Sat 8th Jun: Betfred Challenge Cup Final: Warrington Wolves v Wigan Warriors KO 15:00 (BBC)

[JohnM]

It seems this topic has broadened from being about the Cup Final to bring anboutgthe wider issues around it. 

I note that MLB Europe held it's two game London Series this weekend at the London Stadium . From the brief look at the BBC live feed, the ground looked full. Ticket prices started at £33 for kids, £54 for adults, it seems. I think, too, the games were shown on a big screen in Trafalgar Square.

Perhaps now is the time to move our final north after all.  It's gone from an end of season celebration of our sport, to a mid-season special. Just not the same general excitement.

 

 

[JohnM]

14 hours ago, northamptoncougar said:

I genuinely cannot get my head around the fact that the final isn’t sold out every year.

It should be sold as an event, times are hard for some but plenty go watch the other code / boxing / football/ darts etc, if it’s worth going to people will come. 
 

Isn’t this something we’re paying IMG for, they’re in year 2 now and the CC final selling out should be a given.

 

It should be sold out? Genuine question: Why,?

[Damien]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

It seems this topic has broadened from being about the Cup Final to bring anboutgthe wider issues around it. 

I note that MLB Europe held it's two game London Series this weekend at the London Stadium . From the brief look at the BBC live feed, the ground looked full. Ticket prices started at £33 for kids, £54 for adults, it seems. I think, too, the games were shown on a big screen in Trafalgar Square.

Perhaps now is the time to move our final north after all.  It's gone from an end of season celebration of our sport, to a mid-season special. Just not the same general excitement.

I'd love to know what the marketing and promotion spend was to achieve whatever crowd they did and how that compares with the Challenge Cup Final. I know they did full, multi days events in Trafalgar Square etc, which can't have been cheap, and I knew all about it and I am no fan of Baseball. I strongly suspect they spend many, many multiples of what the RFL did on the Challenge Cup. I firmly believe that the lack of investment into the Challenge Cup overall and the gameday/weekend experience has seen it get to the position it now is. 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Damien said:

I'd love to know what the marketing and promotion spend was to achieve whatever crowd they did and how that compares with the Challenge Cup Final. I know they did full, multi days events in Trafalgar Square etc, which can't have been cheap, and I knew all about it and I am no fan of Baseball. I strongly suspect they spend many, many multiples of what the RFL did on the Challenge Cup. I firmly believe that the lack of investment into the Challenge Cup overall and the gameday/weekend experience has seen it get to the position it now is. 

Three day event in Trafalgar Square plus dedicated social media including giving fan accounts and influences access/merch to show off.

And that's before you get to the spending that turns West Ham's ground into something approximating a US baseball park *and* flying out two full squads plus 'taxi' squad players to cover injuries, and their support staff and managers.

[soulboy]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

It seems this topic has broadened from being about the Cup Final to bring anboutgthe wider issues around it. 

I note that MLB Europe held it's two game London Series this weekend at the London Stadium . From the brief look at the BBC live feed, the ground looked full. Ticket prices started at £33 for kids, £54 for adults, it seems. I think, too, the games were shown on a big screen in Trafalgar Square.

Perhaps now is the time to move our final north after all.  It's gone from an end of season celebration of our sport, to a mid-season special. Just not the same general excitement.

 

 

Tell that to all the players that walked out at Wembley on Saturday ( and that includes the school game ) 

Moving it up north is a backwards step . If it does happen , they can shove the sport up its **** .

 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, soulboy said:

Tell that to all the players that walked out at Wembley on Saturday ( and that includes the school game ) 

Moving it up north is a backwards step . If it does happen , they can shove the sport up its **** .

 

I don't think there's a good Northern venue for this match tbh. But I don't think Wembley is good for it either. 

Edited June 10 by Dave T

[JohnM]

9 minutes ago, soulboy said:

Tell that to all the players that walked out at Wembley on Saturday ( and that includes the school game ) 

Moving it up north is a backwards step . If it does happen , they can shove the sport up its **** .

 

I'm not advocating moving it up north. I'm saying "perhaps", looking for cogent, informed and reasoned discussion. 

The CCF used to be the final game of the season, the sports equivalent of the Santiago de Compostela pilgrimage.

Then came the switch to summer rugby and the advent of the Grand Final as the final game of the season, the culmination of a season-long hard slog. 

Inevitability the GF has eclipsed the CCF I don't think you can easily have the season's high point in the middle of the season.

[Lionheart_merged]

The fan zones on Saturday could have been affected by the M6 closure on Saturday morning due to a traffic accident.  Most fans travelling on the day were coming from the North West and vehicles were diverted onto the M1.  Plenty of coaches were delayed.  We arrived around 2pm and entered the ground soon after.

