Jump to content


Rugby League World - Grand Finals Issue

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD - THE GRAND FINALS ISSUE - OUT 17 OCT OR DOWNLOAD IT NOW!
Try our Fantastic 4-Issue Bundle Offer:
For just £14, a saving of 10% on the regular cover price, you’ll get:

The Grand Finals Issue (out 17 Oct) – Grand Final drama from both hemispheres plus Four Nations preview
The Four Nations Issue (out 21 Nov) – Fantastic coverage of the Four Nations tournament down under
The Golden Boot Issue (out 19 Dec) – A look back at the 2014 season plus the big reveal of the winner of the Golden Boot
The 2015 Season Preview Issue (out 23 Jan) – How will your team perform in 2015? We preview every club.


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Sticking at it in wrexham


  • Please log in to reply
87 replies to this topic

#21 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:41 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 24 2010, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
wrexham with zero years in nl1 and 2 have done better in SL than CC did with their 3 years in those competitions.

this shows the futility of making expansion teams go through the championship as any kind of proving ground

for whatever reason wrexham are a stronger club than CC, they have been set up better.


In what way? I've shown how when their attendances have settled they are no better and their team is essentially the same team they would have been likely to have in Bridgend.

They saw growth in the Championship too but were promoted far too early. They still only had a core of around 1000 fans when they came up. They only sold 250 season tickets when they entered Super League, that shows how unprepared they still were. They were still a top down promotion to Super League, no doubt about it.

#22 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:47 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 24 2010, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All very fair and valid points. However, you need to remember that there will hardly have been any season ticket sales due to moving there 6 weeks before the start of the season, which will affect the core crowd greatly. Next year while there may not be the huge burst of enthusiasm, there will hopefully be a more stable fan base through season ticket sales.

And, compared to Bridgend, at least there was that burst of enthusiasm and for that long.

It's a shame that Bridgend didn't continue in the Championship though which they were trying to do at the start of the season alongside the Scorpions. Could have been a good local derby there.


Agree with all those points. The season ticket one will be especially interesting as Celtic only managed 250 season tickets in their first year in Super League. That will be the true test of how many people they have converted because the drop off has been worrying. This was where Catalans managed to take off. They went from 1500 ST's to something like 5000 in a couple of years if I remember correctly. If they don't get many ST holders I think they'll struggle next year.

There could have been enthusiasm in Bridgend, especially if they'd been more competitive on the pitch. The enthusiasm at Wrexham was great but if it's not sustained then it's useless. Let's not forget we had 17,000 in Paris that had dwindled to 500 within a couple of years for whatever reason. I'm sure people at the end of the first year were talking in similar ways to this.

They should have tried to get another team going in Bridgend. They had easily enough support for a decent NL2 club.

#23 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:50 PM

QUOTE (Mumby Magic @ Aug 24 2010, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Excellent reply. We all seem to overlook the holiday period when looking at attendances too. I'm am personally encouraged by their attendances even down at Bridgend. They are already at the attendance level of Salford after 2 seasons at SL level. A move back to Neath for a few games saw the attendances at 2400 approx which isn't disasterous to say it's still new ground. I think the ticket prices to a "new" audience are slightly high but that is my only grumble.

On a side note, a good little snippet on South Wales Scorpions was on the Super League Show and it was very interesting.


I know little about the running of an NL2 club but if the SW Scorpions are doing Ok and not losing money then I think we should aim to put another couple of NL2 clubs in Wales in the next few years.

#24 dallymessenger

dallymessenger
  • Coach
  • 20,928 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:52 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 24 2010, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In what way? I've shown how when their attendances have settled they are no better and their team is essentially the same team they would have been likely to have in Bridgend.

