What needs to be done differently?

[Archie Gordon]

21 minutes ago, JonM said:

Twice I reckon (Richard Lewis and David Oxley). Arguably Bill Fallowfield was an outsider as an ex- England RU international, ex- RAF Officer and Cambridge Graduate, even if he was a Northern man. We have had a privately educated, former president of the Cambridge Union lesbian from Hampshire as RFL president too. 

I did think about how to classify Oxley but I always thought he landed the job almost by accident. Anyway, he's another example of an outsider having a positive influence, yes.

Clare Balding was a figurehead though.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Click said:

What are you suggesting we do differently to what we have done for the last 120 + years ? 

I will reverse your question to you Click or anyone else who cares to answer.

Since August 1895 there has been many incarnations of Professional Rugby Legue Clubs that have been established around this Country and Wales and with very few exceptions have not lasted very long before closing the doors, why is that?

In my opinion we as a sport in this country can't afford to do what the NRL do in it's expansion programme we are simply not wealthy enough infact in comparison we are impoverished, nor do we have the popularity to take the risk for a club to be established and be sustainable in new areas.

So what would you or anyone else do differently to what has been done for those 120+ years, considering we has a sport have no money to add to private investment?

 

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Click said:

What are you suggesting we do differently to what we have done for the last 120 + years ? 

Double post

Edited September 12 by Harry Stottle

[gingerjon]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

I will reverse your question to you Click or anyone else who cares to answer.

Since August 1895 there has been many incarnations of Professional Rugby Legue Clubs that have been established around this Country and Wales and with very few exceptions have not lasted very long before closing the doors, why is that?

In my opinion we as a sport in this country can't afford to do what the NRL do in it's expansion programme we are simply not wealthy enough infact in comparison we are impoverished, nor do we have the popularity to take the risk for a club to be established and be sustainable in new areas.

So what would you or anyone else do differently to what has been done for those 120+ years, considering we has a sport have no money to add to private investment?

How much money do you think will go to the heartlands if the RFL stopped its expansion programme this very second?

Just a rough number will do.

[Click]

38 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Those are your words not mine Click, yes people like yourself do enjoy the sport but not in the numbers that are enough to support a club away from the heartlands, please contradict what I say with facts not just an opinion.

Rugby League is an organic product, it needs to be rooted in areas where people have grown up with it for it to be appreciated in enough numbers for it to grow and prosper

No Harry, these are your words.

The fact is that the game is contracting even in those areas that have had a club for 100 + years as those clubs aren't connected to their local communities in the way they used to be in the past.

Not sure what your point about not enough numbers to support a club away from the heartlands, there aren't enough numbers to support the clubs in the heartlands with the amount of clubs going through financial difficulties. 

[Click]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I will reverse your question to you Click or anyone else who cares to answer.

Since August 1895 there has been many incarnations of Professional Rugby Legue Clubs that have been established around this Country and Wales and with very few exceptions have not lasted very long before closing the doors, why is that?

In my opinion we as a sport in this country can't afford to do what the NRL do in it's expansion programme we are simply not wealthy enough infact in comparison we are impoverished, nor do we have the popularity to take the risk for a club to be established and be sustainable in new areas.

So what would you or anyone else do differently to what has been done for those 120+ years, considering we has a sport have no money to add to private investment?

 

Because in all of those clubs it has just been 1 man who has a bit of money who decided to start a club somewhere and the RFL's response was always "good luck, have fun"

The RFL should have been spreading the game for the last 50 + years. The fact that they didn't is what is helping cause the lack of money in the game.

Like others have said - Too many people listening to those in the local boozers rather than looking at the bigger picture

[RP London]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I will reverse your question to you Click or anyone else who cares to answer.

Since August 1895 there has been many incarnations of Professional Rugby Legue Clubs that have been established around this Country and Wales and with very few exceptions have not lasted very long before closing the doors, why is that?

In my opinion we as a sport in this country can't afford to do what the NRL do in it's expansion programme we are simply not wealthy enough infact in comparison we are impoverished, nor do we have the popularity to take the risk for a club to be established and be sustainable in new areas.

So what would you or anyone else do differently to what has been done for those 120+ years, considering we has a sport have no money to add to private investment?

 

So you demand people answer your questions but you refuse to answer someone else's... thats nice. 

[Archie Gordon]

If this thread is about doing things differently, and we are also discussing geographical expansion, a key thing for me is to stop thinking that expansion into new areas needs a pro club as the vehicle. For me, the pro club is the last piece of the jigsaw. 

