Rob Burrow Award - no more Harry Sunderland Trophy

[Chrispmartha]

21 minutes ago, Padge said:

Oooohhh do tell, people have been searching for this evidence for years.

My original point was a question not a statement  

[Padge]

27 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Just something I learned recently about him and Roy Francis

And this was your second point indicating you must have learned this from somewhere, I presume a reliable source with evidence, please do share.

 

[Chrispmartha]

9 minutes ago, Padge said:

And this was your second point indicating you must have learned this from somewhere, I presume a reliable source with evidence, please do share.

 

I'm sure the sources are the same as everyone else has seen/heard, but Ive only heard them recently.

[Padge]

12 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

I'm sure the sources are the same as everyone else has seen/heard, but Ive only heard them recently.

Nobody has found any sources, as far as I know, so if you believe what you have 'learned' you must have checked the source. I am just asking for you to share it as it will help all of us who have been researching this.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Padge said:

Nobody has found any sources, as far as I know, so if you believe what you have 'learned' you must have checked the source. I am just asking for you to share it as it will help all of us who have been researching this.

It's this, isn't it?

We've covered it on here before, several times.

[Padge]

12 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's this, isn't it?

We've covered it on here before, several times.

I know it has, and it never gets resolved

Even that when it was looked into was not on firm ground, I think because of the wording.

Edited February 8 by Padge

[RigbyLuger]

Trevor Hunt sums it up perfectly.

 

 

 

 

[Martyn Sadler]

19 hours ago, Chrispmartha said:

Wasn’t he also a little bit racist?

If he had been, I'm not sure he would have been nominated by his fellow journalists after his death for a trophy to be named in his honour.

The racism allegation is based solely on hearsay - a comment made by Roy Francis to Robert Gate many years after Sunderland's death.

A complete archive of Sunderland's writing is held at the University of New South Wales. In correspondence I had with the Professor responsible for the preservation of the archive, he made the point that there was no indication of racism in anything that Sunderland had ever written, but that there was a lot of racism about in Australia in the pre-war period, so he didn't rule it out completely. Nonetheless, it would be surprising, if Sunderland had been a racist, that he would have involved himself in Rugby League, which was known for having significant Indigenous participation in the 1920s.

He was clearly a complex character who could easily antagonise people but his contribution to Rugby League is hard to argue with and shouldn't be traduced on the basis of hearsay when he was unable to respond to the allegation.

https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/sunderland-harry-11803

[Damien]

32 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

If he had been, I'm not sure he would have been nominated by his fellow journalists after his death for a trophy to be named in his honour.

The racism allegation is based solely on hearsay - a comment made by Roy Francis to Robert Gate many years after Sunderland's death.

A complete archive of Sunderland's writing is held at the University of New South Wales. In correspondence I had with the Professor responsible for the preservation of the archive, he made the point that there was no indication of racism in anything that Sunderland had ever written, but that there was a lot of racism about in Australia in the pre-war period, so he didn't rule it out completely. Nonetheless, it would be surprising, if Sunderland had been a racist, that he would have involved himself in Rugby League, which was known for having significant Indigenous participation in the 1920s.

He was clearly a complex character who could easily antagonise people but his contribution to Rugby League is hard to argue with and shouldn't be traduced on the basis of hearsay when he was unable to respond to the allegation.

https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/sunderland-harry-11803

Times were very different 60 years ago. There's an awful lot decades later than that which wouldn't be acceptable now.

Indigenous participation in RL in a 1920s white dominated Australia has absolutely no relevance to Sunderland's views. It would be very naive to think that RL somehow lived in a bubble and the only people involved were non-racist.

[RigbyLuger]

46 minutes ago, Damien said:

Times were very different 60 years ago. There's an awful lot decades later than that which wouldn't be acceptable now.

Indigenous participation in RL in a 1920s white dominated Australia has absolutely no relevance to Sunderland's views. It would be very naive to think that RL somehow lived in a bubble and the only people involved were non-racist.

I think you're spot on to say times change. Look at the way women are portrayed in cartoons from big match programmes in the late 80s for example. You wouldn't have comically large chests with men perving on them now.

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The racism allegation is based solely on hearsay - a comment made by Roy Francis to Robert Gate many years after Sunderland's death.

