Question - the Northern Union

[Coastal_Geordie]

I wonder if anyone can help with this question.  When the Rugby Union/League split happened and that group of northern teams formed the northern union - why were no teams from the north east of England involved?

I think we are all aware Rugby League has minimal foothold in the north east, Magic Weekend aside it hasn’t been very successful if we are honest.  Rugby Union is somewhat more successful with a reasonable amateur foothold and the top division Newcastle Falcons team (however football dominates all in the north east by some margin).

Some of the amateur Rugby clubs in the north east have history going back into the 19th century, pre dating the league/union split.  It seems strange to me that the north east was not involved in the Northern Union with similar demographics to Yorkshire/Lancashire.  I’ve attempted a little research myself but no luck.

[Damien]

There was Wallsend and South Shields teams a few years after the split but they were short lived.

[Futtocks]

23 minutes ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

I wonder if anyone can help with this question.  When the Rugby Union/League split happened and that group of northern teams formed the northern union - why were no teams from the north east of England involved?

I think we are all aware Rugby League has minimal foothold in the north east, Magic Weekend aside it hasn’t been very successful if we are honest.  Rugby Union is somewhat more successful with a reasonable amateur foothold and the top division Newcastle Falcons team (however football dominates all in the north east by some margin).

Some of the amateur Rugby clubs in the north east have history going back into the 19th century, pre dating the league/union split.  It seems strange to me that the north east was not involved in the Northern Union with similar demographics to Yorkshire/Lancashire.  I’ve attempted a little research myself but no luck.

Newcastle RU's period of success was pretty recent and looks like it isn't lasting too well. Sir John Hall (who bankrolled Newcastle United at the same time) pumped money into RU, Ice Hockey and Basketball in the city, striving for a multi-sport club culture like Barcelona. Prior to that, the Newcastle Gosforth RU club were second division at best.

That part of the country has always been a hotbed of Football and Athletics (particularly long/middle distance running).

Why Rugby League didn't make inroads - I suspect the usual myopia and mistrust of the new that has characterised the majority of our sport's history.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Futtocks

[EggFace]

I don't understand how Hartlepool never went over to Northern Union with it's number of Union clubs in a area with a small population that resembles some area's in League heartland but also South Wales.

Before the Falcons we had Gosforth Rugby Union and the County game and they had a ground that also had Greyhound Racing ( sound's familer) in a area which in my eyes is far more posher then say Jesmond.

Funny enough I'm working in Gosforth tomorrow.

Edited November 13, 2023 by EggFace

[Barley Mow]

30 minutes ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

I wonder if anyone can help with this question.  When the Rugby Union/League split happened and that group of northern teams formed the northern union - why were no teams from the north east of England involved?

I think we are all aware Rugby League has minimal foothold in the north east, Magic Weekend aside it hasn’t been very successful if we are honest.  Rugby Union is somewhat more successful with a reasonable amateur foothold and the top division Newcastle Falcons team (however football dominates all in the north east by some margin).

Some of the amateur Rugby clubs in the north east have history going back into the 19th century, pre dating the league/union split.  It seems strange to me that the north east was not involved in the Northern Union with similar demographics to Yorkshire/Lancashire.  I’ve attempted a little research myself but no luck.

My answer would be the impact of dominant football culture that you mention.

In the 1890's association football hadn't become the ubiquitous behemoth that it became in the second half of the twentieth century. Different areas of the country had different dominant codes of football.

In what is now the M62 corridor, rugby was the preeminent code, in the north east, association football was. Both of these areas had large working class populations which played and supported the two codes.

Because of the association football culture amongst the NE working class, rugby had not developed into a mass spectator sport like it was in a band across Yorks and Lancs. So in the NE rugby remained the preserve of the middle classes - the private school educated owners of the ship yards and mines.

As there was no large following of rugby as a spectator sport in the NE and those involved weren't worried about broken time payments, they had no reason to join with the Yorks and Lancs clubs and stuck with the RFU as small players members clubs.

[Sports Prophet]

My guess is it will be related to the idea of broken time payments and boot money. I don’t know how prevalent these models were among Newcastle Rugby teams in that era, but that would be my first guess.

A very quick google search did not help me in trying to ascertain if there was a relationship between the pit owners and the respective local clubs.

With a hunch, I would guess those clubs in Newcastle and surrounds were upholding the amateur ethos of the time and they were not threatening the southern hierarchy with regular loses against the coal faced, working class man.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[iffleyox]

7 hours ago, EggFace said:

I don't understand how Hartlepool never went over to Northern Union with it's number of Union clubs in a area with a small population that resembles some area's in League heartland but also South Wales.

