NRL Salary Cap Exemption for Rival Code Signings

[unapologetic pedant]

6 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

New stadium at these clubs had a big impact, Warrington would be around 6/7 if still at wilderspool, Saints also at knowsley road, FC at boulevard.

These factors far outweigh where the players come from.

But on big signing from Union or NRL make waves, I remember going to Widnes with quite a few wires (we weren't playing) to see Davies and the people who turned up at Warrington for Joey John's debut were from outside the playing clubs.

I agree. New stadia can increase crowds consistently and sustainably. Big signings increase crowds not-so consistently and not-so sustainably.

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think we need to consider good money vs bad money.

Good money is getting immediate headlines and a ten year champion.

Bad money is headlines finishing as soon as they started because said player can’t crack first grade.

Your other sporting passion is a powerful example that confidently doing your own thing in your own way is the best route to lasting success.

And an object lesson in how to fall flat on your face if you flirt with cheap headlines (Folau GWS).

[ELBOWSEYE]

30 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

What drives TV viewership for 8 NRL games per week over the course of a season is entrenched familiarity with the players, the clubs and the comp. One-off factors, like seeing how a RU signing might fare in his debut, may bump up the ratings for individual games, but I do not believe such factors play any part in the value of the deals. 

I also think the NRL is not short of big names, so an odd union signing wouldn't have such a bigger impact.

 

[unapologetic pedant]

4 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

I also think the NRL is not short of big names, so an odd union signing wouldn't have such a bigger impact.

This is the point. They produce their own big names. And always have.

For a hundred years, we went out of our way to give the impression that we rely on another sport for national media relevance. And going cold turkey since the fixes dried up. We need to stay clean.

[Click]

13 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

This is the point. They produce their own big names. And always have.

For a hundred years, we went out of our way to give the impression that we rely on another sport for national media relevance. And going cold turkey since the fixes dried up. We need to stay clean.

I am not sure on what this means?

52 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I agree. New stadia can increase crowds consistently and sustainably. Big signings increase crowds not-so consistently and not-so sustainably.

I don't think anyone is saying that signing these players from other codes/sports is supposed to be the only way to increase crowds. It should be something that is ontop of a whole host of other things clubs and the sport should be doing. 

As an example, I think the last full RU game I watched was the last match Burgess played for England RU. I wouldn't have watched it if he wasn't playing - but he brought my eyes to the game. Obviously, it didn't work out. But the thought should be to attract new people to watch the sport who may want to watch the sport their favourite/a player they like has moved to. If our sport is good enough, perhaps they will continue to watch. 

SBW at Toronto brought huge media attention, many more eyes at the time for SL then anything anyone else was doing, it didn't work out in the end but if the club and he had stuck around, who knows what could have happened next. 

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think we need to consider good money vs bad money.

Good money is getting immediate headlines and a ten year champion.

Bad money is headlines finishing as soon as they started because said player can’t crack first grade.

Rather than spending $1.4m a year on one player, I think there is a lot more to be said for paying NRL minimum wage to highly skilled, highly motivated and highly routined sportsman who haven’t made the transition from College Football to NFL. Bring 10-20 of them a year into camp for a 1+1+1 programme including playing opportunities in lower grades as well as work opportunities ideally suited to their subject of study during College.

Said players get 12 months to impress, 6-9 are retained for another 12 months and then 3-6 are retained for a final 3rd year if they haven’t been picked up by an NRL club already.

If anything, I feel the motivation of the man who has been given a second chance after being cut from his dreams will be far greater than a highly paid, high profile code swapper. Let alone how much better it would be for the dynamic amongst amy playing group where a potential untested player comes to the sport and club as one of its highest paid players.

Realistically that would only work with teams here in North America.  Those guys aren't about to go halfway around the world to a country they know nothing about just for a longshot chance at going pro.

[unapologetic pedant]

1 hour ago, Click said:

I am not sure on what this means?

Reckon I've fairly comprehensively set out what this means throughout the thread. Some observers still don't understand why League continued to exist after Union went pro. Think through the implications of that level of persistent widespread ignorance.

 

1 hour ago, Click said:

As an example, I think the last full RU game I watched was the last match Burgess played for England RU. I wouldn't have watched it if he wasn't playing - but he brought my eyes to the game. Obviously, it didn't work out. But the thought should be to attract new people to watch the sport who may want to watch the sport their favourite/a player they like has moved to. If our sport is good enough, perhaps they will continue to watch. 

Clearly didn't turn you into a regular RU viewer. Probably because you are more familiar with, or just prefer, RL. Why should it be any different the other way round?

 

1 hour ago, Click said:

SBW at Toronto brought huge media attention, many more eyes at the time for SL then anything anyone else was doing, it didn't work out in the end but if the club and he had stuck around, who knows what could have happened next. 