They saw growth in the Championship too but were promoted far too early. They still only had a core of around 1000 fans when they came up. They only sold 250 season tickets when they entered Super League, that shows how unprepared they still were. They were still a top down promotion to Super League, no doubt about it.


nonsense.

they spent 3 years preparing for SL in NL1 and 2.

this preparation did nothing for them.

you say it was too soon for CC to be promoted to SL after 3 years preparing yet wrexham had 6 weeks and have done better.

pretty conclusive.

and im not buying the way you pick the crowds to suit your argument. their average is over 5000 which is excellent

#25 chrisl1

chrisl1
  • Coach
  • 588 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:00 PM

It would be more appropriate to judge Crusaders and their attendances at the end of next season to see if they are growing. It is pointless comparing the attendances at Wrexham this season with those at Bridgend last season. All Super League clubs rely to a greater or lesser extent on away support to help their home attendances. The proximity of Wrexham to other Super League clubs when compared with Bridgend obvioulsy means that the Crusaders should have been able to rely on more away supporters attending their games this season. The true test will be next season.

Edited by chrisl1, 24 August 2010 - 04:02 PM.


#26 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 24 2010, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
nonsense.

they spent 3 years preparing for SL in NL1 and 2.

this preparation did nothing for them.

you say it was too soon for CC to be promoted to SL after 3 years preparing yet wrexham had 6 weeks and have done better.

pretty conclusive.

and im not buying the way you pick the crowds to suit your argument. their average is over 5000 which is excellent


It's not picking crowds at all. It's showing that since their crowds have settled they are a similar level. They got a 10,300 sellout for Leeds and recently only 5,100 for their nearest Super League club who travel well, how do you want to explain that drop?

Bridgend spent 2 of those 3 years in Championship 1 playing in front of literally hundreds of people, yet one year later they had a Super League license. To put it in context it is the same level of 'preparation' as Hunslet being given a SL franchise in 2012. That is hardly preparation for Super League.

You repeat this notion that they have done better with 6 weeks like a mantra. If they had stayed in Bridgend how would they have done different on the pitch this year? They would have still had Brian Noble and whoever he signed for them.

#27 Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC
  • Coach
  • 9,924 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:05 PM

QUOTE (dallymessenger @ Aug 24 2010, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
nonsense.

they spent 3 years preparing for SL in NL1 and 2.

this preparation did nothing for them.

you say it was too soon for CC to be promoted to SL after 3 years preparing yet wrexham had 6 weeks and have done better.

pretty conclusive.

and im not buying the way you pick the crowds to suit your argument. their average is over 5000 which is excellent

It's impossible to say it did nothing for them without seeing the difference had they just started up from scratch in Bridgend. If Celtic Crusaders started up from nothing and went straight to SL at Bridgend, for all we know they could have averaged 1,500 and those three years in the lower leagues could have proved pivotal. It's not conclusive in the slightest.

And as MD says, there is still time for it all to come crumbling down ala Paris St Germain, who also started off well. They got some really good crowds, but also went down to getting a 500 crowd vs Salford (worst in SL history), 1,000 against Wigan and 1,500 against Warrington.
Posted Image

#28 jannerboyuk

jannerboyuk
  • Coach
  • 4,930 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:25 PM

Sigh. Yet another positive post hijacked by the egos. Cue more pointless ranting that no one reads.
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#29 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:53 PM

QUOTE (jannerboyuk @ Aug 24 2010, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sigh. Yet another positive post hijacked by the egos. Cue more pointless ranting that no one reads.


What exactly do you want from a thread like this? It's a discussion forum ffs and if you had bothered to read it you'd see that it's all been perfectly civil and virtually everybody agrees that they should be persisted with.

Without debate all you'd get is about 2 replies of people saying, 'good stuff.'

#30 jannerboyuk

jannerboyuk
  • Coach
  • 4,930 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:06 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 24 2010, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What exactly do you want from a thread like this? It's a discussion forum ffs and if you had bothered to read it you'd see that it's all been perfectly civil and virtually everybody agrees that they should be persisted with.

Without debate all you'd get is about 2 replies of people saying, 'good stuff.'

All I've seen is the usual guff from the usual suspects. This forum has become very stale so I'll think I'll leave you to your echo chamber for a while.
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#31 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE (jannerboyuk @ Aug 24 2010, 06:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All I've seen is the usual guff from the usual suspects. This forum has become very stale so I'll think I'll leave you to your echo chamber for a while.


If debate isn't allowed in your world, what makes it exciting?