Before the Falcons we had Gosforth Rugby Union and the County game and they had a ground that also had Greyhound Racing ( sound's familer) in a area which in my eyes is far more posher then say Jesmond.

Funny enough I'm working in Gosforth tomorrow.

I think Hartlepool probably didn’t need to - they had their own fierce knit RU rivalry between West Hartlepool and Hartlepool Rovers - the gates/‘programme sales’ of which arguably held back Hartlepools Utd from election to the football league until the 1920s (ish?).

In sporting terms Hartlepool looked a lot more like Gloucester, an RU dominant town. Some may recall West Hartlepool being the North East’s leading RU side in the 1980s, but Rovers were historically the dominant force in the Durham area, providing at least one RFU president and being the ground that the All Blacks became the NZ nickname at.

Essentially Hartlepool had a combination of being very establishment, fierce local rivalries, and probably just far enough away from what’s now the M62 to mean they would really have to have wanted to break away to do so. Worth noting that most of the other sporadic breakaways outside the heartlands were because of local circumstance - eg Coventry had a massive falling out with the RFU over illegal payments and set up an NU side but really it withered because it was such an outpost that there was no surrounding RL ecosystem to sustain it. Ditto Plymouth. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by iffleyox

[iffleyox]

7 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

My answer would be the impact of dominant football culture that you mention.

In the 1890's association football hadn't become the ubiquitous behemoth that it became in the second half of the twentieth century. Different areas of the country had different dominant codes of football.

In what is now the M62 corridor, rugby was the preeminent code, in the north east, association football was. Both of these areas had large working class populations which played and supported the two codes.

Because of the association football culture amongst the NE working class, rugby had not developed into a mass spectator sport like it was in a band across Yorks and Lancs. So in the NE rugby remained the preserve of the middle classes - the private school educated owners of the ship yards and mines.

As there was no large following of rugby as a spectator sport in the NE and those involved weren't worried about broken time payments, they had no reason to join with the Yorks and Lancs clubs and stuck with the RFU as small players members clubs.

Agree with this, although as said Hartlepool’s probably the exception here that proves the rule. It just held out against the NE football culture for a couple of decades longer.

[Coastal_Geordie]

7 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

My answer would be the impact of dominant football culture that you mention.

In the 1890's association football hadn't become the ubiquitous behemoth that it became in the second half of the twentieth century. Different areas of the country had different dominant codes of football.

In what is now the M62 corridor, rugby was the preeminent code, in the north east, association football was. Both of these areas had large working class populations which played and supported the two codes.

Because of the association football culture amongst the NE working class, rugby had not developed into a mass spectator sport like it was in a band across Yorks and Lancs. So in the NE rugby remained the preserve of the middle classes - the private school educated owners of the ship yards and mines.

As there was no large following of rugby as a spectator sport in the NE and those involved weren't worried about broken time payments, they had no reason to join with the Yorks and Lancs clubs and stuck with the RFU as small players members clubs.

That’s likely.  When I look at the amateur Union clubs with a foothold they are more commonly in the more middle class areas Gosforth, Morpeth, Alnwick, Tynemouth rather than the likes of Ashington, Byker, Walker, Benwell etc. - generally.

[Coastal_Geordie]

8 hours ago, Futtocks said:

Newcastle RU's period of success was pretty recent and looks like it isn't lasting too well. Sir John Hall (who bankrolled Newcastle United at the same time) pumped money into RU, Ice Hockey and Basketball in the city, striving for a multi-sport club culture like Barcelona. Prior to that, the Newcastle Gosforth RU club were second division at best.

That part of the country has always been a hotbed of Football and Athletics (particularly long/middle distance running).

Why Rugby League didn't make inroads - I suspect the usual myopia and mistrust of the new that has characterised the majority of our sport's history.

And at that time the Jonny Wilkinson Falcons were regularly getting over 10k attendance, often over 15k.  Now they scrape 5k even at Premiership level.  You can see why the Thunder have struggled to get 1k for lower league.

[Coastal_Geordie]

7 hours ago, EggFace said:

I don't understand how Hartlepool never went over to Northern Union with it's number of Union clubs in a area with a small population that resembles some area's in League heartland but also South Wales.

Before the Falcons we had Gosforth Rugby Union and the County game and they had a ground that also had Greyhound Racing ( sound's familer) in a area which in my eyes is far more posher then say Jesmond.

Funny enough I'm working in Gosforth tomorrow.

Going very off topic - there used to be 2x competing greyhound tracks in Newcastle.  The Byker one eventually put the Gosforth one out of business.

[The Masked Poster]

7 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

My answer would be the impact of dominant football culture that you mention.

