Fri 24th May: SL: St Helens v Leeds Rhinos KO 20:00 (Sky)

[Damien]

I think there has to be serious question marks over Smith.  I know the board will be reluctant to make another change but its hard to continue when you've lost the fans to such an extent and are performing like that. 

Edited May 25 by Damien

[Fly-By-TheWire]

I’ve never got the hype over Smith.   The narrative seems to always be that he’s a genius waiting to be unleashed, and it’s just the wrong players under him that’s the problem.   I’m surprised Leeds have persisted this long with a failed experiment.

[JohnM]

Smith will have a long wait.  I'm also a genius waiting to be unleashed and after only 78 years, I'm still waiting....

Edited May 25 by JohnM

[Chrispmartha]

27 minutes ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

I’ve never got the hype over Smith.   The narrative seems to always be that he’s a genius waiting to be unleashed, and it’s just the wrong players under him that’s the problem.   I’m surprised Leeds have persisted this long with a failed experiment.

In fairness what he did to the side in 2022 was pretty impressive, it probably stems from that.

I like Smith as i like people who look at things a bit differently, if we all thought and did the same nothing would change or move forward.

I just think its becoming clear he’s not a good fit at Leeds anymore or even SL.

[Tommygilf]

33 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think there has to be serious question marks over Smith.  I know the board will be reluctant to make another change but its hard to continue when you've lost the fans to such an extent and are performing like that. 

I think the fans are gone, and from the highlights and comments alone about last night, it looks like the dressing room is going too.

I wonder if anyone in that dressing room has enough of a spine to bypass the coach to the chairman though - and even then, the club have binned off seemingly plenty of players who have disagreed with the coach over the past 2 years. Ironically for a coach so intent on creating a "leadership group", there feels to be absolutely zero leadership on the field at all.

I worry Hetherington will only move when we either mathematically can't make the playoffs or Season Ticket renewals come about - both will be too late for this season, and will arguably leave us scrambling to an extent for next year too.

[Damien]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

I think the fans are gone, and from the highlights and comments alone about last night, it looks like the dressing room is going too.

I wonder if anyone in that dressing room has enough of a spine to bypass the coach to the chairman though - and even then, the club have binned off seemingly plenty of players who have disagreed with the coach over the past 2 years. Ironically for a coach so intent on creating a "leadership group", there feels to be absolutely zero leadership on the field at all.

I worry Hetherington will only move when we either mathematically can't make the playoffs or Season Ticket renewals come about - both will be too late for this season, and will arguably leave us scrambling to an extent for next year too.

Have Leeds even got any players to do that? Just off the top of my head I can't think of any experienced, strong Leeds clubman type players who would be in a position to do that. Maybe that's one of the problems in itself.

[Tommygilf]

30 minutes ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

I’ve never got the hype over Smith.   The narrative seems to always be that he’s a genius waiting to be unleashed, and it’s just the wrong players under him that’s the problem.   I’m surprised Leeds have persisted this long with a failed experiment.

The only problems at Leeds he has ever, overtly at least, "solved" were one's he created himself in his first pre-season.

The tail end of that first part season in charge looks like the exception that proves the rule. 

I also really don't like the way the club has gone on a doom spiral about itself saying it is a huge challenge - the academy is rubbish, the training is rubbish, the contracts are terrible etc, just to justify Smith's results. We've made it actively harder to extricate ourselves from him or to find a replacement

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Damien said:

Have Leeds even got any players to do that? Just off the top of my head I can't think of any experienced, strong Leeds clubman type players who would be in a position to do that. Maybe that's one of the problems in itself.

Club captain chosen by the players, Kruise Leeming, sidelined and gone. 

Mouthy player clearly willing to talk up to the coach like Austin, gone.

Zak Hardaker or Richie Myler, both gone

Cam Smith is Rohan Smith's man - and on the field at least seems to have no leadership skills like the club has been used to.

Ash Handley is another one who comes across as a nice lad but ultimately a bit of a wetwipe in terms of leadership.

Our props, indeed most of our pack feels anonymous at the club - and the rest of the squad are children or new recruits.

Rhyse Martin is probably the most capable but he must be aware that his position at the club is far from secure.

Its the exact opposite of the era with Sinfield, McGuire, Burrow, Peacock, Leuleuai, Delaney, etc - leaders all over the park.