#32 Martyn Sadler

Martyn Sadler

    League Publications Ltd

  • Moderator
  • 2,867 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:24 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 24 2010, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not picking crowds at all. It's showing that since their crowds have settled they are a similar level. They got a 10,300 sellout for Leeds and recently only 5,100 for their nearest Super League club who travel well, how do you want to explain that drop?


They took a half-page advert in League Express, prominently placed in the newspaper, on the Monday morning prior to the game against Leeds. The main thrust of the advert, on my advice, was to emphasise how quick it was to travel from Leeds to Wrexham.

On the day they did that, they sold 800 tickets, and it enabled them to build up momentum and start talking about a sell-out. The momentum continued and they did reach that level of ticket sales, with some fans not being able to get in on the night.

They never did that for any other game.

#33 Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC
  • Coach
  • 9,924 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (Martyn Sadler @ Aug 24 2010, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They took a half-page advert in League Express, prominently placed in the newspaper, on the Monday morning prior to the game against Leeds. The main thrust of the advert, on my advice, was to emphasise how quick it was to travel from Leeds to Wrexham.

On the day they did that, they sold 800 tickets, and it enabled them to build up momentum and start talking about a sell-out. The momentum continued and they did reach that level of ticket sales, with some fans not being able to get in on the night.

They never did that for any other game.

Strange that they never did it again if it proved to be such a success.

Unless you charge them 5million an advert! laugh.gif
Posted Image

#34 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Martyn Sadler @ Aug 24 2010, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They took a half-page advert in League Express, prominently placed in the newspaper, on the Monday morning prior to the game against Leeds. The main thrust of the advert, on my advice, was to emphasise how quick it was to travel from Leeds to Wrexham.

On the day they did that, they sold 800 tickets, and it enabled them to build up momentum and start talking about a sell-out. The momentum continued and they did reach that level of ticket sales, with some fans not being able to get in on the night.

They never did that for any other game.


Fair enough but you'd have to presume that they aren't going to do this very often next season either.

#35 Bob8

Bob8
  • Coach
  • 9,541 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:15 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 24 2010, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fair enough but you'd have to presume that they aren't going to do this very often next season either.


The situation is Wrexham is not the finished product. If the club left, we can assume that very little would spring up in its place. The number of hard core fans will be limited.

However, I am genuinely surprised by how well it has gone. The work is not finished and there are issues, but if it carries on like this it certainly surpassed my expectations and perhaps yours?

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#36 Martyn Sadler

Martyn Sadler

    League Publications Ltd

  • Moderator
  • 2,867 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:19 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 24 2010, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Strange that they never did it again if it proved to be such a success.

Unless you charge them 5million an advert! laugh.gif


I gave them a very favourable deal, because I wanted them to succeed.

Having said that, I'm not sure that constant advertising would have the desired effect. But in the right context - a new venue, effectively a new club, the only game of the weekend - it works very well, as it did in this case.

Everybody was bemoaning the Crusaders, saying the move to Wrexham would never work, so my advice to them was that a strong, confident advert promoting their first game would confound the critics and let everyone see they meant business. It persuaded a lot of people to give them a try and, crucially, allowed them to build up momentum in crowd terms in the week of the game.

That wouldn't necessarily happen for every game.

#37 THE RED ROOSTER

THE RED ROOSTER
  • Coach
  • 2,272 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:05 PM

Firstly, Crusaders attendances were always likely to dwindle after the first few matches - You get the "Heineken effect" with a lot of early froth which burns off. The key will be the retention rate of Welsh Wrexham area fans next year and the year after. The travelling hordes from Wigan, Warrington, St Helens and Widnes (in 2011 or 2012) will keep the club afloat in the way that certain Heartland clubs enjoy gate inflation due to the arrival of the fans from the above clubs the Rhinos and the two Hull clubs.

I can live with the overseas players in the Cru team at the moment - As with London in its early days you have to have a competitive side to make the franchise work. I would however like to see a five year plan to gradually make the club more Welsh year on year. The Cru have the coaching infrastructure and the juniors to make this a reality.

The club is in Wrexham, counted as part of Llanelli in RU terms so ripe for establishing League as the Rugby code in the area. And having recently been in South Wales recently on cricket duty I can confirm the Cru still get a fair shake in The South Wales Echo.

