What needs to be done differently?

[JM2010]

What are clubs like getting into the different communities? A lot of the places that play RL have pretty diverse populations. Do clubs do anything to engage with these communities?

[M j M]

3 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I was talking about the word merge. I think he might have been tongue in cheek with his reply.

 

Sadly I think he's being serious. He's mentioned this lunatic, badly conceived idea before.

[JM2010]

1 minute ago, M j M said:

Sadly I think he's being serious. He's mentioned this lunatic, badly conceived idea before.

Oh right. I don’t want to get into that discussion!!!

[sheddingswasus]

The obsession with expansion at all cost yo the detriment of the heart of the game is the biggest issue in my opinion. 
Growth if done correctly becomes organic. Midlands Hurricanes is a good example. 

However as a sport we have continued to ignore the heart of the sport. The heart beat. Even the heartlands clubs have seemingly disenfranchised the community clubs. My club did sadly for over 20 years before the new owners got a grip of it.

i believe every pro club needs to be actively engaged with the community clubs and not just lip service. Provide coaching support, pro clubs training with the community players. This should be compulsory.

if we strengthen the game from the core, from its heart, the game will strengthen organically. If community players & clubs connect with the parent club, the game will build. Make clubs gave reserve teams to give players who missed cosies a more nature second chance. There are some really good players in the community game who with professional coaching and conditioning would make excellent pro players .

Surely it’s time to give ours lads a chance rather second rate overseas players.

To my original point strengthen the game at its core and hopefully the game can expand properly and not artificially 

 

[JM2010]

4 minutes ago, sheddingswasus said:

The obsession with expansion at all cost yo the detriment of the heart of the game is the biggest issue in my opinion. 
Growth if done correctly becomes organic. Midlands Hurricanes is a good example. 

However as a sport we have continued to ignore the heart of the sport. The heart beat. Even the heartlands clubs have seemingly disenfranchised the community clubs. My club did sadly for over 20 years before the new owners got a grip of it.

i believe every pro club needs to be actively engaged with the community clubs and not just lip service. Provide coaching support, pro clubs training with the community players. This should be compulsory.

if we strengthen the game from the core, from its heart, the game will strengthen organically. If community players & clubs connect with the parent club, the game will build. Make clubs gave reserve teams to give players who missed cosies a more nature second chance. There are some really good players in the community game who with professional coaching and conditioning would make excellent pro players .

Surely it’s time to give ours lads a chance rather second rate overseas players.

To my original point strengthen the game at its core and hopefully the game can expand properly and not artificially 

 

I agree, especially the bit about pro clubs engaging with the community clubs. Some clubs are better than others. If pro clubs can take an active role in the local community game then they could help the community clubs with coaching and recruitment and maybe even supporting people who want to set up new clubs. 
 

I also think a stronger school set up would be beneficial. How often do schools play fixtures? Is there any schools leagues? Do the pro clubs host local school and community club tournaments?

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

What you're overlooking is that the audience problem is a direct result of the geography problem.

The game can't cater to those other demographics you mention without a lot more money to spend on upgrading its presentation, but its stunted geography means that it can't attract the sort of money needed to make those upgrades.  The sort of money needed is nowhere to be found in those heartland towns, and there's no way to attract it into those towns either.

So yes, having top-tier teams in Leigh, Wigan or Castleford does stop the sport from doing that because they're nowhere near fashionable enough.  When the norm in other sports is national and international competitions with the top teams based largely in big cities, I suggest that there's no evidence that those other demographics can be attracted to a small regional competition whereas the notion that they can't be is much more likely.

Again, I don't agree. 

There is nobody in a well-healed town like Harrogate, well within our heartland region and with two "city" clubs to choose from, who isn't going to a Rhinos or York game because of towns like Castleford and Leigh. 

They're not going because neither the Rhinos nor York have either offered them something that they want, or got through to them with a message that they do have something they want. 

We have so many more tools and platforms to reach people with our content. If we can't reach people on our doorstep with that, swapping out small-town teams for "pins in map" city clubs doesn't change that. 

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

But also we do need to expand geographically too.