[Josef K]

I don’t do Facebook/Twitter or any other RL site but i was wondering if leeds fans want Smith gone on them ?. They started off really well when they moved the ball out wide, then the great kick across to Ash Handley. They also defended well in the first half, but when they let Sironen offload the ball to Clark to score 5mins into the second half their heads seem to drop. 

[Chrispmartha]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think the fans are gone, and from the highlights and comments alone about last night, it looks like the dressing room is going too.

I wonder if anyone in that dressing room has enough of a spine to bypass the coach to the chairman though - and even then, the club have binned off seemingly plenty of players who have disagreed with the coach over the past 2 years. Ironically for a coach so intent on creating a "leadership group", there feels to be absolutely zero leadership on the field at all.

I worry Hetherington will only move when we either mathematically can't make the playoffs or Season Ticket renewals come about - both will be too late for this season, and will arguably leave us scrambling to an extent for next year too.

Caddick might have a say in it all and hes the one with the cash

[DoubleD]

19 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think there has to be serious question marks over Smith.  I know the board will be reluctant to make another change but its hard to continue when you've lost the fans to such an extent and are performing like that. 

Smith doesn’t help himself in that’s he’s not very personable so fans don’t warm to him.

Other than the strange tactic of giving up territory, I think Smith’s tactics and coaching are actually pretty good. Our goal line defence is excellent. The short goal line drop outs are often a good idea but we seem to execute them really poorly. 

Any team with 4 new players in the spine will suffer inconsistency and struggle for rhythm in attack

Injuries haven’t helped. If Gannon, Holroyd, Fusitua had remained fit then performances would’ve have been better.

However, recruitment is the biggest issue. Too many ordinary players in the squad. I know there were salary cap issues when he first joined but he’s had a couple of years to get his players in and I’ve been really unimpressed. Even Croft and Ackers were opportunistic signings and they’ve both underwhelmed. 

I wonder if Smiths lack of top level coaching is the issue, in that he’s recruiting players at a level he’s worked at but his identification of top level talent isn’t great because he’s not worked with elite players. 

If this responsibility is primarily Smith’s then for me it’s not working and I would make a change now. It will take a few years to get back on track though because the roster is a mish mash of a mess. Clubs need stable rosters (particularly in the spine) and proper succession plans to maintain consistency 

[Gooleboy]

43 minutes ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

I’ve never got the hype over Smith.   The narrative seems to always be that he’s a genius waiting to be unleashed, and it’s just the wrong players under him that’s the problem.   I’m surprised Leeds have persisted this long with a failed experiment.

He didn't break any pots in the Championship with Bradford. I was gobsmacked when Leeds set him on.

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, Josef K said:

I don’t do Facebook/Twitter or any other RL site but i was wondering if leeds fans want Smith gone on them ?. They started off really well when they moved the ball out wide, then the great kick across to Ash Handley. They also defended well in the first half, but when they let Sironen offload the ball to Clark to score 5mins into the second half their heads seem to drop. 

There’s some Leeds fans and they tend to be the most vocal that didn’t want him in the first place and i don’t think they’ve changed from that

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, DoubleD said:

Smith doesn’t help himself in that’s he’s not very personable so fans don’t warm to him.

Other than the strange tactic of giving up territory, I think Smith’s tactics and coaching are actually pretty good. Our goal line defence is excellent. The short goal line drop outs are often a good idea but we seem to execute them really poorly. 

Any team with 4 new players in the spine will suffer inconsistency and struggle for rhythm in attack

Injuries haven’t helped. If Gannon, Holroyd, Fusitua had remained fit then performances would’ve have been better.

However, recruitment is the biggest issue. Too many ordinary players in the squad. I know there were salary cap issues when he first joined but he’s had a couple of years to get his players in and I’ve been really unimpressed. Even Croft and Ackers were opportunistic signings and they’ve both underwhelmed. 

I wonder if Smiths lack of top level coaching is the issue, in that he’s recruiting players at a level he’s worked at but his identification of top level talent isn’t great because he’s not worked with elite players. 

If this responsibility is primarily Smith’s then for me it’s not working and I would make a change now. It will take a few years to get back on track though because the roster is a mish mash of a mess. Clubs need stable rosters (particularly in the spine) and proper succession plans to maintain consistency 

Smiths public persona is not what he’s really like though to be fair.

its also unfair to say he hasn’t worked with Elite players he’s been in and around NRL clubs for most of his career.