In the 1890's association football hadn't become the ubiquitous behemoth that it became in the second half of the twentieth century. Different areas of the country had different dominant codes of football.

In what is now the M62 corridor, rugby was the preeminent code, in the north east, association football was. Both of these areas had large working class populations which played and supported the two codes.

Because of the association football culture amongst the NE working class, rugby had not developed into a mass spectator sport like it was in a band across Yorks and Lancs. So in the NE rugby remained the preserve of the middle classes - the private school educated owners of the ship yards and mines.

As there was no large following of rugby as a spectator sport in the NE and those involved weren't worried about broken time payments, they had no reason to join with the Yorks and Lancs clubs and stuck with the RFU as small players members clubs.

Correct. But add to that, at one point Rugby was the dominant code in places like Liverpool and Manchester and Barnsley, which obviously went on to become association football places but at one point it wasn’t just the usual suspects that were Rugby areas. 

The attitude from the RFU was essentially that if they couldn’t afford to play rugger, then let them go to soccer - which they did. And rugby never got that dominance back.

Edit: Just to add that (as I’m sure many on here know anyway) the generic term for all the games was ‘Football’ anyway. With Association winning the popularity it became the byword for football in most of the world. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by The Masked Poster

[The Masked Poster]

8 hours ago, EggFace said:

I don't understand how Hartlepool never went over to Northern Union with it's number of Union clubs in a area with a small population that resembles some area's in League heartland but also South Wales.

Before the Falcons we had Gosforth Rugby Union and the County game and they had a ground that also had Greyhound Racing ( sound's familer) in a area which in my eyes is far more posher then say Jesmond.

Funny enough I'm working in Gosforth tomorrow.

I’ll be honest, I know that’s highlights, but that’s pretty good I thought. 

[bamfordsbeans]

One of the biggest mysteries to me is why the boundaries of the game stopped at Wakefield in the east(Hull excepted) and didn't spread to North Lancs in the west.

Areas like Barnsley,Burnley,Blackburn etc are only a few miles from our so called heartlands yet have had virtually no exposure to the professional game.

Whilst soccer was obviously dominant in these areas you would have at least thought league would be the rugby of choice.

[Barley Mow]

29 minutes ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

Going very off topic - there used to be 2x competing greyhound tracks in Newcastle.  The Byker one eventually put the Gosforth one out of business.

Not as off topic as you might think. Brough Park greyhound stadium in Byker was home to the original Newcastle RLFC in the 1930s

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_RLFC

[The Masked Poster]

4 minutes ago, bamfordsbeans said:

One of the biggest mysteries to me is why the boundaries of the game stopped at Wakefield in the east(Hull excepted) and didn't spread to North Lancs in the west.

Areas like Barnsley,Burnley,Blackburn etc are only a few miles from our so called heartlands yet have had virtually no exposure to the professional game.

Whilst soccer was obviously dominant in these areas you would have at least thought league would be the rugby of choice.

Check out Tony Collins podcasts (Rugby Reloaded?) He tends to have the answers to those sort of questions. 

[Andy JG]

1 hour ago, bamfordsbeans said:

One of the biggest mysteries to me is why the boundaries of the game stopped at Wakefield in the east(Hull excepted) and didn't spread to North Lancs in the west.

Areas like Barnsley,Burnley,Blackburn etc are only a few miles from our so called heartlands yet have had virtually no exposure to the professional game.

Whilst soccer was obviously dominant in these areas you would have at least thought league would be the rugby of choice.

Bolton has always puzzled me as to why it's not a Rugby League town... just a few miles from both Leigh and Wigan

[iffleyox]

18 minutes ago, Andy JG said:

Bolton has always puzzled me as to why it's not a Rugby League town... just a few miles from both Leigh and Wigan

Bolton Wanderers were founder members of the football league, FA cup finalists in 1894, and consistently a top club in the 1890s and 1900s.

Bolton was lost to association football very early on, and such middle classes as there were wanted to play RU. The mass audience had voted with its feet. 

Basically, you needed a really specific set of circumstances to form an RL side, because the default was either to be playing RU, or not to be playing rugby in the first place

• a town with maybe more than one RU club, but someone was paying players to put them on the rugby/sporting map (it was always as much about the committees as the players however much the injustice of the refusal to pay broken time has become a resounding 'thing' since 1895) 
• local rivalries with teams who were also changing over to league 
• a critical mass of players who were prepared to leave the RFU

You really needed any two of those three, and ideally all three, otherwise it was easier to stay with the RFU.

Edited November 14, 2023 by iffleyox

[Moomintroll]

2 hours ago, The Masked Poster said:

Correct. But add to that, at one point Rugby was the dominant code in places like Liverpool and Manchester and Barnsley, which obviously went on to become association football places but at one point it wasn’t just the usual suspects that were Rugby areas. 