The geography is an issue, but I think it's important not to hang any conversation on the geography argument because we ultimately end up looking at it as a problem which the game can't realistically solve. The clubs aren't interested in fixing the geography problem (some are even hostile to it and see it as a threat), the governing body has no funds to fix it, and even if there were a queue of potential investors willing to fund it, RL simply doesn't offer the returns on investment. 

Look at it as an audience problem first - where people live is largely immaterial. 

[JM2010]

Selling out and getting good coverage of the event games would be a good start.  The CC semi finals and final, the GF, Magic Weekend and internationals all played in front of sell out crowds with a lot of fanfare and media coverage might get people to sit up and take notice of our sport 

[RP London]

2 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I disagree with this. I don't see "expansion" as a geography problem - it's an audience problem. 

We currently cater to a very small number of demographic segments within our own heartland areas. We don't cater well to people looking for more premium experiences. We don't cater well to younger audiences. We don't cater well to students and graduates. We don't cater well to people from heartland areas who move around the country for work or study. We don't cater well to people who want to buy good quality merchandise. We don't cater well to people who want to consumer RL content online. 

None of those issues are issues of geography. They're issues that we're not even addressing with the people on our doorstep. 

As a sport we produce a lot of content - even more of it now that IMG are a partner - and we need to spread that content. We need to stop seeing success simply through the metrics of attendances, and around much broader metrics of reach and engagement - because if we can build an audience for people who like our stuff, we can sell that audience to commercial partners. I don't think having teams in Leigh, Wigan or Castleford stops us from doing that. 

I agree with this

2 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

 

get the Sunday afternoon strippers back on in the pub before the game 

 

 

I also agree with this... 

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Again, I don't agree. 

There is nobody in a well-healed town like Harrogate, well within our heartland region and with two "city" clubs to choose from, who isn't going to a Rhinos or York game because of towns like Castleford and Leigh. 

They're not going because neither the Rhinos nor York have either offered them something that they want, or got through to them with a message that they do have something they want. 

We have so many more tools and platforms to reach people with our content. If we can't reach people on our doorstep with that, swapping out small-town teams for "pins in map" city clubs doesn't change that. 

Part of that though is about the offering of a high status event between high profile teams in high profile competitions.

I agree it's not just as simple as plonk team in big cities and it's solved. However there is a broader problem caused by our lack of geographic diversity and then by extension how those areas are mostly very far from being culturally influential (certainly beyond the point of critical masse).

That problem means we haven't got a decent computer game franchise that kids latch onto. Why we don't have trading cards kids and adults buy. Why we don't have really popular modern social media accounts and influencers. Rugby Union has lots of these issues too, but it's audience is both in reality and perception seen as more wealthy - and it is fundamentally more popular.

Whilst it is an audience problem, it is also clearly a geographical problem too, and these factors do interact with one another.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

Sadly I think he's being serious. He's mentioned this lunatic, badly conceived idea before.

Sorry, confused, which idea?

Edited September 10, 2024 by RP London

[Tommygilf]

51 minutes ago, sheddingswasus said:

The obsession with expansion at all cost yo the detriment of the heart of the game is the biggest issue in my opinion. 
Growth if done correctly becomes organic. Midlands Hurricanes is a good example. 

However as a sport we have continued to ignore the heart of the sport. The heart beat. Even the heartlands clubs have seemingly disenfranchised the community clubs. My club did sadly for over 20 years before the new owners got a grip of it.

i believe every pro club needs to be actively engaged with the community clubs and not just lip service. Provide coaching support, pro clubs training with the community players. This should be compulsory.

if we strengthen the game from the core, from its heart, the game will strengthen organically. If community players & clubs connect with the parent club, the game will build. Make clubs gave reserve teams to give players who missed cosies a more nature second chance. There are some really good players in the community game who with professional coaching and conditioning would make excellent pro players .

Surely it’s time to give ours lads a chance rather second rate overseas players.

To my original point strengthen the game at its core and hopefully the game can expand properly and not artificially 

 

Obsession with expansion, real or not, hasn't done that, Clubs in the heartlands being lazy and/or having no money has done that.

[17 stone giant]

7 minutes ago, RP London said:

Sorry, confused, which idea?

Merging the two rugby codes. It's Egghead's regular suggestion.

[HawkMan]

8 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Merging the two rugby codes. It's Egghead's regular suggestion.