Best guess is that the hoopla would have fizzled out as per usual. Although I would concede that the forces at play in North America are potentially more propitious. 

[Dunbar]

2 hours ago, Click said:

As an example, I think the last full RU game I watched was the last match Burgess played for England RU. I wouldn't have watched it if he wasn't playing - but he brought my eyes to the game. Obviously, it didn't work out. But the thought should be to attract new people to watch the sport who may want to watch the sport their favourite/a player they like has moved to. If our sport is good enough, perhaps they will continue to watch.

 

20 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Clearly didn't turn you into a regular RU viewer. Probably because you are more familiar with, or just prefer, RL. Why should it be any different the other way round?

Completely agree with UP.

I can't see how taking someone's favourite player away from their favourite sport is going to win new fans.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

 

Completely agree with UP.

I can't see how taking someone's favourite player away from their favourite sport is going to win new fans.

Whilst believing it wouldn't work now, the constant flow of Welsh RU players 'going north' did mean that Welsh folk in south Wales had an interest in, and followed, rugby league.

How do I know?

That's where my family's from. There's a bunch of them who follow(ed) Salford(*) entirely because that's where David Watkins went. The wider flow meant that area had an interest in RL they wouldn't have had otherwise.

(* = including attending games, not just at a remove)

[Copa]

3 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

I also think the NRL is not short of big names, so an odd union signing wouldn't have such a bigger impact.

 

A currently famous English rugby union player is also not a big name in the minds of nrl fans. I doubt many even know of many current wallaby’s players let alone any from England. If the nrl grabs any, it will be for playing potential, not for headlines.

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Realistically that would only work with teams here in North America.  Those guys aren't about to go halfway around the world to a country they know nothing about just for a longshot chance at going pro.

You seem overly sure of that. I think you are underestimating the pulling power of prolonging and potentially successfully carving out a lucrative sporting career in one of the world’s leading lifestyle choice locations.

[The Rocket]

7 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Funny how the game is on its knees now but a champion team full of cross code superstars averaged less than the 2023 Super League average.

 

6 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

yet most of the comparable attendances are higher today

From 1985 to 2023 the population of England has increased by 20 %, have Rugby League crowds increased by a similar amount.

I don`t know the spread of that population increase, but given more disadvantaged areas often have higher birth rates may some of the areas in question even actually increased more than the national figure.

In fact a quick look at West Yorkshire pop. figures shows a 25 % increase over the same period.

[The Rocket]

10 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I think we need to consider good money vs bad money.

Good money is getting immediate headlines and a ten year champion.

Bad money is headlines finishing as soon as they started because said player can’t crack first grade.

Rather than spending $1.4m a year on one player, I think there is a lot more to be said for paying NRL minimum wage to highly skilled, highly motivated and highly routined sportsman who haven’t made the transition from College Football to NFL. Bring 10-20 of them a year into camp for a 1+1+1 programme including playing opportunities in lower grades as well as work opportunities ideally suited to their subject of study during College.

Said players get 12 months to impress, 6-9 are retained for another 12 months and then 3-6 are retained for a final 3rd year if they haven’t been picked up by an NRL club already.

If anything, I feel the motivation of the man who has been given a second chance after being cut from his dreams will be far greater than a highly paid, high profile code swapper. Let alone how much better it would be for the dynamic amongst amy playing group where a potential untested player comes to the sport and club as one of its highest paid players.

Basically what you`re saying:

“The NRL needs to be looking for athletic, powerful athletes,” said NRL sports agent Chris Orr, whose firm Pacific Sports Management has run rugby league combines in Australia for the past five years and also was engaged by the NFL in 2018 to run the inaugural NFL International Combine, along with attending the NFL combines over the past decade.

“I don’t think the NRL would be looking for a spine player, in the same way the NFL pathways aren’t searching for a quarterback. We are looking at wingers, centres, back-rowers and props.

“There’s about 14,500 athletes who have trained like professionals for four years in state-of-the-art facilities and played in front of 100,000 people, who have come to the end of their sporting journey.

“Any college player being considered needs to be identified immediately, so they can be given rugby league video drills, online education and data on what they need to achieve so they can show off their best selves come next March.

”Orr, who works closely with colleges and NFL clubs, feels top American college footballers could make the transition to the NRL with the right guidance.

“What I do know about college American athletes is that if you give them a task and set them goals, they will train their butts off to achieve them, especially if you give them a professional contract as a carrot,” he said.

“Imagine if we did it five years in a row, that we brought five or 10 or 15 players at a time. They could filter through all our grades and competitions and you would start to get Americans watching the code. That’s what you need if you want the American audiences to buy in.”