I'm not sure a direct, first-hand witness account is hearsay. We can evaluate it, and choose to believe Roy Francis or not, but it's evidence nonetheless. I've no reason to not believe Francis, and so choose to. 

[Martyn Sadler]

51 minutes ago, Worzel said:

I'm not sure a direct, first-hand witness account is hearsay. We can evaluate it, and choose to believe Roy Francis or not, but it's evidence nonetheless. I've no reason to not believe Francis, and so choose to. 

Hearsay is evidence based on what has been reported to a witness by others rather than what he or she has observed or experienced.

Clearly the comment apparently made to Robert Gate by Roy Francis accords with that definition, in that we are relying on someone's interpretation of a conversation long ago.

It may be true, but if so it would tend to be corroborated by other circumstantial evidence, of which none exists, as I have tried to point out.

So you may believe it, but that doesn't make it true.

Having said all that - and I think we've exhausted this conversation - I am very happy to see Rob Burrow's name being attached to the MoM award for the Grand Final.

I simply wish that this change had been handled in a better way.

[gingerjon]

29 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I simply wish that this change had been handled in a better way.

They've handled it in the best way possible by not Streisand-effecting the credible accusation of racism when making the change.

[Padge]

Strange photo to set up if you don't want to associate with 'them'.

 

 

[Padge]

Maybe Sunderland didn't get on with the Welsh, Emlyn Jenkins a stand-off who Wigan signed from Salford had only played 18 games for Wigan (Francis 12) when he decided to retire, at the age of 27, following Sunderland's arrival, though he did sign for Keighley a month later.

Jenkins was a former Cardiff player from Treherbert in the Rhonda.

[StandOffHalf]

I love Rob. He is one of the most inspirational people around.

I don't think you name a trophy after someone while they are alive. The Harry Sunderland Trophy and the Harry Sunderland Medal for Australia's standout international offer a historical link between hemispheres, in celebrating and remembering a great administrator. I think this is a move that sweeps away history, with what looks like a carelessness to me.

I am against this. I don't think you withdraw a long-standing award in this fashion.

[StandOffHalf]

On 08/02/2024 at 09:55, Martyn Sadler said:

He had three sons, two of whom died before their first birthday.

But the other, Sir Sydney Sunderland, achieved worldwide acclaim and great eminence in his field - far greater than Harry's - and died in 1993. He was the youngest ever professor appointed at the University of Melbourne and he pioneered research into the structure of nerves. He was often referred to as “the father of modern nerve surgery.” The Sunderland Society, based in America, celebrates his memory and holds regular meetings and symposia in his honour. Harry named his son after his favourite city.

After Harry's death, Sydney gave his approval to the RLWA's proposal to honour his father and I would have thought it appropriate to consult his descendants about the decision to discontinue having his name attached to the award.

For all I know, they might have done that, but if they had, I suspect they would have made reference to it in the press release.

It would just have looked a bit classier, especially given the coincidence that Harry's son was a pioneer in research in a field related to the condition that Rob suffers from.

Well said, Mr. Sadler.

[Martyn Sadler]

4 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

I love Rob. He is one of the most inspirational people around.

I don't think you name a trophy after someone while they are alive. The Harry Sunderland Trophy and the Harry Sunderland Medal for Australia's standout international offer a historical link between hemispheres, in celebrating and remembering a great administrator. I think this is a move that sweeps away history, with what looks like a carelessness to me.

I am against this. I don't think you withdraw a long-standing award in this fashion.

I agree with this point of view and I'm surprised that Tony Collins, a sports historian who I have great respect for, doesn't also appear to recognise this point, instead leading the campaign to remove Sunderland's name from the trophy.

I should finally add that when it comes to having names on trophies, Sunderland was in fact much more deserving than Lance Todd in terms of his achievements in Rugby League.

And in saying that I am not proposing the re-naming of the Lance Todd Trophy.

In the same vein, I was also glad to see Neil Fox recognised recently when Wakefield named their new stand in his honour.

But I would have thought that a player who scored more points than anyone else over a long career would have been worthy of a major award within the game as a whole.

[Padge]

I must confess to playing a bit of devil's advocate here.