[ELBOWSEYE]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I don't think there's a good Northern venue for this match tbh. But I don't think Wembley is good for it either. 

I enjoyed the day, I can see it means a lot to the participants and clubs and even too the fans of the clubs but we all know the neutral fans are really diluted, I have been all Warrington finals and 2009/2010 all my extended family went (people who never attend normal games). The days out have been diluted with magic, Catalan away and the GF.

[Harry Stottle]

On 09/06/2024 at 11:17, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

It was busier than last year and the atmosphere was louder and better because of the bigger fanbase (who probably have a bigger song repertoire too) 

The thing that stood out for me was the continued and relentless rise of of prices at Wembley .... It's always been expensive but it is getting extraordinary ...£4.50 for a Luke warm bottle of coke....£7.50 a pint......hilarious that people pay it

Last year it was £7.50 a pint for a choice of any 3 Camden Ales, but £21, if 4 pints were purchased together, at £5.25 per pint we thought that was OK for Wembley.

[northamptoncougar]

4 hours ago, JohnM said:

It should be sold out? Genuine question: Why,?

Because it's an historical cup final with 100+ years of heritage and because I honestly believe if the RFL were even half capable it would be.

From a commercial sense the current governing body would not have my confidence to sell water in the Desert, it's the constant same repetition of hit and hope, had Huddersfield got to the final then we'd be looking at sub 60k again.

You make the final an "Event," you add attractions / fan zones / reasons for the neutral to attend an enjoy as well as the die hard fan. You stop fishing in the same depleting pond year after year.

I was sat a table across from Sam Tompkins at half time in Club Wembley, that bloke was one of the best of a generation and a recent England captain it was almost sad that he's sat there like an average Joe in the working mens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, northamptoncougar said:

Because it's an historical cup final with 100+ years of heritage and because I honestly believe if the RFL were even half capable it would be.

From a commercial sense the current governing body would not have my confidence to sell water in the Desert, it's the constant same repetition of hit and hope, had Huddersfield got to the final then we'd be looking at sub 60k again.

You make the final an "Event," you add attractions / fan zones / reasons for the neutral to attend an enjoy as well as the die hard fan. You stop fishing in the same depleting pond year after year.

I was sat a table across from Sam Tompkins at half time in Club Wembley, that bloke was one of the best of a generation and a recent England captain it was almost sad that he's sat there like an average Joe in the working mens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get your point, but what I would say is that there is no real reason why this game should get 90k bums on seats just because Wembley is a 90k capacity. It's 40 years since this game got those kinds of crowds. 

If Wembley was a 65-70k capacity there wouldn't really be any grumbles. 

All that said, we get 64k with absolute incompetence, so it does rather feel like there is growth in this event. 

My gut feel is that there is maybe an opportunity to get this to be a 75k event regularly, but we are some way off that right now. 

[48C North Stand]

Filling Wembley just takes a bit of imaginative marketing skill. The organisers are sadly lacking. 

I would start by offering all in packages that might include travel, accommodation and entry plus discounted links to other events/locations in the area around the same time. Book old fashioned train specials (the old Rugex as BR called them) with a retro locomotive and stock. Overnight stays in local hotels and discount tickets to other attractions on the days either side - Legoland/Thorpe Park/Chessington etc.... 

[up the robins]

It's got to stay at Wembley for me.

The history and significance of the venue means it is every players dream to walk out on that pitch.

Our problem with rugby league is the sheer incompetence of the people in charge of promoting the event.  There is generally no efforts made to promote the game away from the established clubs and even then very little effort into enticing fans from clubs not competing.

Like others have mentioned a proper fan zone where the top players from all  the Super League clubs (compulsory as a prerequisite of entering the competition) are expected to attend for meet and greets also maybe question and answer sessions with some of the sports greats. Merchandise giveaways and competitions. Possible party Village night before with events included to help make it a weekend event. Let's build it into a celebration of our great sport and let the people of London see what we are about let them see how fans of different teams know how to get along and not  need segregation.

Promotion Promotion Promotion 

[JohnM]

This "incompetence" theme is being over-done. Unless people are suggesting that day after day, year after year, decade after decade, the game is being run by incompetent people.  I don't see any geniuses on here stepping up to the plate and taking over, driving the sport to untold levels of popularity

Whist heritage is important, it should not drag us back, either.  Our game has to stand on what it is today and what it can be in future, not what it was in the past. That's a foreign country. When you have kids who think of Churchill merely  as an insurance company, 1895 is lost in the passage of time. It was  Clare Balding who rrearked that too many in rugby league carried chips on their shoulders. She wasn't wrong 

The impact of social changes of the last 30 or so go right across the game and there are now  many activities competing for our time and money. The diaspora of fans because of housing, education, employment and travel infrastructure has had a marked effect.