 

 

 

 

[Sports Prophet]

5 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Basically what you`re saying:

“The NRL needs to be looking for athletic, powerful athletes,” said NRL sports agent Chris Orr, whose firm Pacific Sports Management has run rugby league combines in Australia for the past five years and also was engaged by the NFL in 2018 to run the inaugural NFL International Combine, along with attending the NFL combines over the past decade.

“I don’t think the NRL would be looking for a spine player, in the same way the NFL pathways aren’t searching for a quarterback. We are looking at wingers, centres, back-rowers and props.

“There’s about 14,500 athletes who have trained like professionals for four years in state-of-the-art facilities and played in front of 100,000 people, who have come to the end of their sporting journey.

“Any college player being considered needs to be identified immediately, so they can be given rugby league video drills, online education and data on what they need to achieve so they can show off their best selves come next March.

”Orr, who works closely with colleges and NFL clubs, feels top American college footballers could make the transition to the NRL with the right guidance.

“What I do know about college American athletes is that if you give them a task and set them goals, they will train their butts off to achieve them, especially if you give them a professional contract as a carrot,” he said.

“Imagine if we did it five years in a row, that we brought five or 10 or 15 players at a time. They could filter through all our grades and competitions and you would start to get Americans watching the code. That’s what you need if you want the American audiences to buy in.”

 

 

 

 

Chris is an intelligent visionary who should be listened to more often.

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Whilst believing it wouldn't work now, the constant flow of Welsh RU players 'going north' did mean that Welsh folk in south Wales had an interest in, and followed, rugby league.

I took an interest in RL players turning out for RU teams. So it's no surprise to hear anecdotal evidence of similar sprinklings of regard for RU players in RL.

I doubt it ever amounted to much and has to be set beside the deep countervailing harm caused by painting RL as a mercenary subservient imitation of RU.

The current grass roots RL scene in Wales is far more substantive and promising than anything during the period of high-profile cross-code converts.

[unapologetic pedant]

39 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Basically what you`re saying:

“The NRL needs to be looking for athletic, powerful athletes,” said NRL sports agent Chris Orr, whose firm Pacific Sports Management has run rugby league combines in Australia for the past five years and also was engaged by the NFL in 2018 to run the inaugural NFL International Combine, along with attending the NFL combines over the past decade.

“I don’t think the NRL would be looking for a spine player, in the same way the NFL pathways aren’t searching for a quarterback. We are looking at wingers, centres, back-rowers and props.

“There’s about 14,500 athletes who have trained like professionals for four years in state-of-the-art facilities and played in front of 100,000 people, who have come to the end of their sporting journey.

“Any college player being considered needs to be identified immediately, so they can be given rugby league video drills, online education and data on what they need to achieve so they can show off their best selves come next March.

”Orr, who works closely with colleges and NFL clubs, feels top American college footballers could make the transition to the NRL with the right guidance.

“What I do know about college American athletes is that if you give them a task and set them goals, they will train their butts off to achieve them, especially if you give them a professional contract as a carrot,” he said.

“Imagine if we did it five years in a row, that we brought five or 10 or 15 players at a time. They could filter through all our grades and competitions and you would start to get Americans watching the code. That’s what you need if you want the American audiences to buy in.”

 

 

 

 

Seem to remember that Eddie Waring was a big advocate for giving Americans a go in English RL.

[gingerjon]

6 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The current grass roots RL scene in Wales is far more substantive and promising than anything during the period of high-profile cross-code converts.

It wouldn't take much for what's happening now to be better than then. But it never needed to be either/or. That was a choice made by rugby league.

[nadera78]

Offering salary cap dispensation for union players isn't really about bringing in a star name, although it will offer a sprinkling of additional NRL-standard players. It's really about sticking the knife into a rival sport that is on life support in Australia.

[Click]

7 hours ago, gingerjon said:

It wouldn't take much for what's happening now to be better than then. But it never needed to be either/or. That was a choice made by rugby league.

I think this is the point. If a club or the sport is signing players from other codes instead of doing anything else to grow the sport from wherever they're from then it won't be beneficial or cost effective.

If RL had capitalised on the increased interest in the sport from all the RU players moving from Wales, then those cross code signings would have been beneficial long term. But this is RL, so it was never going to be like that.

[unapologetic pedant]

17 minutes ago, Click said:

I think this is the point. If a club or the sport is signing players from other codes instead of doing anything else to grow the sport from wherever they're from then it won't be beneficial or cost effective.

If RL had capitalised on the increased interest in the sport from all the RU players moving from Wales, then those cross code signings would have been beneficial long term. But this is RL, so it was never going to be like that.

A Welsh amateur "Rugby" system prolifically producing players for a small professional "Rugby" circuit. This was the ingrained perception. "Cross-code" equated to "turning pro".