I went to a talk by Tony Collins a couple of years ago about this very subject, and a follow up about racism in RL in which this subject was obviously a large part. He has done a large amount of research into the Sunderland, Francis relationship, which he was due to publish in a book about Roy Francis. Unfortunately the book has been delayed, he was waiting for the latest census data to be released so he could do more background research, and the last I heard it had thrown up some complexities around Roy Francis' early years (the book is more than just about a few years at Wigan).

Tony had a really convincing case, but, there is as always a but, it would probably pass in a civil court but maybe fail in a criminal court, and as has been shown here the counter arguments are not difficult to construct.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Padge said:

I must confess to playing a bit of devil's advocate here.

I went to a talk by Tony Collins a couple of years ago about this very subject, and a follow up about racism in RL in which this subject was obviously a large part. He has done a large amount of research into the Sunderland, Francis relationship, which he was due to publish in a book about Roy Francis. Unfortunately the book has been delayed, he was waiting for the latest census data to be released so he could do more background research, and the last I heard it had thrown up some complexities around Roy Francis' early years (the book is more than just about a few years at Wigan).

Tony had a really convincing case, but, there is as always a but, it would probably pass in a civil court but maybe fail in a criminal court, and as has been shown here the counter arguments are not difficult to construct.

So balance of probabilities yes, beyond all reasonable doubt no.

I'm glad its the Rob Burrow Award now.

[Dave T]

I think I made the point last time we discussed this, we only have a limited amount of awards like this, I wonder whether an approach of naming them for a period of 5 years or similar could work. It allows for us to honour a lot more of our history, create some stories, include families etc. honour young and old. 

By just doing things like this and the Man of Steel naming with no real process can jar a little. 

And without being insensitive, I don't think I'm a big fan of doing things like this which are primarily led by people becoming ill. 

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think I made the point last time we discussed this, we only have a limited amount of awards like this, I wonder whether an approach of naming them for a period of 5 years or similar could work. It allows for us to honour a lot more of our history, create some stories, include families etc. honour young and old. 

By just doing things like this and the Man of Steel naming with no real process can jar a little. 

And without being insensitive, I don't think I'm a big fan of doing things like this which are primarily led by people becoming ill. 

I said this on page 1 but said 10 years. For me a fixed period removes all the issues people raise and there is a fixed process that everyone understands. There can be no offence when an award is renamed as that is the process. There will always be disagreements about if people are worthy or not but rotation is a good solution and compromise I feel. 

On your second paragraph I completely agree too. That has been the main driver behind 2 awards being renamed now and that isn't the right approach to me.

[Tommygilf]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

And without being insensitive, I don't think I'm a big fan of doing things like this which are primarily led by people becoming ill. 

I don't think this is, primarily, led by that.

The Sunderland Award keeps coming up every year or so in the game's self reflection and is an awkward fit. It's there because nobody has changed it despite it being suggested for going on a decade or more now, the new Respect Campaign has just been launched too. I think there is far more stock in this aspect than Burrow being ill.

Likewise, even before he was diagnosed, Burrow was given by many as an example of who the award could be renamed after. The most iconic grand final try, a 2 times winner, and as a symbol of what RL is; he works whether he is here or not, ill or otherwise.

I think RL Commercial have taken stock of the game, they want to get rid of any grey clouds they can as easily as they can and don't want to do it publicly or in a drawn out way picking fights. Its an easy move, they've done it.

[StandOffHalf]

I am in favour of adding to what we have, but I don't like tearing down history.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't think this is, primarily, led by that.

The Sunderland Award keeps coming up every year or so in the game's self reflection and is an awkward fit. It's there because nobody has changed it despite it being suggested for going on a decade or more now, the new Respect Campaign has just been launched too. I think there is far more stock in this aspect than Burrow being ill.

Likewise, even before he was diagnosed, Burrow was given by many as an example of who the award could be renamed after. The most iconic grand final try, a 2 times winner, and as a symbol of what RL is; he works whether he is here or not, ill or otherwise.

I think RL Commercial have taken stock of the game, they want to get rid of any grey clouds they can as easily as they can and don't want to do it publicly or in a drawn out way picking fights. Its an easy move, they've done it.

Course it is led by that. There is not a chance it would be happening otherwise.

You even said yourself on the last page that there was a very sad impetus to doing this now rather than waiting 9 months.