Don't think the Eggheads have pontificated on merging codes, Eggface might have done though.

[iffleyox]

4 hours ago, RP London said:

I dont understand why people would now look for other answers when we havent even tried this one yet.. 

I didn’t know you were new to rugby league…

[Gerrumonside ref]

Not enough people with money like rugby league.

 

[MattSantos]

5 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

I just think we need to make the weather a bit more. Nobody seems to be in charge of the sport in the UK. Who are we looking to as leader(s)? Seems to me that after many global searches for talent we have ended up with a cast of RFL salarymen in all the positions of authority.

We absolutely need stronger and more diverse leadership. I had to google who was in charge...

In summary, it's a bloke from within the sport and previously with companies with no further reach than Yorkshire. Makes loads of sense that.

--

For poos and giggles, i asked ChatGPT to suggest 5 potential leaders from outside the RFL:

Here are five suggested leaders to run the Rugby Football League (RFL) from outside the organization, along with reasons why they could be a good fit:

1. Sue Campbell

• Why?: Sue Campbell, currently the Director of Women’s Football at the FA, has a stellar track record of transforming sports organizations and delivering success. As the former Chair of UK Sport (2003–2013), she was instrumental in developing a high-performance culture that led to Team GB’s record-breaking performances at the Olympics. Campbell is highly respected for her focus on athlete welfare, strategic vision, and commitment to inclusion. Her experience in navigating complex sporting environments and fostering growth would be invaluable for the RFL as it looks to grow both the men’s and women’s game.

2. Liz Nicholl

• Why?: Liz Nicholl served as the CEO of UK Sport (2010–2019), where she oversaw an incredibly successful period for British Olympic and Paralympic sports, including record medal hauls at London 2012 and Rio 2016. She is known for her strategic approach to sports governance, particularly in how she prioritized performance and funding allocation. Nicholl's experience in building partnerships and her ability to handle pressure in high-performance environments would help the RFL revitalize its structure and performance, particularly with regards to elite competition and grassroots development.

3. David Grevemberg

• Why?: David Grevemberg, former CEO of the Commonwealth Games Federation (CGF), is widely respected for his leadership in global sport governance. Under his stewardship, the Commonwealth Games emphasized diversity, equality, and sustainability, helping to modernize the event. Grevemberg is experienced in managing large-scale sporting events, building inclusive sporting cultures, and enhancing commercial value. His global perspective and experience with complex governance structures would provide fresh insights into how the RFL could modernize and expand its appeal.

4. Maggie Alphonsi

• Why?: Maggie Alphonsi, a former England rugby union international, has emerged as a highly influential figure in the broader sports world. As a player, she was known for her leadership and resilience, and she has since become a respected commentator and advocate for diversity in sport. Alphonsi brings a deep understanding of rugby’s culture and challenges, particularly in terms of grassroots development and promoting inclusivity. Her advocacy for women’s sport and experience as a role model could help the RFL grow the women’s game while maintaining a strong connection to the sport's community base.

5. John Steele

• Why?: John Steele, Executive Director of Sport at Loughborough University and former CEO of the RFU (Rugby Football Union), has extensive experience in sports leadership. Steele has successfully managed large sporting organizations, particularly through periods of change. His previous role at the RFU and his deep understanding of rugby’s landscape make him a natural fit for the RFL. Steele is known for promoting long-term sustainability in sport, focusing on both high performance and grassroots engagement, which would align with the RFL’s need to strengthen its foundations while improving the commercial side of the sport.

Why These People?

These individuals are drawn from various parts of the UK’s sporting landscape but share common traits that make them excellent candidates for leadership of the RFL:

• Proven Leadership: They have all demonstrated an ability to lead organizations through periods of change, manage complex structures, and deliver results in high-performance environments.
• Experience with Large-Scale Sports: Whether managing elite competition or grassroots development, each has a track record of handling multiple layers of sporting organizations.
• Commitment to Inclusivity and Modernization: Many of these figures have been at the forefront of modernizing sports, fostering inclusivity, and ensuring that organizations adapt to the demands of the 21st century.
• Strong Rugby Knowledge or Transferable Expertise: While not all have direct experience in rugby league, their leadership in rugby union or other relevant sports provides them with the transferable skills necessary to elevate the RFL.