The attitude from the RFU was essentially that if they couldn’t afford to play rugger, then let them go to soccer - which they did. And rugby never got that dominance back.

Edit: Just to add that (as I’m sure many on here know anyway) the generic term for all the games was ‘Football’ anyway. With Association winning the popularity it became the byword for football in most of the world. 

Barnsley is an interesting case as they once had a couple of strong(ish) rugby clubs pre-schism. They had such a reputation for rough play that no-one wanted to play against them, and they disappeared shortly after. Barnsley being so close to footballing hotbed Sheffield didn't help either.

[Damien]

10 hours ago, EggFace said:

I don't understand how Hartlepool never went over to Northern Union with it's number of Union clubs in a area with a small population that resembles some area's in League heartland but also South Wales.

Before the Falcons we had Gosforth Rugby Union and the County game and they had a ground that also had Greyhound Racing ( sound's familer) in a area which in my eyes is far more posher then say Jesmond.

Funny enough I'm working in Gosforth tomorrow.

When looking at this I came across this essay on RU in the North East, and discusses the Northern Union and that touches on Hartlepool. This may also help a lot of your questions @Coastal_Geordie too:

https://insight.cumbria.ac.uk/id/eprint/6656/1/Huggins_PrinciplesPragmatismAnd.pdf

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

That’s likely.  When I look at the amateur Union clubs with a foothold they are more commonly in the more middle class areas Gosforth, Morpeth, Alnwick, Tynemouth rather than the likes of Ashington, Byker, Walker, Benwell etc. - generally.

The Byker Groves would be a great name for a RL team. 

[Hopping Mad]

11 hours ago, EggFace said:

I don't understand how Hartlepool never went over to Northern Union with it's number of Union clubs in a area with a small population that resembles some area's in League heartland but also South Wales.

Before the Falcons we had Gosforth Rugby Union and the County game and they had a ground that also had Greyhound Racing ( sound's familer) in a area which in my eyes is far more posher then say Jesmond.

Funny enough I'm working in Gosforth tomorrow.

Welshmen who built Hartlepool docks brought rugby union to the town. Probably not much chance of switching to the Northern Union.

[iffleyox]

35 minutes ago, Damien said:

When looking at this I came across this essay on RU in the North East, and discusses the Northern Union and that touches on Hartlepool. This may also help a lot of your questions @Coastal_Geordie too:

https://insight.cumbria.ac.uk/id/eprint/6656/1/Huggins_PrinciplesPragmatismAnd.pdf

Great find - and relieved to see from a quick scan of the 56 mentions of Hartlepool that it doesn't disagree with what I wrote!

[Trojan]

The germ of the Northern Union was in the Yorkshire Senior Competition, which was a league comp. allowed by the Yorkshire RU on the condition that once it was established, there would be P&R for other Yorkshire clubs, when the time came the Senior comp renegued on the deal.  Top Lancashire sides were having trouble with the Lancs RU over paying players and transfers.  The two sets of clubs had been meeting for some time with a breakaway in view.   When it became obvious that the two Unions would not accede to what the top clubs required, they formally broke away.  The RFU put up awesome barriers to other clubs joining the NU and scared them off.  There was a move in South Wales where the culture was similar to industrial Yorks and Lancs, but those in charge could see that Wales would lose its international status and become just another "county" like the other two, plus clubs like Cardiff would lose money spinning fixtures against the likes of Bristol and Gloucester so they carried on as before.  As Tony Collins said, they pretended not to be paying the top players and Twickenham pretended to believe them.

I'm sure if there had been any enthusiasm in North East England that the NU would have welcomed them with open arms.  Clearly there wasn't. And as has been stated above soccer was making great inroads in the North East, and West Yorkshire.   Leeds City (forerunners of United) Bradford City, Bradford and Huddersfield all trace their founding to within 10 years of 1895.

 

[Hopping Mad]

2 hours ago, Andy JG said:

Bolton has always puzzled me as to why it's not a Rugby League town... just a few miles from both Leigh and Wigan

Historically, no lack of rugby league interest in Bolton. In his classic book 'At the George', writer Geoffrey Moorhouse recounts the first time, in 1946, he caught the bus from Bolton to watch a rugby league match at Central Park, Wigan: "Before we reached the terminus near Wigan's market-hall, everybody heading for the match got off that bus, which meant that it was virtually empty over its last half-mile. I remember being surprised ... at the number who had been aboard since we set off. I hadn't realised so many Boltononians had a weakness for Rugby League."

Edited November 14, 2023 by Hopping Mad