[M j M]

2 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Caddick might have a say in it all and hes the one with the cash

Caddick rarely if ever gets involved in decision making other than to rubber stamp recommendations from the football side. So it will still probably be Hetherington's decision.

My view, much as I would hate for the club to pander to the moron section of its fanbase, is that it's getting close to unsustainable.

[Chrispmartha]

3 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

He didn't break any pots in the Championship with Bradford. I was gobsmacked when Leeds set him on.

Bradford were an absolute basket case though to be fair

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, M j M said:

Caddick rarely if ever gets involved in decision making other than to rubber stamp recommendations from the football side. So it will still probably be Hetherington's decision.

My view, much as I would hate for the club to pander to the moron section of its fanbase, is that it's getting close to unsustainable.

I agree with your last point 100%

[Gooleboy]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

Bradford were an absolute basket case though to be fair

Maybe so, but clubs might have been taken in by the fact that he is Brian Smith's son. Who, despite a lot of top jobs and a few finals, never won anything.

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Club captain chosen by the players, Kruise Leeming, sidelined and gone. 

Mouthy player clearly willing to talk up to the coach like Austin, gone.

Zak Hardaker or Richie Myler, both gone

Cam Smith is Rohan Smith's man - and on the field at least seems to have no leadership skills like the club has been used to.

Ash Handley is another one who comes across as a nice lad but ultimately a bit of a wetwipe in terms of leadership.

Our props, indeed most of our pack feels anonymous at the club - and the rest of the squad are children or new recruits.

Rhyse Martin is probably the most capable but he must be aware that his position at the club is far from secure.

Its the exact opposite of the era with Sinfield, McGuire, Burrow, Peacock, Leuleuai, Delaney, etc - leaders all over the park.

That's pretty much what I thought.

[M j M]

9 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Maybe so, but clubs might have been taken in by the fact that he is Brian Smith's son. Who, despite a lot of top jobs and a few finals, never won anything.

Let's not rewrite history, Rohan Smith's record in Australia, albeit at a lower level than NRL, was very good indeed.

[NRLandSL]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

It was. Some absolutely outstanding cut out passes. He is a quality player.

What about Frawley though? You were arguing with people, I certainly remember @DoubleD and myself, that he was a fantastic player and that he would dominate Super League. Anyone that disagreed with you knew nothing about Rugby. Instead he's looked every bit the average journeyman that others said he was.

Nothing gets past you does it mate . I remember you trashing Frawley and calling him a horrible signing. I defended in regards to recent form for Canberra. I was wrong though maybe he was a poor signing.  
I seem to remember you saying only a few weeks ago Welsby was hardly a top 15 FB in the world though no?

Edit- Sorry mate got the wrong person, that was Harry Stottle

Edited May 25 by NRLandSL

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

Nothing gets past you does it mate . I remember you trashing Frawley and calling him a horrible signing. I defended in regards to recent form for Canberra. I was wrong though maybe he was a poor signing.  
I seem to remember you saying only a few weeks ago Welsby was hardly a top 15 FB in the world though no?

Edit- Sorry mate got the wrong person, that was Harry Stottle

Yes you also tried to attribute Canberras form to him, even though all facts proved otherwise and they did far better without him than with him. I didn't even really trash Frawley, just pointing out he wasn't the player you were claiming.

Anyhow I have have always rated Welsby highly and have always praised him on here so that certainly wasn't me.

Edited May 25 by Damien

[NRLandSL]

Just now, Damien said:

Yes you tried to attribute Canberras form to him, even though all facts proved otherwise and they did far better without him than with him.

Anyhow I have have always rated Welsby highly and have always praised him on here so that certainly wasn't me.

He was going really well towards the back end of the year, pushed Wighton out to the centres. Also scored 2 tries including a crucial one in the finals to keep the game alive for Canberra.

Shame he couldn’t keep that form with leeds.

[Chrispmartha]

4 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

He was going really well towards the back end of the year, pushed Wighton out to the centres. Also scored 2 tries including a crucial one in the finals to keep the game alive for Canberra.

Shame he couldn’t keep that form with leeds.

He was however playing stand off though wasn’t he and not the role he’s been given at Leeds, maybe that’s one of the issues.

Frawley actually wasn’t that bad last night, he looks shot of any confidence to me

[Gooleboy]

20 minutes ago, M j M said:

Let's not rewrite history, Rohan Smith's record in Australia, albeit at a lower level than NRL, was very good indeed.

What has Brian Smith ever won?