[RP London]

16 minutes ago, Click said:

Because in all of those clubs it has just been 1 man who has a bit of money who decided to start a club somewhere and the RFL's response was always "good luck, have fun"

The RFL should have been spreading the game for the last 50 + years. The fact that they didn't is what is helping cause the lack of money in the game.

Like others have said - Too many people listening to those in the local boozers rather than looking at the bigger picture

London was growing and was starting to really show glimpses of what it could be when it had money invested by the RFL and Sport England in the correct areas... it gets pulled and we are basically left with a 1 bullet club.

Heartland clubs have been bailed out in the past but when an expansion team needed help they didnt get it.. this is an historic thing dating way back, Harry wants to talk of the last 135 years well read some of the correspondence between the RFL bigwigs and those in expansion areas and it makes for some very sad reading (I've done it). even to the point of one letter asking for some rule books to be sent down to London in the early 30s to help the development there and a flat out refusal to do it was sent by the RFL.. its almost Royston Vaysey like in its "not from round here" attitude.. and I have felt that on the pitch too as a Sheffielder playing in London with a more southern than northern accent some of the "what are you doing playing" attitudes we got from some northern clubs was terrible (especially when we were beating them). These are experiences, they are real archival letters.. this isnt just conjecture.

[RP London]

5 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

If this thread is about doing things differently, and we are also discussing geographical expansion, a key thing for me is to stop thinking that expansion into new areas needs a pro club as the vehicle. For me, the pro club is the last piece of the jigsaw. 

couldnt agree more.. after seeing it first hand in London it was the junior development that moved the fastest and honestly it didnt need that much money in the grand scheme of things to make a big difference. What it needed was peoples time and some patience, the latter being one of the biggest things RL lacks across the board IMHO, as can be seen on any of the numerous threads on here when something new is done the "it'll never work" followed by the "i told you so" when it is binned within a very very short time frame, one that would never ever have shown a positive return in any sport/business.

[JM2010]

36 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

How much money do you think will go to the heartlands if the RFL stopped its expansion programme this very second?

Just a rough number will do.

For me it’s not about diverting money from expansion into the heartlands it’s trying to increase the quality, crowds and profile to put RL into a stronger position to be able to attract fans, players and sponsors from expansion areas. Work from a position of strength 

[JDR]

Just a couple of impressions from me, which may not stand up to statistical analysis:

1. In general I don't think the sport of RL is run any worse than the other 2 large football codes in the UK - both are reliant on rich benefactors or considerable support from the education system, government etc which make them seem "bigger fish".
2. While there is room for improvement I think the product on the pitch is good enough to sustain itself given the correct promotion and support.

Despite coming from the heartlands I never got to play RL at school (other than the occasional PE/games lesson) and only played properly when I went to University in Wales!

[Archie Gordon]

7 minutes ago, RP London said:

couldnt agree more.. after seeing it first hand in London it was the junior development that moved the fastest and honestly it didnt need that much money in the grand scheme of things to make a big difference. What it needed was peoples time and some patience, the latter being one of the biggest things RL lacks across the board IMHO, as can be seen on any of the numerous threads on here when something new is done the "it'll never work" followed by the "i told you so" when it is binned within a very very short time frame, one that would never ever have shown a positive return in any sport/business.

Indeed.

If I wanted to expand the game into [region], I would first develop and nurture the community game - very hard work but not big £££. Next would come a Lions Dev Pathway for juniors, schools comps, a push for college RL - again, mainly an investment in people. After that, play some England games there and make a bit of a fuss over them - academy, wheelchair, Community Lions to start with; a women's test, if we are bold enough. Again, not big £££. Then an OTR SL game every year - that ought to pay for itself. Later, an England men's test or a MW or a CC semi-final or maybe a new event - now we are introducing some financial risk, granted. Next we could think about an academy set-up for our community game - £300k pa.

A pro club would be well down the list of priorities.

As it happens, we have some expansion regions that are on step 2 or 3 of the above but we say expansion is failing there because the pro club in that area is struggling.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

How much money do you think will go to the heartlands if the RFL stopped its expansion programme this very second?

Just a rough number will do.

Clarify the RFL's expansion programme for me and what it spends on it.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Click said:

Rugby League is an organic product, it needs to be rooted in areas where people have grown up with it for it to be appreciated in enough numbers for it to grow and prosper

No Harry, these are your words.

The fact is that the game is contracting even in those areas that have had a club for 100 + years as those clubs aren't connected to their local communities in the way they used to be in the past.