Bringing in someone from outside the current RFL structure could introduce fresh ideas, challenge outdated approaches, and create a new direction for the organization.

 

[sam4731]

Short sighted people at the top.

[M j M]

5 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Short sighted people at the top.

People say this a lot but I don't really agree. Not to say the current people are doing the best job possible but the reality is that there is no brilliant appointment or magic solution which will cure the game's problems - or even come close.

[Gerrumonside ref]

The most powerful people in UK RL are the chairs of the top clubs.

We could appoint a really brilliant administrator but unless the actual seats of power are willing to cede their authority to them then not a lot will change.

Also as these different power points are ultimately competing with each other theres a real contradiction in any attempts at working collectively.

[JM2010]

1 minute ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

The most powerful people in UK RL are the chairs of the top clubs.

We could appoint a really brilliant administrator but unless the actual seats of power are willing to cede their authority to them then not a lot will change.

Also as these different power points are ultimately competing with each other theres a real contradiction in any attempts at working collectively.

I think that if the top clubs could shut up shop and reduce the amount of clubs they share the TV money with they would. I know each club has to look after themselves first but a more collective approach to marketing, junior development and growing the game of RL is needed

[Eddie]

4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

The problem is that as a small, poor, low profile regional sport locked into smallish, unfashionable towns the sport has no way to do that.  That picture simply doesn't have enough appeal now, even in the game's heartland. 

This is why more and more of the sons and grandsons of the RL players and fans of yesteryear aren't interested and only go to matches if their parents drag them along.  If it doesn't appeal to them, how is it supposed to appeal to outsiders?

As a result IMG has precious little to work with and all they've been able to come up with is rehashing past ideas which didn't work and/or the clubs resist.

And just how do you expect the Aussies to change the fundamental problems which I just spelled out?

Why do you think the sons of players have to get dragged to matches? 

[Toby Chopra]

30 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Part of that though is about the offering of a high status event between high profile teams in high profile competitions.

I agree it's not just as simple as plonk team in big cities and it's solved. However there is a broader problem caused by our lack of geographic diversity and then by extension how those areas are mostly very far from being culturally influential (certainly beyond the point of critical masse).

That problem means we haven't got a decent computer game franchise that kids latch onto. Why we don't have trading cards kids and adults buy. Why we don't have really popular modern social media accounts and influencers. Rugby Union has lots of these issues too, but it's audience is both in reality and perception seen as more wealthy - and it is fundamentally more popular.

Whilst it is an audience problem, it is also clearly a geographical problem too, and these factors do interact with one another.

Indeed. For people in the south, rugby league's perceived narrow geography is directly intertwined with perceptions of it being for a narrow social group.

It just doubles the reason that - regardless of what people might think of the skills and physicality on show - most don't see it as a sport people for people like them to invest time and emotion in.

As an earlier poster said, there's no easy fix for this, but I do think the first decade or so the Broncos were in Superleague and doing ok did make a difference to the sport's national perception. And to reference another thread - yes, them being called 'London' Broncos is the crucial bit - the L-word does a lot of heavy lifting in terms of making the sport nationally relevant.

[sam4731]

38 minutes ago, M j M said:

People say this a lot but I don't really agree. Not to say the current people are doing the best job possible but the reality is that there is no brilliant appointment or magic solution which will cure the game's problems - or even come close.

My comment was about SL chairmen. By definition as business people they are short sighted but the game shouldn't be run by business people.

[Big Picture]

41 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Why do you think the sons of players have to get dragged to matches? 

Not sons of current players, sons (or more accurately grandsons) of past players.  Not just of past players, but past fans too.

We know that the fan base is aging, and stagnant for some clubs and shrinking for others.  We know the player pool is shrinking too.

If the sons and grandsons of the RL players and fans of yesteryear were all still interested in the game that would not be the case.  If they were all still interested, they would easily be enough to replenish the fan base and player pool by themselves wouldn't they. But that evidently isn't happening, as the stagnant and slowly shrinking fan base shows.

Therefore it's reasonable to conclude that their interest has waned, and it makes sense to inquire why.  And I think it very likely that when they compare what RL has to offer them to what other sports offer they see RL's offering as poor and uninteresting.