The only jarring note I have is that in my experience having been to Bridgend and Wrexham I felt the Cru fans in Bridgend were the more "rugby" oriented crowd of the two and I still harbour doubts about the long term commitment of the clubs owners to a successful RL club in Wales for when a downturn comes on and off the field will the owners stick with it or bail out. IMO the jury's out on this.

Top down expansion does not work - and I am a Quins ST holder who has watched the club since 1996. That said we have what we have, The Cru are here and every effort should be made to develop Welsh Rugby League regardless of how the club got where it is. It's here and RL fans should support it for the good of the game domestically and internationally.

Finanlly if I am clubless next year, I will be spending a few weekends up in the north west with the cousins so catching a few Cru games will be on the agenda. That's a good enough reason to keep the Cru going IMO wink.gif

I am an oil trader and successful at that but, but marketing, finance, business management, human resources etc are not my strengths


 

 

David Hughes to Ian Lenagan Page 134 - A Pastel Revolution - Fletcher and Gordas - 2006

 

Being an outsider, it is easiest to see what is wrong with the sport. It's a fantastic sport that has been undersold and under-marketed  because people who run it probably want to keep it the way it is

 

 

Dr Marwan Koukash to Joanthan Lieu. Sunday Telegraph 9th March 2014

 

 


#38 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,712 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE (Bob8 @ Aug 24 2010, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The situation is Wrexham is not the finished product. If the club left, we can assume that very little would spring up in its place. The number of hard core fans will be limited.

However, I am genuinely surprised by how well it has gone. The work is not finished and there are issues, but if it carries on like this it certainly surpassed my expectations and perhaps yours?


Of course it did. If anybody tells you they thought that they would start off with a 10k sellout they'd be lying. Their inital enthusiasm for RL was refreshing but this has largely died down to be replaced with something similar to what we had before.

I was originally replying to the idea that they are proof that top down expansion works better than giving an expansion club time in the Championship because they have done better than Celtic did. This is far from conclusive for a couple of reasons, mainly that Celtic were barely more ready than they were and that once they have settled they are at a similar level of support.

I personally think it could go either way and it of course needs to be given the chance to do so over the next licensing period. Next year will be a very important one in my opinion, if they don't build their crowds next year they may struggle to ever do so again.

Edited by Maximus Decimus, 24 August 2010 - 09:57 PM.


#39 dallymessenger

dallymessenger
  • Coach
  • 20,928 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 11:23 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Aug 24 2010, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not picking crowds at all. It's showing that since their crowds have settled they are a similar level. They got a 10,300 sellout for Leeds and recently only 5,100 for their nearest Super League club who travel well, how do you want to explain that drop?

Bridgend spent 2 of those 3 years in Championship 1 playing in front of literally hundreds of people, yet one year later they had a Super League license. To put it in context it is the same level of 'preparation' as Hunslet being given a SL franchise in 2012. That is hardly preparation for Super League.

You repeat this notion that they have done better with 6 weeks like a mantra. If they had stayed in Bridgend how would they have done different on the pitch this year? They would have still had Brian Noble and whoever he signed for them.


look i can do the funky maths too :

had they not moved the 2 games to neath their crowd average would be 6000

the RFL has learnt from the Celtic crusaders / wrexham thing, and also the pointless excercise that was toulose in the championship and will now accept foreign teams when it sees fit

the evidence shows this is the way to go

putting unrealistic hurdles on expansion teams means theyll never be ready for SL.

lets see if Stade Francaise get a SL team

#40 dallymessenger

dallymessenger
  • Coach
  • 20,928 posts

Posted 24 August 2010 - 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Aug 24 2010, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's impossible to say it did nothing for them without seeing the difference had they just started up from scratch in Bridgend. If Celtic Crusaders started up from nothing and went straight to SL at Bridgend, for all we know they could have averaged 1,500 and those three years in the lower leagues could have proved pivotal. It's not conclusive in the slightest.

And as MD says, there is still time for it all to come crumbling down ala Paris St Germain, who also started off well. They got some really good crowds, but also went down to getting a 500 crowd vs Salford (worst in SL history), 1,000 against Wigan and 1,500 against Warrington.


theres also the chance they can grow like Les Catalans.