Not sure what your point about not enough numbers to support a club away from the heartlands, there aren't enough numbers to support the clubs in the heartlands with the amount of clubs going through financial difficulties. 

As I say Click it needs to be rooted, not just seeds cast hoping they will germinate, tried that to many times.

Totally agree, re the community game I have been involved in it for many many years - not so much these days except for spectating - and this is precisely the point I am making Click, spend what we can here to make the game as big and as good as it can be.

And again re your last paragraph, put the resources into rescuing what we have and treat what is wrong, before speculating elsewhere.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Click said:

Because in all of those clubs it has just been 1 man who has a bit of money who decided to start a club somewhere and the RFL's response was always "good luck, have fun"

The RFL should have been spreading the game for the last 50 + years. The fact that they didn't is what is helping cause the lack of money in the game.

Like others have said - Too many people listening to those in the local boozers rather than looking at the bigger picture

The bigger picture whatever that is, is simply not affordable, you are actually agreeing with me if you look back at what I said, expansion should have been done years ago.

[Harry Stottle]

57 minutes ago, RP London said:

So you demand people answer your questions but you refuse to answer someone else's... thats nice. 

Please point me.

[Click]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I say Click it needs to be rooted, not just seeds cast hoping they will germinate, tried that to many times.

Totally agree, re the community game I have been involved in it for many many years - not so much these days except for spectating - and this is precisely the point I am making Click, spend what we can here to make the game as big and as good as it can be.

And again re your last paragraph, put the resources into rescuing what we have and treat what is wrong, before speculating elsewhere.

Except that is exactly the strategy that has been used for the last 120 years.

[Click]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

The bigger picture whatever that is, is simply not affordable, you are actually agreeing with me if you look back at what I said, expansion should have been done years ago.

Yes, expansion should have been done years ago.

Where we differ seems to be that you think we cannot expand now, it is too late, should have done that years ago, won't work now, etc. 

If the only way for someone/people to get involved in RL is to have grown up with it then we are truly up a creek.

[RP London]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Please point me.

Your memory must be terrible.. just 1 of many examples was your school teacher style demands on @bobbruce on the IMG thread.. just answer the question if you expect people to answer yours.. 

[redjonn]

On 11/09/2024 at 06:08, Eddie said:

To expand on this very erudite point, in the East of England (which I assume is the same as the south in terms of its general view of rugby league, or lack of), when I mention rugby league people often immediately say they don’t mind watching it or that it’s better than rugby union, but there isn’t a national team or anywhere near local club for them to watch or get behind, which massively hinders interest. If there was a better geographic spread of clubs it would help, as few people in Norwich for example, or Bristol or Plymouth or wherever are going to think to watch Leeds v Wigan, despite the quality of it, as they have no link with either of those places.  Union’s club game is the same but of course they have a proper international game and a huge media presence. 

I understand you point and somewhat agree, but and maybe a big but I wonder why I take an interest in NFL and follow a particular team or why many support a football club in the PL from other countries, only ever watching their game on TV.  Even why people seem to follow  a particular NRL team in the UK.  

My point being you don't need a national team to hook many into following an interest in a non geographical local team and watching on TV.

 

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The bigger picture whatever that is, is simply not affordable, you are actually agreeing with me if you look back at what I said, expansion should have been done years ago.

indeed and (from experience, something you prize so highly) its the RFL that have actually been a major block to expansion no matter what it looks like on the surface and thats not just recent it goes waaaaaay back.. 

[bobbruce]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I will reverse your question to you Click or anyone else who cares to answer.

Since August 1895 there has been many incarnations of Professional Rugby Legue Clubs that have been established around this Country and Wales and with very few exceptions have not lasted very long before closing the doors, why is that?

In my opinion we as a sport in this country can't afford to do what the NRL do in it's expansion programme we are simply not wealthy enough infact in comparison we are impoverished, nor do we have the popularity to take the risk for a club to be established and be sustainable in new areas.

So what would you or anyone else do differently to what has been done for those 120+ years, considering we has a sport have no money to add to private investment?

 

Castleford,Whitehaven,Workington and Hull KR. 

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, RP London said:

Your memory must be terrible.. just 1 of many examples was your school teacher style demands on @bobbruce on the IMG thread.. just answer the question if you expect people to answer yours.. 

Memory must be shocking, I thought I had answered.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Castleford,Whitehaven,Workington and Hull KR. 

There as been many that have gone to the wall Bob, not all.

Which if those do you consider not to heartland clubs, unless of course you mean Westmoorland

Edited September 12 by Harry Stottle