Halton Stadium in super league 2011

[Segovia Carpet]

I may have to take a shower after this post, but...I think Saints are being pretty clever about this stadium move. It certainly makes sense from a financial perspective to sell Knowsley Road to fund the build and rent a modern stadium in the current economic climate. It is also beneficial to Widnes to show SL in a good light at the Stobart. But where Saints have really been sensible is that they have also thought about retaining their current fans who might otherwise be reluctant to travel out of St. Helens, by giving priority seating and fixing season ticket prices for 3 years if you buy one for Widnes next year. Couple that with a new logo that is more about creating a 'Saints RL' brand that is not St. Helens focused (see below) and once they move into the new stadium they may have a far bigger catchment for supporters because of a temporary geographic move.

Saints New Logo

Widnes should be the ones who are worried - assuming they have a proportion of floating support, their crowds are likely to drop next season, as the majority of people will inevitably choose SL rugby on their doorstep over an inferior alternative and may never go back. Its almost a friendly takeover by Saints RL much like a Trojan horse.

Blimey giwildgo I think the Halton Mafia will be rattling their keyboards shortly. Very inciteful post though imo.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

Widnes should be the ones who are worried - assuming they have a proportion of floating support, their crowds are likely to drop next season, as the majority of people will inevitably choose SL rugby on their doorstep over an inferior alternative and may never go back. Its almost a friendly takeover by Saints RL much like a Trojan horse.

How many "floating supporters" do you reckon Widnes' possess?

Anyone still attending after all the ###### of recent years is far more likely to be "committed" than "floating".

The floaters will have already floated off.

Where to?

Most of them probably down the pub with a Utd or Liverpool shirt on.

One of my concerns is can Widnes get these people back after whats gone on should they get back in in 2012.

Which is why I doubt they'll be beating a path to fork out to watch Saints.

For what its worth I reckon the Widnes crowds will probably fall anyway next season because theres very little interest in this division.

Of those who drop off from this season, most of then will have just had a belly full of the RFL.

If they've stuck with Widnes this long I wouldn't count on them as potential customers.

Which brings us to those who will still be watching Widnes.

This is the group were you might get a few attendees from IMO.

Though with these, while some will be rugby league diehards theres more than a few who'd have nothing to do with it.

So with regards to it being a Trojan horse, I reckon its a non starter.

You'll likely get a few who will watch both and thats about it.

With regards to Saints themselves.

It will be interesting to see how their home support stands up.

Could be a costly year for them.

[Dave T]

I think that new Saints logo is really rather nice.

[Padge]

I'm beginning to smell a rat.

Saints have ballsed this up somehwere.

The stadium is a 60 week build, 12 months ago Saints announced they were about to announce the contractor for the build., they also said that they would have to move the first few games of the 2012 season to on the road.

No problem with that so far.

Working back, lets say therefore the original opening date was going to be April 2011. 60 Weeks prior work must have started to meat the build time (we'll allow a few extra weeks for just in case.) That means build start would have to have been January this year.

Meanwhile Saqints have sold their ground to Taylor Wimpey for housing, Saints must have signed up foolishley to a fixed for vacation despite having no fixed finish date for the stadium (no builing contractor signed up).

This left Saints with an urgent need to get the contracts signed up and delivered, a share release and a

[Bleep1673]

1. It's Stobart Stadium, Halton, NOT Halton Stadium.

2. Why does Saints playing in Widnes all year make us certs for SL ? We have had our " adequate " Stadium for over 10 years, it makes no odds as far as i can see.

I thought one of the criteria for a SL license was winning one of the trophys on offer to Championship teams, doesn't look like Widnes will get a license in 2012 now, after getting beat by Batley, and being off the pace in the League. Saints playing at Widnes' Naughton Park may be the only time you get to see Superleague before the next licensing round in 2016

[Lobbygobbler]

I thought one of the criteria for a SL license was winning one of the trophys on offer to Championship teams, doesn't look like Widnes will get a license in 2012 now, after getting beat by Batley, and being off the pace in the League. Saints playing at Widnes' Naughton Park may be the only time you get to see Superleague before the next licensing round in 2016

Widnes won it last year pal

[Bomb Jack]

before the next licensing round in 2016

The next round after 2012 - 2014 is 2015 - 2017.............

