce, Pearce-Paul and Smithies may improve in the NRL, and there is definite reason for optimism as an English fan. It's a shame they are playing Samoa next year and not NZ, as I think they need a step up in standard next before they tour Australia.

Yes, of course they would be strong consideration for others which is why I used the term ‘certainty’ (I.e 100% automatic starter, no question, not for debate).

The other English players you mention may be considered but the majority wouldn’t make a combined Aus/Eng team imo.

Welsby: Agree regarding Tedesco but would Welsby automatically start over Tedesco, Walsh, Ponga & Edwards? Most would say no I imagine.

Young/Johnstone/Makinson: One would be a decent shout for a wing spot I reakon. I would still have Josh Ado-Carr on the other wing.

Clarke: Maybe. Grant for me is still far and away the best hooker in the world.

Whitehead/Bateman: Cotter is an odd start as he is normally a middle. I’d still take Martin & Murray. Whitehaven is great but he is 34 and on the decline albeit he’s been amazing this series & last years WC. A lot of people would say Whiteheads not even the best 2nd rower at Canberra with Hudson Young overtaking him.

George Williams: Agreed regarding Cherry Evans but Cleary starts ahead of him without question.

[AB90]

10 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

I think overstating the difference between playing in England and Australia, of course there are advantages and disadvantages for both but England are a team of world-class players (Plenty of whom play in Australia) and I have no doubt would perform the same down here in AUS.

As for a combined England And AUS side I would choose Welsby over Tedesco (Even as a roosters fan) Welsby has much more aspects to his game, In terms of Outside backs Johnstone, Makinson, Young, and Farnworth would all start for Australia every day of the week in my eyes. England's Outside backs are far stronger than Australias. George Williams is right up with cleary but I would probably lean towards cleary or maybe they would partner, And forwards like Walmsley and Bateman would be firmly in the Aussie 17.

 

Yeah that’s fair enough.

Would you take Welsby over Walsh or Ponga?

Before anointing this England team as a ‘Super Team’ I just think England need to do a bit more than just beat the 5th ranked team in the world at home. Albeit, they won very well!

[NRLandSL]

14 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Yeah that’s fair enough.

Would you take Welsby over Walsh or Ponga?

Before anointing this England team as a ‘Super Team’ I just think England need to do a bit more than just beat the 5th ranked team in the world at home. Albeit, they won very well!

Yes, I would choose Welsby over Ponga and Walsh, Jack Welsby is truly one of the best players in the world. He can beat defenders like it's nothing, Very Quick, Superb offloading game, Great defense and safety under the high ball, Fantastic Support play, and a world-class passing and distribution game. There is no other fullback in the world quite like him. Ponga and Walsh are are great but i would still place Welsby a tier above them, though it is close and i have no problem with someone saying ponga is better.

[Whippet13]

Plenty of reasons to be positive for England looking at the current squad plus new talent that is emerging. One additional player to the above I've been impressed with is Harry Smith. Made his debut v France and player of the series v Tonga, he has looked very much at home in the side and got better in every game. With Hampshire, Smith and the emerging Lewis we have some decent choices in the halves for the first time in years.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

Actually the continents are still slowly moving further apart, continuous since the break up of Pangaea. Obviously with the world being round they will eventually start moving back together again but that will take millions of years. 

[NRLandSL]

22 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

Plenty of reasons to be positive for England looking at the current squad plus new talent that is emerging. One additional player to the above I've been impressed with is Harry Smith. Made his debut v France and player of the series v Tonga, he has looked very much at home in the side and got better in every game. With Hampshire, Smith and the emerging Lewis we have some decent choices in the halves for the first time in years.

Yeah I’ve been really impressed with Harry smith as well, he could have the England 7 Jersey for a While. I assume you mean someone else when you said Hampshire, but England have a lot of depth in the Halves.

1-Williams

2-Smith

3-Lomax

4-Lewis

5-Hastings*

6-Dodd

7-Abdull

8-Sneyd

All of whom are top quality half backs.

[Mark S]

England have a mental block when they play Australia, along with always having to play with an Aussie ref. If they can get past the mental block and play to their strengths they have as much chance as anyone to beat the Kangaroos.

[dkw]

I think first 17's there's very little between all 3, the problem is that will rarely happen and England's depth in squad is less than the other 2, though again there not a huge amount in it.

 

[graveyard johnny]

if England could play AUS next week and also give them a pasting it would really put the cat among the pigeons but thats all ifs and buts - by the time we get to play them now they will have ponga walsh mam etc entering the fold in their prime with a possible fit and raring latrell mitchell  paps or turbo adding the experience but lets see 

[Dunbar]

If this discussion includes Great Britain and England as essentially part of the 'big 3' then in my memory the closest we have been to Australia in terms of performances and results is between 1990 and 1994.

We played 10 games against the Kangaroos in that time and while we only won 3, the average score was 10-16 and five of the ten games finished with a margin of 7 points or fewer.

I often wonder what the landscape of international League would have looked like for the next few decades if Great Britain had won either the deciding ashes test (lost 10-16) or World Cup final (lost 6-10) in 1992. 

[Damien]

I think it's always hard to judge on the back of tours to this country.  Every team bar Australia has a bad tour in them where they seem to struggle badly, for various reasons, and generally just seem ill prepared and out of sorts. We have even seen this at times from New Zealand and ourselves have been victim of this when going down under.

Tonga were a bit disappointing in the World Cup. In the Samoa game I kept expecting them to turn it on and come good but they never did. I do though think they are a better team than Samoa on their day with a full compliment.

England have a talented team with real strength in depth in the backs, relative to what we have had since the early 1990s. Its an exciting squad and I certainly think we can beat NZ and give Australia a good game if we can get over that mental block. We need games though to really test ourselves and develop any sort of consistency. I would love to have seen an Ashes tour to these shores next year to really test ourselves but alas that isn't going to happen.