I went to all of Wigan's victories in the 1980/1990s  great atmosphere queueing for tickets at Central Park, and in the inevitable jams on the M1. Crowds blocking the pavements outside the street corner pubs, meeting old mates at the Harrow Tavern...only for it to have been replaced by flats when we went to the Wigan Vs Sheffield game but that was then, and this is now.

It might be great for the players to get to Wembley but it's not the same Wembley and it's no longer the end-of- season celebration it once was.

I think that is reflected in what might seem to be a half- hearted approach. For the fans if not the clubs and players, it's not the big draw it used to be.

Edited June 10 by JohnM

[Trojan]

The point is that the various clubs and pubs in the "heartlands" started saving and booking for the following year's CC final almost as soon as the previous one was over.  It was an annual jolly.  Load crates of ale into the coach and off we go.  Moving  the date about sort of screwed that.  And the end of winter rugby didn't do the event any favours either.  Look at the Twickenham crowd.  I went to Wembley in 2021 when Saints played Cas.  (I went for Fev v York)  it was hot for the Fev game.  By the time Saints and Cas took the field it was blazing hot and players were dropping like flies due to the heat.

Kick the comp off before the regular season (like the old county cups) don't seed it.  And play a condensed comp aimed at a final in May.  

Whether it should stay at Wembley I couldn't say but I've been twice to the new stadium and haven't been impressed.

I thought the game was ok.  Wigan certainly are a competent effective side.  TBH I don't think Wire were that far behind.  A little more luck and they'd have been breathing down Wigan's necks.  

The Rob Burrow stuff showed our game at its absolute best.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Last year it was £7.50 a pint for a choice of any 3 Camden Ales, but £21, if 4 pints were purchased together, at £5.25 per pint we thought that was OK for Wembley.

I wasn't drinking so I didn't look in detail but £5.25 seems in the ballpark of more normal I suppose

I am glad I wasn't drinking (and didn't bother with a soft drink from the ground either!) 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

This "incompetence" theme is being over-done. Unless people are suggesting that day after day, year after year, decade after decade, the game is being run by incompetent people.  I don't see any geniuses on here stepping up to the plate and taking over, driving the sport to untold levels of popularity

Whist heritage is important, it should not drag us back, either.  Our game has to stand on what it is today and what it can be in future, not what it was in the past. That's a foreign country. When you have kids who think of Churchill merely  as an insurance company, 1895 is lost in the passage of time. It was  Clare Balding who rrearked that too many in rugby league carried chips on their shoulders. She wasn't wrong 

The impact of social changes of the last 30 or so go right across the game and there are now  many activities competing for our time and money. The diaspora of fans because of housing, education, employment and travel infrastructure has had a marked effect.

I went to all of Wigan's victories in the 1980/1990s  great atmosphere queueing for tickets at Central Park, and in the inevitable jams on the M1. Crowds blocking the pavements outside the street corner pubs, meeting old mates at the Harrow Tavern...only for it to have been replaced by flats when we went to the Wigan Vs Sheffield game but that was then, and this is now.

It might be great for the players to get to Wembley but it's not the same Wembley and it's no longer the end-of- season celebration it once was.

I think that is reflected in what might seem to be a half- hearted approach. For the fans if not the clubs and players, it's not the big draw it used to be.

I'm not sure why you can't believe that we have incompetence John. I get what you're saying, some people will complain no matter what, and they even moaned a few years ago when crowds were far higher, but I believe the incompetence stems form us being a poor sport financially. Incompetence may be a harsh word, but I don't believe we have anything like the right people to do better than we are - time after time we are seeing poor ticketing, loss of sponsors, inconsistent strategic decisions, poor pricing, poor scheduling - we do have lots of real life examples that show that as a unit, the RFL lacks the noise to propel the game forward. 

That may be due to lack of money, but it doesn't change the outcome. 

[JohnM]

Certainly, there has to be a recurring and common issue if the RFL has been saddled with such alleged incompetents over the last 30 years or more and it may well be money. However, in my view, the conditioned reflex of blaming the RFL , as seems to be the case with a good few active posters, does no one any favours. Now they have IMG to blame, too.

In my view, it's undeniable that the world has changed and  I feel strongly that we have to change with it.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment: however you re-assemble a pile of dinosaur bones, you still end up with a dinosaur.

Disclosure: I still believe the comp can be reinvigorated by design, just  not by looking backwards 

[JohnM]

Over on the RLW topic on how to fill Wembley, I've just posted this.

Anyway, here's a completely wild idea designed to inject jeopardy and competitivity . The SL clubs are privileged by coming into the draw only in the later stages. To remove that privilege and to create giant-killing opportunities, create a points handicap system . So for example, Wigan were to be drawn against York, then York would have a 20 , 30, 40 point start depending on league position and current performance. 

Well, I did say it was a wild idea.