[FearTheVee]

I'm beginning to smell a rat.

You're hoping you smell a rat, through poorly structured conclusions to facts.

Saints have ballsed this up somehwere.

Again, you hope they have from your weird conclusions.

The stadium is a 60 week build, 12 months ago Saints announced they were about to announce the contractor for the build., they also said that they would have to move the first few games of the 2012 season to on the road.

No problem with that so far.

Working back, lets say therefore the original opening date was going to be April 2011. 60 Weeks prior work must have started to meat the build time (we'll allow a few extra weeks for just in case.) That means build start would have to have been January this year.

Meanwhile Saqints have sold their ground to Taylor Wimpey for housing, Saints must have signed up foolishley to a fixed for vacation despite having no fixed finish date for the stadium (no builing contractor signed up).

Firstly, when did Saints say they they were looking to move "the first few games" of the 2012 season on the road to give you your January build start?

Secondly, why is a fixed date for vacation foolish? It offered the club certainty of timing and locked in a contract value. No building contractor signed up? So what? That is a tender process - do you think all the builders are going to disappear by the time Saints offer the project for tender? It's not like we're begging for a contractor, the contractors fight for the work.

This left Saints with an urgent need to get the contracts signed up and delivered, a share release and a

Edited July 20, 2010 by FearTheVee

[Whacky Llama]

You're hoping you smell a rat, through poorly structured conclusions to facts.

Again, you hope they have from your weird conclusions.

Firstly, when did Saints say they they were looking to move "the first few games" of the 2012 season on the road to give you your January build start?

Secondly, why is a fixed date for vacation foolish? It offered the club certainty of timing and locked in a contract value. No building contractor signed up? So what? That is a tender process - do you think all the builders are going to disappear by the time Saints offer the project for tender? It's not like we're begging for a contractor, the contractors fight for the work.

Or to strengthen the club's balance sheet by converting debt to equity and putting the Limited company in a stronger position to raise finance on better terms? Could you give a link to the source saying this cash was pumped into the project rather than converting debt to equity, or have you made it up?

Is that REALLY the rat you smell Hardly worth all that research, Saints fans have known for ages we'd be playing the majority if not all of 2011 at Widnes. It's a multi-faceted project with partners other than Saints, unforeseen delays are not unheard of.

It's had enormous obstacles dating back many years, which is why it's taken so long and is such a great achievement. So why do you say "Saints have ballsed this up somewhere" when the reality is that Saints have done terrifcally well to get this project off the ground in a difficult environment?

We always had a contingency to play at Widnes, so we did "have a replacement in place". The long term replacement is a brand new, purpose built, fully owned RL stadium - perhaps you can clarify the parallels with Jack Robinson and Wigan selling a ground to avoid going bust rather than selling a ground to build a new one?

Why would we want to Give TW the opportunity to price chip or pull out? Do you think they would just agree a price then say "hey stay as long as you like, we'll put the cash aside and pay you the same regardless of what you decide to do".

Good work Columbo. Zero basis in fact, but a nice wigan slant. I can almost smell the tenant jealousy.

The funding hole that you made up? Imaginary Wigan thin ice is easier to dance across than real, solid ground.

The project has been priced, funding is set aside and the project bonded. The stadium will be built just fine, but thanks for your concern.

That huge funding gap you refer to must have been plugged pretty well given Tony Colquitt's comments on the BBC website today:

"It not only allows us to invest in the 17 on the park, but alongside that we'll be announcing shortly plans for training facilities and a centre of excellence, which will be on a par with anything out there in the league."

What he Said

[Padge]

So the directors didn't have to chuck in a couple of million quid last year to ensure the project went ahead?

[FearTheVee]

So the directors didn't have to chuck in a couple of million quid last year to ensure the project went ahead?

I certainly don't recall that being reported - as you seem so sure, perhaps you could give me a link that shows the directors put in cash over and above what was always planned to be invested in the scheme? Has it crossed your mind that the directors always planned to put cash into the stadium project? Why does the equity conversion signify a project funding shortfall?

[Lobbygobbler]

If Saints have a poor season next year I can see them getting some very poor attendances next year

They are not exactly one of our better supported clubs, at least not at KR.