Against that backdrop, why would anyone spend time and money developing a parallel "Rugby" system?

[Click]

1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

A Welsh amateur "Rugby" system prolifically producing players for a small professional "Rugby" circuit. This was the ingrained perception. "Cross-code" equated to "turning pro".

Against that backdrop, why would anyone spend time and money developing a parallel "Rugby" system?

It isn't really possible to answer that without the benefit of hindsight and seeing how RL not forming those explicit pathways for themselves turned out for it in the country.

The system at the time was very short term minded, with English RL clubs picking some of the best Welsh RU players and letting RU get on with whatever they were doing beforehand. 

You would hope if it was a similar position now, they would invest more into the region to produce the talent for themselves, rather than cherrypicking.

[DACS]

NRL clubs have been targeting kids out of the school RU system for years. A lot of kids go to good schools on rugby scholarships as well as the usual posh kids. Rather than waiting for them to become Wallabies its far cheaper to offer them contracts straight out of school. This is one of the reasons why the Wallabies are getting weaker over time, as the NRL is taking a lot of their best juniors.

The reason for the talk about signing Wallabies was the fear of movement the other way such as Sua'ali'i. Eddie Jones had made targeting NRL signings a priority, like he did when he was coach way back when. Fortunately the ARU simply hasn't got the cash right to do that even if it wanted to.

There are a few factors working in RU's favour in the near future - a Lions tour (2025 I think?) and RU world cup in 2027. The last world cup here was a huge event and moneyspinner for RU, and the 2027 one will be as well.

[Jonty58]

You are right DACS.
The Aussies have just sacked the Union Chairman.

Phil Waugh has come out and stated they will no longer be looking at signing NRL stars because they cannot afford it and they should be trying to retain their juniors.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Jonty58

[The Rocket]

A little unrelated but definitely newsworthy; following on from the abandonment by the companies Harvey Norman and Etoro`s of their respective multi-million-dollar sponsorship of Oz union, and rumours that main sponsor Cadbury are reconsidering theirs, it is being reported that West Australian rugby union team owner and union benefactor Andrew `Twiggy` Forest of Fortescue Minerals is about to make his first venture into sponsoring Rugby League:

"Billionaire mining magnate Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest is poised to take his first steps into rugby league after finalising a multimillion-dollar partnership with the St George Illawarra Dragons.

"The Dragons, one of Australian sport’s most iconic brands, are on the verge of signing off on a $1.2m-a-season major sponsorship deal to advertise Forrest’s renewable energy company, Squadron Energy, on the front of their jersey from 2025.

"The deal with the Dragons will be Forrest’s first foray into rugby league. Australia’s second-richest person, Forrest has been one of Australian rugby’s biggest supporters, having poured millions of dollars into Super Rugby franchise Western Force since 2017.

 

"The NRL is aware of the pending deal and has welcomed the news of Forrest’s venture into the 13-man code due to the financial and emotional investment he has previously given rugby union.

"Forrest has an assessed net worth of $33.29 billion according to the Financial Review 2023 Rich List and sits behind only Gina Rinehart on Australia’s rich list."

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

A little unrelated but definitely newsworthy; following on from the abandonment by the companies Harvey Norman and Etoro`s of their respective multi-million-dollar sponsorship of Oz union, and rumours that main sponsor Cadbury are reconsidering theirs, it is being reported that West Australian rugby union team owner and union benefactor Andrew `Twiggy` Forest of Fortescue Minerals is about to make his first venture into sponsoring Rugby League:

"Billionaire mining magnate Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest is poised to take his first steps into rugby league after finalising a multimillion-dollar partnership with the St George Illawarra Dragons.

"The Dragons, one of Australian sport’s most iconic brands, are on the verge of signing off on a $1.2m-a-season major sponsorship deal to advertise Forrest’s renewable energy company, Squadron Energy, on the front of their jersey from 2025.

"The deal with the Dragons will be Forrest’s first foray into rugby league. Australia’s second-richest person, Forrest has been one of Australian rugby’s biggest supporters, having poured millions of dollars into Super Rugby franchise Western Force since 2017.

 

"The NRL is aware of the pending deal and has welcomed the news of Forrest’s venture into the 13-man code due to the financial and emotional investment he has previously given rugby union.

"Forrest has an assessed net worth of $33.29 billion according to the Financial Review 2023 Rich List and sits behind only Gina Rinehart on Australia’s rich list."

Good news. Warms the heart to see the loss of one US Billionaire sports investor to soccer but gaining a richer Aus Billionaire investor into RL. 

My biggest concern with Twiggy is whether his millions are long lasting after his divorce sees that fortune drop to a miserly $16b.