[Dave T]

If Saints have a poor season next year I can see them getting some very poor attendances next year

They are not exactly one of our better supported clubs, at least not at KR.

Yes they are. They are absolutely one of our best supported clubs. What are you talking about?

[Lobbygobbler]

Yes they are. They are absolutely one of our best supported clubs. What are you talking about?

Not relative to their general final position in the league table (usually top 2).

[Padge]

I certainly don't recall that being reported - as you seem so sure, perhaps you could give me a link that shows the directors put in cash over and above what was always planned to be invested in the scheme? Has it crossed your mind that the directors always planned to put cash into the stadium project? Why does the equity conversion signify a project funding shortfall?

July 10th 2009

It was reported that the Saints Directors had to inject

[Dave T]

Not relative to their general final position in the league table (usually top 2).

4th highest crowds this year. That absolutely makes them one of out best supported clubs, which is what you said they weren't.

[FearTheVee]

Or in other words somebody doesn't believe our figures stack up so we have to put some cash in.

Meanwhile back in the real world what actually happened was

Edited July 20, 2010 by FearTheVee

[Padge]

Meanwhile back in the real world what actually happened was

[FearTheVee]

The club couldn't afford the stadium without a cash injection. End of.

The timing was curious as well, the club, along with others, had recently had the warning from the RFL about stadia.

The directors had to bite the bullet to get the thing moving, they were willing to drift along in a vain hope that someone would come up with some money until the RFL put the squeeze on.

How much of a wing and a prayer is this thing still on.

You clearly don't understand how balance sheets or equity conversion works, so I'll let you continue your fog-knitting exercise.

Edited July 20, 2010 by FearTheVee

[Padge]

You clearly don't understand how balance sheets or equity conversion works, so I'll let you continue your fog-knitting exercise.

you keep believing the press releases and leave the figuring out of the truth to the big boys.

[FearTheVee]

you keep believing the press releases and leave the figuring out of the truth to the big boys.

The truth like you saying:

So the directors didn't have to chuck in a couple of million quid last year to ensure the project went ahead?

When in truth

Edited July 20, 2010 by FearTheVee

[Padge]

The truth like you saying:

So the directors didn't have to chuck in a couple of million quid last year to ensure the project went ahead?

When in truth

[bewareshadows]

So why do it, if it wasn't to paper over the flakey finances. Timing as well project stalled, RFL give Saints kick up @rse, Saints must do something about flakey finances quick to convince RFL project will go ahead.

The truth is out there.

Like I said keep feeding on the press releases.

Why has there been an 8 month delay in the project by the way?

Padge is the Pope still Catholic if he's a Saint?

I imagine your answer would be no.

You've been shown to have little inside knowledge or an understanding of equity yet you carp on.

For a little over a year now the funding has been in place. Anyone going to tender would not rush such an important contract, only a fool would take the first offer. I too have had my doubts but now there is actually a builder in place I see no reason to doubt.

Also you mention that the directors were happy to let the whole thing rumble along, I think you'll find the opposite is true. Knowsley Road is loss making by some

[Padge]

Padge is the Pope still Catholic if he's a Saint?

I imagine your answer would be no.

You've been shown to have little inside knowledge or an understanding of equity yet you carp on.

For a little over a year now the funding has been in place. Anyone going to tender would not rush such an important contract, only a fool would take the first offer. I too have had my doubts but now there is actually a builder in place I see no reason to doubt.

Also you mention that the directors were happy to let the whole thing rumble along, I think you'll find the opposite is true. Knowsley Road is loss making by some

[giwildgo]

Very good, but why the eight month delay if everything was in place.

I don't necessarily agree with all your conspiracies about the St. Helens stadium move, but from previous experience of the tender process for major construction projects - 8 months is not a reasonable time period that can justify the delay. I've been involved in bigger and more complex projects that post planning permission have completed construction tender within 8 weeks.

There does appear to be a bit of smoke and mirrors regarding the funding of the project over the last year than covered by the press releases, but thats not unexpected in the current economic climate. At the end of the day I don't think that most Saints fans will bother as long as they are in the new stadium by 2012 which is looking all the more likely now. It's just a shame that some have to troll about Wigan's situation (which has no relevance whatsoever and is an arrangement that our club appear content with) rather than rely on the significant positives for their club.